Hot take: Pain Res and Pop are the most healthiest regression perks in the game.
I think it was discussed many times before…
These 2 perks are healthiest because - they are simply rewarding killers with good amount of gen regression for doing their job.
Find survivor — Down survivor — Put survivor on a scourge hook (first reward) — Kick the gen with Pop (second reward)
I think these 2 perks for a long time now are the most viable, and they are feel ok now after couple of nerfs. I remember they were super strong before.
Btw, I notice there are so many killer players with Nowhere to hide… Where's Ultimate weapon gone? :D
Comments
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Why is this a hot take?
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On my solo q matches I see people in end-game chat blaming and making fun of killers using these 2 perks.
Perhaps… People now think it's lame to run these 2 perks at the same time.
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They're bad design IMO. They're only relevant at the very top level when both sides are equal, but in most normal games, they either help a Killer win more when they're already at an advantage therefore making below average squads have no chance of a comeback and they just get 4k'd at 4-5 gens, or they're completely useless against super SWFs that rush 4 gens before a Killer can even get a single hook anyway.
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The issue with pop/pain res is that they suffer from success. They implement the most healthy working formula for regression: reward killer for winning chases&getting hooks (ideally separate) which, inevitably, results in these perks being better when used with killers that exceed at doing their basic job already.
Slowdown perks that dont require you to get hooks resulted in excessive slugging.
Slowdown perks that dont require you to get downs resulted in hit&run and killers never truly committing to chases.
Slowdown perks that require killer to just kick gens to make them work resulted in killers endlessly kicking gens
Slowdown perks that dont require killer to do anything result in killers camping/tunnelling even more freely.
Slowdown perks that required killer to get a kill for them to work resulted in killers hardtunnelling a targeted person.
Current slowdown meta is the best we can get. It just works better on meta killers and remains useful in 3v1 (doesnt even become better, just remains useable).
Either you have perks that reward killer for winning and then killers inevitably start snowballing most games with them or you have perks that give killer value regardless and you have killers getting clutch wins with the perk value.
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I feel like to me personally the issue is slowdown in general. IMO gen slowdown and gen repair speed buffs should both be gutted and gen speeds should just be standardized and consistent so the game can be balanced around other things instead. I never run slowdown because I find it to make games extremely boring, like even if they helped me clutch a win against a super sweaty gen rush squad I didn't exactly have fun stressing in a match like that, whereas if I hadn't steamrolled a below average team with my slowdown Perks that probably would've been a more fair, chill match. But that's just how I like playing. I understand why other players feel like slowdown is a necessity. I just think it shouldn't be THE meta period.
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In isolation, sure, but the problem with them is that they exist in Dead By Daylight, to be a little playful with the phrasing.
On their own, they do have a very healthy design, because they encourage successfully ending chases on different survivors to make full use out of. When they're both run together, the problems start to creep in because they do represent a fairly huge amount of gen progress removed for a single hook, but in their current state they aren't too strong.
The real problem is that they can be run WITH the other regression perks. What is healthy and fair in isolation (and even arguably when paired) becomes obnoxious and overwhelming when brought in a full stack of gen defence perks. It's not optimal to do this on the killer side, but enough people think it is that they're going to do it, which brings the frustration to the forefront.
If we had a state of the game where you could only bring one gen defence perk, or something like one direct percentage removal perk and one gen blocking perk, or something, they'd definitely be the healthiest. In the actual state of the game… they're still part of a problem.
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I agree. Both need downs, so the 6.1.0 situation can't happen with them and they also disincentivise (or at least try to) some mean killer strategies. Pop is terrible for camping because you need to get to the gen to kick it and Pain Res doesn't work while you're tunneling.
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Counter hot take: gen speeds should be static on both sides. No slow downs or speed increases.
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Kinda vibe with this, I still run pain res because running no slowdown is asking to lose with perks like deja vu, resilience and prove theyself so present but if gen speed buffs and gen regression didn't exist I actually think the game could be balanced a lot easier. Unfortunately I think we're too far down this road and it'll be impossible to get either out of the meta without a 6.1 style patch.
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Yes, but this is very unlikely to happen because that's how casual players can cheese a win on more skilled player (who may not be using said slowdown or not enough of it because they would be tempted to use more fun options).
That generally goes for a lot of still persistent things - if you streamlined things like that so killers play optimal regardless of how mean they intend to play, then survivors will have a very hard time as a lot of pub killers dont play optimally for various reasons.
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Well, right now - I think without any gen perks from both sides, the game will be a "tunnel simulator" based on how fast survivors can do gens, if they are actually doing them (against a decent team). We can try it in custom match tho, but I think the current gen speed is not optimized for killers not having any regression.
I think even if they remove all gen perks - they will need to drastically increase gen time and make it more punishing for killers to tunnel.
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Ooooof, I would argue with that actually.
I remember how it use to be, but I hate the random aspect of hexes in this game tbh. I can't remember how many times my hexes were cleansed at the beginning of the match, and at the same time in the next match they couldn't find it or didn't care so it was up till the end, and the perk itself was very boring to use, and so strong and "braindead" it actually felt like cheating.
"All or nothing" perk based on where it was placed - I don't like this at all.
I think if player can't control some aspects and only hoping for a good rng besides map rng - it's not healthy at all.
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Unfortunately that means the faster killers with stronger powers that can end chases quickly and those that can pressure gens better will undoubtedly be the best and everyone else gets left in the dust in comparison. No one else would ever be worth using unless you just like playing with a severe disadvantage.
Post edited by Shinkiro on2 -
i think surge and pain res are most healthy regression perks but surge is under powered, numerical speaking.
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Pop isnt thta great anymore, 20% is meh.
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I don't know about hot take. But I wanna point out that the reason why they're so popular is that they're not only strong, but universally good on all killers. There's still room to buff more niche slowdown like Thana or Dying Light.
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Exactly this.
Skill expression between killers would be much more static and predictable.
As it stands, killers with less mobility can use gen slowdown/regression to keep up with the pace of the game, while high mobility killers can afford to use other perks and pressure more effectively directly. You do get the high mobility killers using slowdown, which can be oppressive against uncoordinated survivors with no gen perks/toolboxes, but then you can get coordinated survivors that do have gen perks who can cope. The point is the range/variety in capabilities.
Without that, you'd just have Blights dominating with no recourse for survivors, and Trappers falling behind with no way to catch up.
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Healthy for killer absolutely awful for solo que
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Healthy in this sense means is discourages camping/tunneling or rewards not camping/tunneling. That's good regardless of SWF or Solo queue.
Pop is absolutely healthy, you can only get good value from it if you make as many hooks as possible, so you're rewarded for not tunneling, and you can only use it if you leave the hook, so it discourages camping.
Pain Res is a little less clear cut. Being only active on the first scourge hook of a given survivor, it still technically works if you tunnel.
Old Pain Res was actually much better. It had a lesser effect but on every hook, so more hooks again meant better value. It also originally had info by alerting you to the gen with the most progress, which encouraged you to leave the hook to pressure that gen. But this was deemed too much of a good thing as high mobility killers could essentially instantly pressure exactly where they needed to.
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I am still not happy with the was PainResonance evolved. Yes, getting 100% regression is strong, but it got this double restrictions: 4 tokens and only one token per survivor. I know that part of the changes were done to prevent farming, but it feels so strange and unintuitive why we have both restrictions. Would the perk be that much more oppressive, if you could just hook survivors 4 times, the restriction being a 1min cooldown for each survivor, but having a bit more freedom? Also, you have absolutely no control over which gens are hit, so if the surviviors finsih their most worked on gen just half a second before you hook, you could potential waste that full token on a 1 or 2% gen, and you wouldn't even know it.
Don't get me wrong, PainRes, but its a farcry from its original inception. Original RainRes was my favorite perk, ever, just because you could regress gens on the fly without actually kicking them. My dream PainRes would be just a 100% regression pool, with each hook giving a max regression of 15% and it lasts till the 100% are used up.
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This is the fix we need, but not the fix BHVR thinks we deserve. I bet a community poll would back this up.
I feel gen regression is the only thing being talked about because 'high mmr' players are too far out of touch to see any other option. 'Tunnel Vision' if you will (Though not to be confused with tunneling), will keep players from thinking outside the box.
This isnt a blast to anyone, so please don't respond all offended. Just offering a perspective check.
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Both of the perks are great and healthy for the game, what doesn’t make them healthy is when S and A+ killers run them. If you go against a trapper or a ghostface using pain res pop it’s whatever you know but when nurse Billy or blight run those it becomes a whole bloodbath because they can easily hook someone on pain res, get across the map to the gen of their choice to apply pop then rinse and repeat. That’s what sucks when killer perks get nerfed because it’s not the fact that the perk is too strong it’s the types of killers using them are too strong
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I feel like atot of people don't recognize this. Perks like PR and pop are win or perks. If I'm running around getting downs left and right do I really need regression? If I'm having a bad game or the survivors are on point is when regression is need. Imo ruin was still the healthiest regression.
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Yea I still dont see whats wrong with either of them.
Reworked pain res is pretty chef's kiss where its at right now.
They "might" have to do something with pop in restrictions but I dont really care personally either way. I would understand if it needs to be like pain res where its limited.
Right now I think they are perfectly fine though.
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Hex: Ruin? Nah bro, I'm completely against it.
The game is already have the rng with maps, Hexes are another rng. While Map rng is healthy because it adds some versatility to your matches for you to not get stale\burnout - rng with your perks\gameplay is completely the opposite.
Player should not hope for rng, rather than their knowledge and skill. Hexes are working more like rng based on their placement.
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