70 seconds hook timer aftermath. What do you think of the change? Good or bad?
Comments
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Survivors still let teammates die on hook.
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Now survivor dont even need to come to unhook anytime soon someone is hooked.
Why waste time when you can, you know… do all the gens everyone are doing and then go to the unhook at the very last second without the hooked survivor even going into the second stage?
Horrible change. Heavier punish to killers that dont camp instead of the ones camping.
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Played survivor. Was left on hook for approximately 135 seconds (no the killer didn't camp) and got rescued. Escaped through the gate. Not sure how I feel about that but it was pretty funny.
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there is literally a huge difference between 3v1 that is actually considered as the best possible thing for the killer to do (but is NOT always achievable) where one survivor is on hook and 3v1 when a survivor is actually dead. Dead survivor can't generate pressure on killer, while hooked survivor actually can be a tool for generating pressure on the killer. Even better if that survivor has Deli ready, because they can absolutely nullify every killer's attempt of generating hook pressure, at least 2 teammates can peacefully do gens while nobody needs to go for unhook.
Think about why Deli is the best survivor perk in the game a bit.
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while hooked survivor actually can be a tool for generating pressure on the killer.
How?
How does an incapacitated survivor generate 'pressure'? What is this incapacitated survivor going to do? Do they do gens? Do they bodyblock? Do they grant speed boosts, or heal their fellow survivors?Or are you so caught up in hook-denial strategies that you feel a nervousness at the idea of survivors being able to unhook their ally without it costing an extra hookstate, and you misidentify that as 'pressure'?
Think about why Deli is the best survivor perk in the game a bit.
If it was better to leave survivors on the hook, then Deliverance, a perk whose only effect is that it gets a survivor -off- the hook, would not be the best perk, would it?
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How does an incapacitated survivor generate 'pressure'? What is this incapacitated survivor going to do? Do they do gens? Do they bodyblock? Do they grant speed boosts, or heal their fellow survivors?
killer is supposed to not just put a survivor on a random hook they find. They are actually supposed to hook them in a strategical position when they can actually pressure multiple gens and be aware of situations around them. Also, good hook pressure from killer also consists of successfully forcing a beneficial trade, or another survivor unhooking this one so that unhooked one becomes an easy target.
Greeding a survivor on hook means killer can't expect any of these scenarios to happen, even if they strategize around hooks, leaving minimum of other 2-3 survivors doing gens and additional time being wasted. Time is the most important resource for the killer and traversal of the map to crucial points isn't instant, even for high mobility killers.
The hooked survivor is being extremelty useful IF they don't attempt to kobe without Deli or intentionally fail skillchecks on hook.
Or are you so caught up in hook-denial strategies that you feel a nervousness at the idea of survivors being able to unhook their ally without it costing an extra hookstate, and you misidentify that as 'pressure'?
i haven't mentioned hook denial strategies anywhere, they have never be meant to win the match, just to annoy the killer, whilst being quite unhealthy due to forcing an unhealthy playstyle (bleeding out)
If it was better to leave survivors on the hook, then Deliverance, a perk whose only effect is that it gets a survivor -off- the hook, would not be the best perk, would it?
did you like stop and started thinking for at least a moment? Can you solve a literal 2+2 to see why Deli is the best possible perk for these cases?
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killer is supposed to not just put a survivor on a random hook they find. They are actually supposed to hook them in a strategical position when they can actually pressure multiple gens and be aware of situations around them.
This did not get nerfed at all. 10 extra seconds on hook does not change this in any way, shape, or form.
Also, good hook pressure from killer also consists of successfully forcing a beneficial trade
Mostly achieved through a method called 'camping', which this change aims to address.
or another survivor unhooking this one so that unhooked one becomes an easy target.
And that's tunnelling.
You're not beating the 'obsessed with defending the hook' allegations here.
leaving minimum of other 2-3 survivors doing gens and additional time being wasted
If you have one survivor on hook and 3 on gens, you, as the killer, are wasting your own time. Survivors aren't doing anything to you, you are wasting your own time.
i haven't mentioned hook denial strategies anywhere, they have never be meant to win the match, just to annoy the killer, whilst being quite unhealthy due to forcing an unhealthy playstyle (bleeding out)
Sorry, I meant unhook denial strategies.
did you like stop and started thinking for at least a moment? Can you solve a literal 2+2 to see why Deli is the best possible perk for these cases?
Did you? Or did you just jump to a wild conclusion that fits your bias and then ran with it, while now trying to brush off any further examination of your statement by calling it an easy conclusion?
Again, if being on the hook is such a power move for survivors, why would they equip a perk that gets them off the hook?
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This argument is so flawed, that I don't even know where to begin to deconstruct it...
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Perfectly said. Tunneling at 5 gens is now better.
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Even with this, I completely agree: hook trading now just kills the entire momentum.
In order to fix this, they'd really have to buff to so many killers to A/A+ tier.
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This did not get nerfed at all. 10 extra seconds on hook does not change this in any way, shape, or form.
tell me you've never truly experienced gameplay at high skill level without telling me so.
Mostly achieved through a method called 'camping', which this change aims to address.
camping is extremely situational and useless if survivors actually have at least a bit of game knowledge.
And that's tunnelling.
and that's called unhooking a survivor too early, giving killer the full value of tunneling or just trading.
If you have one survivor on hook and 3 on gens, you, as the killer, are wasting your own time. Survivors aren't doing anything to you, you are wasting your own time.
again, i have idea where to look for other survivors, and that puts me at 50/50 chance of actually finding other survivor reliably enough and getting another hook, next.
Did you? Or did you just jump to a wild conclusion that fits your bias and then ran with it, while now trying to brush off any further examination of your statement by calling it an easy conclusion?
Again, if being on the hook is such a power move for survivors, why would they equip a perk that gets them off the hook?
Deli is the most powerful tool when used in anti-tunneling builds, where you greed your hook stage to the last 1-2s, completely nullifying killer's hook pressure, after which you unhook yourself and either force killer's attention for another 2+ mins if you are good at chases and DS positioning or try to act as a mere waste of killer's time while again, 2 of your teammates spend time on gens completely reliably knowing killer is having full attention on something that isn't gen they are repairing.
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Exactly this.
It's still hard to judge early, but I think it's true!
Correct.
Gen jockeys make gen blocking perks even more necessary now.
I massively disagree, hook grabs had to go for good, and borrowed time basekit was needed.
Pretty much yes, a mess.
This is not true, this is terrible for competitive and public matches. Even Knightlight said survivors just hang on hook forever lol.
True, but even survivors in pubs will realise pretty quickly with time passing...
That's quite of a good reason, that is true, but this makes the time for doing gens for the 1 survivor just doing gens even worse. Now you HAVE TO tunnel pretty much, and force the game into a 3v1 ASAP.
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0 change at all levels of this gameplay, could take the 10 seconds out and not notice a difference.
Knightlight did not say that either.0 -
Tunnelling is a crutch in public games. If you've used that crutch enough you can't win anything without a crutch that would explain why you feel that way. It still doesn't change the fact it's a crutch though.
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This still gives time to quickly finish a gen before unhooking, or leave it 99% before the killer comes back, and much more time to get rush to the endgame and open the exit gates.
I complained about tunneling, not slugging.
Exactly, how can you not notice XD ?
Yeah, also remember hook grabs were removed too, for the better of course!
Somehow they get this changed, but don't rework Knock out on Doctor/Legion on Lery's hahahahaha, that for solo Q is AWFUL.
Knowing when is the right time to camp, and when not to, really takes a lot of macro pressure knowledge.
But with this change implemented, you might as well do it for the very first hook, and then tunnel!
If it wasn't a always a good idea before to leave them hanged longer, now it's 100% a much better idea.
Exactly, I agree with almost all of this. I think we'd need a demonstration to demonstrate them the impact of these changes.
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I almost entirely agree with this.
In a certain sense, this now might unironically be true now, with 2 minutes and 20 seconds of total hook time, + eventual Reassurances, + all the time it takes to chase them, DS, Dead hard, etc, that there are some situations where it might as well be worth it to just leave the survivor on the ground, even if you don't get value from hook perks.
Because it's 4 minutes bleed out vs all of that. And the survivor very rarely now has Soul Guard, or We're gonna live forever.
Not all situations, but for sure many more.
The cruel thing, of course, is that it's very bad for solo Q.
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If the killer wants to tunnel, and force the game into a 3v1 ASAP, they'll do it anyway no matter what.
Situations where the killer is a bit far away from the hook, and then comes back, will happen exactly like before.
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I mean, 4 survivors always VERY EFFICIENT on gens.
Also, fun fact, with proper stealth builds, you might have situations where 4 people are effectively on gens for a short amount of time. But that requires a lot of coordination.
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If a killer really wants to tunnel, they'll do it anyway in this situation. If you unhook them early, and there's no Off The Record or DS, you do them a massive favour.
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I think it's fine honestly. It's one of those changes that if it wasn't in the patch notes then 90% of players wouldn't even notice.
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It's not a "crutch", it's literally the META, the Most Effective Tactic Available at the moment, and a game mechanic. There's literally absolutely 0 reason, apart from fun or archives or human empathy, why you should not do it.
After the game is a 3v1, now actually the macro game is insanely more effective.
I don't think anyone should feel bad for using it when you need it, and actually using it is a way of protesting against the Devs, to change the game after the negative feedback pressure.
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- It doesn't but it also increases camping time for killers. Which will dissuade the play style
- That is such a stretch because anti-camp unhooks hardly ever happen naturally within the match. I see it very typically with noobie killers
- Tunneling can be necessary if you need to apply immediate pressure. An additional 10 seconds won't affect this because the survivor is already on hook. Turneling situations happens from unhooks the most.
- Tunneling can be detrimental if not done correctly. Again, an extra 10 seconds shouldn't matter people the survivor is already hooked and not making progress
- That strategy is only valid if done by a coordinated SWF. It doesn't happen in most matches.
- Again, how? The extra 10 seconds just help delays the 2nd stage. Nothing to do with hook trades
- Fair, but you gotta remember that even if gens got another 10 seconds increase, those killers will still be bad. Any chance that benefits survivors they will naturally suffer the most.
Survivor perks kept getting nerfed that last year, and it seems like they couldn't catch a break. Let survivors have this win for once
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The hook timer has not really affected my games and I haven’t really noticed it when I play killer. On survivor though, I have been able to stay on a generator that I was close to finishing without having to rush to help my teammate.
Though I don’t think a large base of the survivors are taking advantage of this in the same way. I’ve had many of them leaving gens and quickly unhooking in SoloQ. I think it’s probably doing what it is intended to do, and just make things worse for campers. All the extra time spent at the hook equals more generators being completed.
I don’t think it’s gonna do anything for tunneling. Put them on the hook leave them there go apply pressure elsewhere and whenever they are unhooked, the tunneler will just go right back after them. But again, I haven’t noticed the change really affecting much other than my own personal reminder that I can afford to finish the gen before unhooking.
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Killer mains are just being dramatic when they say it has caused more slugging.This is my view.
When we had AFC proposed we had lots of posts saying this would trigger constantly, the how was never clear.
When we had 8 gen kick limit we had posts saying this would would be abused by survivors, the how was never clear.
When people somehow argued the MFT nerf was a buff, the how was never clear.
What's good for those arguing against the change compared to the past: the fearmongering on those old changes were quickly disproven when the game went live. AFC and 8 gen never kicked in other than the scenarios they were supposed to, MFT dropped in usage. But now Killers, who can't see what survivors are doing, can justify everything based off this change.
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tell me you've never truly experienced gameplay at high skill level without telling me so.Tell me you've lost the argument without telling me so.
The question @Firellius is asking is relatively simple: why would survivors leave a survivor on the hook if the killer is not camping? Let's imagine the best survivors in the world, we don't even have to talk about average survivor matches, let's get elite survivors in there. Why do they not want to get the unhook?
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Its giving a bit more breathing room as it should do, the gen times were to allow killers to have more time to pressure not to have more time to camp, this is a necessary balance from 6.1.0 that's been long overdue, if you say otherwise you've not played for long.
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Yeah that's what I meant when I said "...or are actively the thing they were trying to prevent" thanks for confirming what I said 👍
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tell me you've never truly experienced gameplay at high skill level without telling me so.
Returning to the 'I am not going to explain my point, just gonna call you bad if you don't agree with it' argumentation. This does not help your case.
camping is extremely situational and useless if survivors actually have at least a bit of game knowledge.
So is defending the hook something that's really important on high MMR, or is it something that survivors can easily counter on high MMR? Pick something.
and that's called unhooking a survivor too early, giving killer the full value of tunneling or just trading.
It's still tunnelling.
again, i have idea where to look for other survivors, and that puts me at 50/50 chance of actually finding other survivor reliably enough and getting another hook, next.
Now you're telling me you have never experienced gameplay at high skill level. You should watch Otz sometimes and see how his game sense kicks in. It's not a 50/50 when he plays, because he makes deductions about where survivors would reasonably go.
Plus, you have a plethora of aura-reading perks at your disposal.
Deli is the most powerful tool when used in anti-tunneling builds, where you greed your hook stage to the last 1-2s, completely nullifying killer's hook pressure, after which you unhook yourself and either force killer's attention for another 2+ mins if you are good at chases and DS positioning or try to act as a mere waste of killer's time while again, 2 of your teammates spend time on gens completely reliably knowing killer is having full attention on something that isn't gen they are repairing.
Again, this is not showing, in any way, how survivors use hooks to pressure the killer, at all. You're getting OFF the hook here. Those extra 10 seconds don't help your team here, UNLESS the killer is camping the hook.
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Sadly have to garee. This change comes fromo a place of good intentions, however, the execution was not thought through.
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Any change that makes camping worse is good.
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I didn't feel affected as killer that much, but it has already won several games for us, when I played survivor. I think that's the most optimal outcome you can hope for.
Simply don't unhook until killer found their chase and use the time to work on gens.
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because hooked survivor will become dead weight when unhooked unless they have anti-tunneling perks they can use aggressively or can get to a safe tile for extended chase. Having unhooked survivor hop on a gen is wrong move in many occasions because killer will literally look for a chase around gens and we will have a case where that same survivor will be hooked again.
Returning to the 'I am not going to explain my point, just gonna call you bad if you don't agree with it' argumentation. This does not help your case.
i have literally explained my point multiple times, but it doesn't reach you by the looks.
So is defending the hook something that's really important on high MMR, or is it something that survivors can easily counter on high MMR? Pick something.
first, let's exclude imaginary high MMR because it acts like it doesn't exist in this game. And defending hook + applying pressure to survivors over hooks has become next to impossible against actually competent teams running perks like Deli, Wicked, Reassurance and similar. NOT in the way you think they are using it.
Now you're telling me you have never experienced gameplay at high skill level. You should watch Otz sometimes and see how his game sense kicks in. It's not a 50/50 when he plays, because he makes deductions about where survivors would reasonably go.
Plus, you have a plethora of aura-reading perks at your disposal.
that works extremely well until you come up to survivors that are actually aware you will try to predict where they will go and won't be as predictable as again, your average team. Again, these survivors are rare to come by in pubs because of catastrophically bad matchmaking.
Again, this is not showing, in any way, how survivors use hooks to pressure the killer, at all. You're getting OFF the hook here. Those extra 10 seconds don't help your team here, UNLESS the killer is camping the hook.
well, looks like there really is no point in trying to explain why the change is extremely impactful on actual high skill levels anymore, i'll end up talking to a wall again. Have a nice day.
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I haven't been impacted directly to where I notice but none the less to be fair to the overall state of the game Behavior needs to change the values to reassurance and monstrous to compensate other wise its a direct buff and nerf that are not part of the roadmap.
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Just gonna repeat that it could be removed from the game and 0 changes would be seen.
Has had 0 effect on everyones gameplay. Including people that play this as a career on twitch.0 -
because hooked survivor will become dead weight when unhooked unless they have anti-tunneling perks they can use aggressively or can get to a safe tile for extended chaseBut we're right back to its not the hook that pressures the killers, it's that the killer wants to camp or tunnel the survivor out, which is exactly the type of gameplay this is meant to reduce.
A survivor literally cannot be more dead weight than they are when hooked. They can do absolutely nothing to advance the survivors primary objective, they can't heal, they can't distract the killer, etc. The only difference between a hooked survivor and a dead one is the hooked survivor has the perspective of being useful again. A hooked survivor only impacts the game if
A) the killer chooses to focus on that hook, which the 10 second change is meant to address
or
B) the survivors rescue the hooked player/he rescues himself.
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I haven't noticed. I mean, it IS a thing. It's just that I still go to second stage when I would've before, and it hasn't much impacted me as killer because survivors always try to unhook literally 5 seconds after I look away. So, I mean, whatever, right?
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since killers win 60% of their games apparently .. so define a win. if its 3k then if i played 10 games and got a 3k in only 4 while in the other 6 everyone escaped.. then you'd say "Oh Skill Issue" well im saying if survivors are only escaping 4 out of every 10 games (which is BS and you know it ) then by your logic thats a skill issue for survivors.
Secondly this is a party game not a competitive game . it is a party game . if it is where are the ranked leader boards? when is the next DBD Esports tournament . you people see content creators and try to emulate them .. thats why this game is in the poor state it is .
lastly nothing is busted ? really ? survivors have literally EVERY single advantage in this game .. want proof .. im a better killer then survivor by far .. my survivor rank is Iri 1 .. killer no where close to that . but keep coping there is a reason Killers are leaving this game in droves .. i did for over 2 years .0 -
Any second a survivor spends on hook is good for the killer, unless they are looking to camp and tunnel that survivor.
If the killer is not camping and if they aren't going to tunnel the unhooked survivor, it would always be objectively optimal to unhook as soon as possible. Any second that survivor spends on hook is wasted time they could be spending contributing to the round in countless ways instead. It's only if the killer is camping and tunnelling that this changes, because then the survivor's hook time also wastes time of the killer, and even if they aren't hardcamping they will periodically be returning to hook so as to be there once the survivor gets unhooked for the tunnel. So the longer you can delay the unhooks in those cases, the more of the killer's time you waste, the longer you can delay that survivor being taken out of the round and the killer's focus shifting to other things. The more likely you can also make it that the killer will grow antsy and venture out to pressure other survivors and the unhook then happening without the killer right around the hook, potentially losing the unhooked survivor or at least giving them a headstart, time to heal, hide, or such.
If you aren't camping or tunnelling, survivors leaving others on hooks for longer periods of time is actually beneficial for you. You will build more pressure on the survivors that can actually contribute to the round, have a survivor less to worry about that is not contributing, and the survivors can actually end up losing due to "greeding" unhooks, getting snowballed.
Now, camping and tunnelling is often necessary to win against strong survivor teams, at least on the relatively less strong killers. But if you're a competent killer player, around 90% of groups you'll meet won't constitute a "strong team", and you won't have big issues winning regardless, not even having to camp or tunnel to begin with. That goes up to 99+% if you're a really good killer player. And for the rest, well, it's not like the up to 16% more hook time makes things all the more challenging, particularly given that this only comes into play if the survivors actually only unhook past the 60 seconds.
I think overall this is a slight change to make camping and tunnelling a little less attractive, but it won't have too much of an impact on most matches. That it makes the anti-facecamp mechanic a little more relevant is not a bad thing, because unless the killer is literally facecamping, that mechanic is irrelevant. You can stand a certain distance away from the hook to prevent it from triggering while still being able to intercept unhook attempts, if another survivor is around the hook it pauses altogether (ridiculously enough even if that survivor is slugged), and other survivors don't see the progress bar so they can't know whether it would be better not to be around the hook or whether they need to get the unhook.
A little thought experiment: Imagine if they simply removed hook timers completely. I'm not saying this would be a good change - much as it may often feel bad, I think camping and the urgency and risks and dangers and snowball potential it yields are integral to the gameplay experience, the excitement, the frustration, the relief, all of that gets people hooked emotionally on the game. But still, if we imagine a scenario where hook timers are removed, survivors would certainly not leave people on hook indefinitely. But camping as we know it would stop existing. Maybe something to try in a modifier.
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Any second a survivor spends on hook is good for the killer, unless they are looking to camp and tunnel that survivor.
not only unless they are looking to camp and tunnel that survivor, but also in majority of other cases, especially when killer knows how to strategize around hooks.
If the killer is not camping and if they aren't going to tunnel the unhooked survivor, it would always be objectively optimal to unhook as soon as possible. Any second that survivor spends on hook is wasted time they could be spending contributing to the round in countless ways instead. It's only if the killer is camping and tunnelling that this changes, because then the survivor's hook time also wastes time of the killer, and even if they aren't hardcamping they will periodically be returning to hook so as to be there once the survivor gets unhooked for the tunnel. So the longer you can delay the unhooks in those cases, the more of the killer's time you waste, the longer you can delay that survivor being taken out of the round and the killer's focus shifting to other things. The more likely you can also make it that the killer will grow antsy and venture out to pressure other survivors and the unhook then happening without the killer right around the hook, potentially losing the unhooked survivor or at least giving them a headstart, time to heal, hide, or such.
going for an unhook asap is the most predictable thing and ab easy call for killer to return to hook so that they can get another hook. Unhooked survivor is also not even safe to do gens if they are unhooked too soon, because in that case, they will be easy prey.
I had gazzilions situations where survivor unhooked another one asap, i returned to patrol a gen near the hook and boom, unhooked survivor repairing it, getting downed and hooked again. Think a bit about why anti-tunneling perks, the most powerful survivor perks, get deactivated prematurely if you start repairing a gen.
If you aren't camping or tunnelling, survivors leaving others on hooks for longer periods of time is actually beneficial for you. You will build more pressure on the survivors that can actually contribute to the round, have a survivor less to worry about that is not contributing, and the survivors can actually end up losing due to "greeding" unhooks, getting snowballed.
ohh, it's very beneficial, especially when hooked survivor has Deli active and ready for usage combined with anti-tunneling perks, but NOT for the actual countreing of tunneling.
Now, camping and tunnelling is often necessary to win against strong survivor teams, at least on the relatively less strong killers. But if you're a competent killer player, around 90% of groups you'll meet won't constitute a "strong team", and you won't have big issues winning regardless, not even having to camp or tunnel to begin with. That goes up to 99+% if you're a really good killer player. And for the rest, well, it's not like the up to 16% more hook time makes things all the more challenging, particularly given that this only comes into play if the survivors actually only unhook past the 60 seconds.
not really, camping and tunneling are far more situational in high skill matches than they are in average pub ones, because survivors know how to easily counterplay both of those.
Only beneficial and low risk way to tunnel in high elo is if you actually manage to get a very quick down after match starts. But that doesn't really happen often, and puts tunneling at a very high risk spot to practise.
Proxy-camping is only beneficial if you are able to get a beneficial hook that overlooks a 3 gen or another similar strategic zone, other than that, camping is a free card for losing the match.
I think overall this is a slight change to make camping and tunnelling a little less attractive, but it won't have too much of an impact on most matches. That it makes the anti-facecamp mechanic a little more relevant is not a bad thing, because unless the killer is literally facecamping, that mechanic is irrelevant. You can stand a certain distance away from the hook to prevent it from triggering while still being able to intercept unhook attempts, if another survivor is around the hook it pauses altogether (ridiculously enough even if that survivor is slugged), and other survivors don't see the progress bar so they can't know whether it would be better not to be around the hook or whether they need to get the unhook.
this change will do nothing against your very average pub camper, people will still suicide on hooks and grief. Quite soon, we will see people begging for further nerfs for camping again.
This will only have impact in truly high skill gameplay, and not some minor impact, but an extreme one.
A little thought experiment: Imagine if they simply removed hook timers completely. I'm not saying this would be a good change - much as it may often feel bad, I think camping and the urgency and risks and dangers and snowball potential it yields are integral to the gameplay experience, the excitement, the frustration, the relief, all of that gets people hooked emotionally on the game. But still, if we imagine a scenario where hook timers are removed, survivors would certainly not leave people on hook indefinitely. But camping as we know it would stop existing. Maybe something to try in a modifier.
the worst possible balance decision around hooks ever.
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not only unless they are looking to camp and tunnel that survivor, but also in majority of other cases, especially when killer knows how to strategize around hooks.
I don't know what you mean by "strategize around hooks", but "camping" should capture all of that. There's periodic, patrol and proxi-camping, too.
But yes, survivors spending time on hook is good for a killer that is not looking to camp or tunnel or "strategize around hooks".
going for an unhook asap is the most predictable thing and ab easy call for killer to return to hook so that they can get another hook. Unhooked survivor is also not even safe to do gens if they are unhooked too soon, because in that case, they will be easy prey.
I had gazzilions situations where survivor unhooked another one asap, i returned to patrol a gen near the hook and boom, unhooked survivor repairing it, getting downed and hooked again. Think a bit about why anti-tunneling perks, the most powerful survivor perks, get deactivated prematurely if you start repairing a gen.
You are describing tunnelling. Yes, like I said, if the killer will tunnel the unhooked survivor, unhooking asap is regularly not a good thing, because then you give up on all of the time and attention the killer spends hovering around or returning to hook with the intention to be there once the survivor is unhooked. And like I had also mentioned, even if the killer is not hovering or returning to hook, not unhooking asap can be good because then you give the killer time to venture out and be otherwise occupied, giving the unhooked survivor time to hide, heal, have a headstart. But again, if you would be able to know for sure the killer is not going to tunnel, unhooking asap (without trading the second the hook happens, of course) would always be optimal for survivors. The more time survivors spend not on hook, the better for survivors. Camping and tunnelling are the only things that change this frankly obvious fact.
ohh, it's very beneficial, especially when hooked survivor has Deli active and ready for usage combined with anti-tunneling perks, but NOT for the actual countreing of tunneling.
I'm not sure how this is relevant, but if the survivor on hook has Deli, them not using it despite the killer not camping or tunnelling and staying on hook for no reason is a waste of time. The only thing that changes this is, again, the idea that the killer might return to hook to camp or tunnel at some point, therefore holding your Deli to waste more of their time.
not really, camping and tunneling are far more situational in high skill matches than they are in average pub ones, because survivors know how to easily counterplay both of those.
No, the difference is that in your average pub match you don't need to camp and tunnel to win, but you would of course usually win even more easily and decisively if you were to camp and tunnel. In high-level matches, camping and tunnelling become much more important because apart from on a select few killers, you cannot consistently build enough pressure and end chases fast enough to win with all 4 survivors standing, and need to take a survivor out of the match as quickly as possible to turn the tides.
Only beneficial and low risk way to tunnel in high elo is if you actually manage to get a very quick down after match starts. But that doesn't really happen often, and puts tunneling at a very high risk spot to practise.
While it's generally true that you want a quick down (not necessarily "very quick") to be comfortable with committing to a tunnel (or camp) against strong survivors, it isn't like it cannot work if you don't get an early down. A thousand different things still factor into that. But more importantly, "high elo" is the issue here: in this game's matchmaking system, there exists no high elo or regular high-skill matches, there is a low MMR cap and lax matchmaker and so even if you are on a winning streak of hundreds of matches, the survivors you face can and will most of the time still be fairly bad to mediocre players with a fraction of your hours, experience, and skill.
Proxy-camping is only beneficial if you are able to get a beneficial hook that overlooks a 3 gen or another similar strategic zone, other than that, camping is a free card for losing the match.
I disagree, the purpose of the camp often can simply be to take that survivor out of the match, creating a 3v1 scenario the killer can control much better and dominate. Or have survivors contest the hook and lose time, health states and lives in the process. But I won't go into a discussion about whether camping is a good strategy or not or when it is: if you don't even think camping is all that great a strategy, the increase in hook time should be even less concerning for you, since again, that only benefits the survivors if the killer camps.
this change will do nothing against your very average pub camper, people will still suicide on hooks and grief. Quite soon, we will see people begging for further nerfs for camping again.
It won't change much about camping and tunnelling in pubs because most pub players won't make use of the extra seconds, but it does give clever and especially coordinated survivors some more leverage against those strats by delaying unhooks a little longer, and can have a deterring effect on some killer players to not even attempt to play around hooks quite as much anymore given that survivors could leave someone on hook for a total 20 seconds longer and concentrate on gens.
This will only have impact in truly high skill gameplay, and not some minor impact, but an extreme one.
The impact will definitely be felt much more in high skill-matches (read: tournaments), but they can and do make their own rules, such as negating self-unhooks. And killer vs. survivor balance doesn't even matter in tournaments because both teams play both sides. Also, again, the reason why it will be felt more is because killers in tournament DbD usually camp and tunnel to get a survivor out as quickly as possible, so the 20 extra seconds will regularly matter.
the worst possible balance decision around hooks ever.
While that's certainly not the worst possible thing they could do to hook gameplay and while it is debatable how bad it would be or whether it could even be good, and apart from the fact that I had already mentioned that I also don't think essentially removing camping from the game would be a good decision, I only brought this up to make it obvious that leaving other survivors on hook just because you can is not beneficial, be that an indefinite amount of time or 69-139 seconds. For survivors, it is clearly beneficial to have survivors on the playing field contributing to the round at any possible second and not sitting on hooks. This only changes because of the existence of camping and tunnelling.
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I saw there was going to be a Zarr post and I thought how much can he type on 'leaving survivors on hook bad unless camped'.
I only brought this up to make it obvious that leaving other survivors on hook just because you can is not beneficialI think it's a solid hypothetical point even if it was not understood. If hook timers didn't exist, survivors would still need to unhook survivors.
2 -
I notice it but only because I’m looking for it. I like the change and in my opinion it does help a little bit. Let me explain how I see it:
As with many things in this game, this game is about bluffing and calling your opponent’s bluff. All Killers and Survivors play differently but at the root of the game there is this idea of respect vs greed. Pallets are obviously an easy way to see this concept. If a Killer respects a pallet, you know the Survivor can greed it. However, if the Killer calls the Survivor's bluff the Killer will be rewarded with a hit. If the Killer greeds a pallet then you know the Survivor can punish. If the Survivor plays it safe by pre dropping, this telegraphs to the Killer that the Killer is free to greed loops by cutting off Survivors since the Killer knows that the Survivor will waste animation time dropping pallets vaulting windows etc.
This concept of respect vs greed extends to the whole “hook game”. The Killer can camp the hook or patrol the map after hooking. If the Killer camps, the Survivors can punish this by staying on gens and trading hooks at the last minute. If the Killer patrols then the Survivors can punish this by going for a quick unhook.
The Killer can also bluff by acting like they aren’t camping when they actually are (proxy camping). The Survivors can call the bluff by staying on gens and forcing the Killer to go to them or else the gens get finished. If the Killer goes to patrol the map/gens then the hook is left open for a safe unhook.
Through the lens of greed, respect, conditioning, bluffing and calling, I have felt and noticed (again because I’m looking for it) that the 10 sec as small as it is does give the Survivors a little bit more room to punish the Killer.
Post edited by HerInfernalMajesty on1
