Killers could stand to struggle a bit more imo.
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The problem there is that if you change it for stronger Killers to feel challenged it's impossible for weaker ones, and if you change it for weaker ones the stronger ones just stomp. This isn't 1 to 1. It isn't the same issue.
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I've been trying to suggest them to entirely remove the wiggling minigame and change it for a "Press [key] to stop struggling" toggle just in case you have to turn it off for, idk, pity hatches.
As it is, the minigame does absolutely nothing. Whether you get hooked or not is entirely on the killer and the other survivors' hands, not yours. A 10% extra push to the side doesn't really deserve an entire game mechanic when not even perks interact with it.
Imagine if killers had to press random keys on the keyboard just to not drop a survivor. It's annoying and it doesn't accomplish anything. It's not worth having the mechanic at all.
Wiggling used to be worth it for the shortened wiggle time (and to this day I don't think 1 second less for a flawless minigame was that bad), but now it's just a formality. It's neither fun nor rewarding, so what even is the point.
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because a lot of killer power are trash. bloodlust is another poorly designed mechanic to fix bad balance in regards chase powers alongside camping and two staging which is more related to gen vs hooks. in many cases, a lot of killer power are worse then bloodlust so it makes sense for a lot of killer player to optimize bloodlust.
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Because sometimes you'd do it too fast and then it would drop the input.
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Killers need to catch survivors faster. I don't know what to tell you. Without Bloodlust, the kill rate would plummet.
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honestly at a case by case basis they should probably remove it from certain killers maybe or maybe have it at nerfed speeds for them
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That would be preferred but I feel like it's more realistic to suggest changes that are easier to implement.
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Oh yeah. I forgot about it.
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I can understand your take on the wiggle system, but bloodlust1 is still VERY necessary for lower tier killers that mostly play m1. Bloodlust 2 and 3 are not necessary anymore imo.
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I think when your at the point that you ask this question, you should consider taking a break. No offense.
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Except this was a response to a 'both sides' player who was making a claim that survivors should enjoy losing and having a giant disadvantage every game.
I personally think survivor is fun to play at the moment solely due to Iron Will being buffed which allows for a lot more skill expression. But I only play in a SWF these days.
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In my opinion, leaving the loop is not skill expression, but you do you.
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There is no such thing as a "trash tier Killer", only Killers that need an update and Killers the player is trash AT. :)
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I agree, Hold W is definitely not skillful play and should be gently discouraged, I believe this is what the Devs are trying to do with some map reworks. Holding W could get you in a dead zone on those maps, and that's why it's a liability. If it were like that on many maps, and pallets were not so dense on some maps, this playstyle would fall out of favor pretty fast.
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I also actually think Survivor is fun to play right now, but I think it's actually nothing to do with Killers being too strong and everything to do with SoloQ players being selfish as usual or just bad which is what ruins it. SWF is much much better. I don't appreciate the misinterpretation of my comment, either. My point was that Survivors should also be able to find fun in games they are losing the way Killers have to. Both sides need to chill out and find the fun in losing sometimes, this game should not be this competitive.
Still a both sides player BTW. No quotation marks needed. :)
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Which would be fine by me. I think survivor skill expression is in looping, mindgameing at tiles and perfect pathing. Leaving with iron will is low effort with big reward. Especially against killers with low mobility.
I know that this opion might be a hot take, but i play that game for chases mostly. Thats one of the reasons I main pig. I find the mindgame aspect of m1 killer gameplay the most enjoyable part of dbd. Therefore i despise pre dropping and shift w. Iron will sadly promotes shift w.
Now dont get me wrong. I dont say: "erase these playstyles!" They have their place in the game the same way that tunneling and camping do. Sadly. Doesnt change the fact though, that they are pretty boring and unfun to play against.
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I really enjoy your mindset. Agree!
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Yeah you only needed to do slow circles on the controller sticks with the old old wiggle system. Then there were some folks who though you had to smash the sticks left-right-left-right rapidly :D
One thing about the previous wiggle where you'd get a bit of a faster wiggle free with hitting greats is that it felt better to do it, even if pointless. Yellow bar = dopamine.
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How should survivors loop the tiles on Haddonfield? You know the ones near the hedges that don’t connect to anything at all. How about the tiles on Greenwich that are a pallet and a pole or a pallet and a rock? And what’s the skill expression for killers on these loops?
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It's the same type of people who call these pallets 50-50s when they're more like 80-20s in the killer's favor.
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Did we say that these loops where good?
I had this discussion before. Many survivors shift w regardless of the loop or the killer in play.
Edit: please read before you criticise: "They have their place in the game the same way that tunneling and camping do. Sadly." I know that certain tiles and killer powers leave no other option than to shift w.
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Nice. Great assumption.
Edit: whats a long tile on coldwind or mcmillan for an m1 killer? 50-50? More like 100-0 for the survivor.
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Being an M1 killer is definitely not a significant hindrance compared to past iterations of the game.
For every 'long loop' there's several bad loops, increasing more as maps get updated.
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Yeah, cowshed got updated. One / two short loops got added. Still jungle gym into 2 long tiles into shack. Very fair.
I agree, that m1 is more playable than it was a few years ago. I wish that tiles where 50/50 in general. The typical m1 killer should have a chance to get a hit at every single tile. Thats interactive gameplay. Mindgames in dbd are my favourite part. I think many people share this sentiment. Tiles like the long tiles on coldwind and mcmillan, every shack, withered isle jungle gyms, special tiles like the snow machine on ormond and almost every god pallet are as far away from that as the pallets that are guaranteed hits like the one in the foto-room in RPD.
Both are not fine and I think saying, that both sides having uninteractive tiles and leaving it at that is not the way to go.
Sadly, the imbalance in killer powers make this type of tile creation almost impossible.
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You said survivors leaving loops isn’t skill expression, so I asked what you believe survivors should do at those specific setups. There are of course dozens more but I just chose the most egregious examples to highlight how your perspective is flawed. I see your edit however and appreciate that you’ve corrected yourself.
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I didnt correct myself. I pointed out that you mis- or overread my statement.
If you had followed this thread, you would know, that we discussed the perk iron will. How is iron will commonly used in chase? To leave the loop asap because the killer does not get an audio clue that its happening. I dont find that skillful. I stand by that.
We are having two seperate discussions now.
- Leaving loop with iron will = or =/= skill
- Tile design not allowing looping.
Please chose one.
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Thx
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I didn’t misread your statement. I responded directly to what you produced. I haven’t mentioned IW at all.
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The only killers that would be hurt by bloodlust being removed are weak M1 killers that rely in bloodlust to even get a hit. It's a necessary bandaid for how powerful some maps/tiles are, and if a killer is bloodlusting you, you're already winning in chase. There's also lots of loops where you can outplay bloodlust if the killer chooses to not kick the pallet.
As for the wiggle change, it takes the same amount of time to wiggle of as before, and as far as I know the wiggle isn't any weaker than before.
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If you hadnt misread my statement then why did I have to copy paste it? I replied to a post, a post of OP, that was about the skill expression in using iron will while looping. Maybe read what im replying to before typing?
If your just following me around the forums to disagree with whatever I say, thats fine by me. Im here to discuss things. Disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing however is not what I would encourage you to do though.
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I think they mean beta skill check wiggle that would save 1 second if you hit all greats
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greenville also has tiles with 2 pallets…
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Filler tiles are 80-20 in the favor of a Killer who can't hit over or through them? Since when?
Every tile in the game is a filler? Since when?
Your ridiculous Survivor side bias really needs the reality check of playing Killer once in a while, all you seem to do is complain how hard the game is for Survivors without seeing how the game has also gotten less skill expressive for Killers.
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You don't loop those.
You loop stronger structures. Getting caught by the weak tiles is being caught out of position. Being caught out of position is a mistake. Making mistakes is punishable. Punishment comes in the form of being hit or being downed or hooked. If you're really desperate and stuck at those tiles, you simply greed the tile three times.
Weak map = planning your routes better, as either Killer or Survivor. No loop is so weak it's unusable, and no Killer is so map dependent they're unusable.
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By the rocks? It’s unsafe.
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That’s a good point; however, they aren’t decorative. They exist to be used.. if only to get a stun on them, although this factors into their weakness because you’re unlikely to make distance to anywhere better. Filler tiles are meant to provide something between stronger tiles. But filler tiles in isolation aren’t structures that provide much if any value. Part of skill expression is to avoid being zoned but when we take a map like, say, Haddonfield that has been thoroughly nerfed there really aren’t strong tiles connecting to much else (including fillers). A lot of a survivor’s evasion happens in negative space. That is a byproduct of map design, not skill expression.
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I am very in tune with reality. If you're going to scrutinize my post history make sure you do it right, I've never said the game is hard or unfun for survivors currently. But there are things I'd like to be better for the side I mainly play.
I do play killer regularly but at a rudimentary level, unlike the lot of you I don't claim to be an 'unbiased both sides' player because it's not true and I recognize any perspective I have on killer holds less weight than someone who mains the role at a high level because I don't play it seriously.
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"But at a rudimentary level".
So you admittedly don't have much experience as Killer and don't play it seriously, but do have it as Survivor and do play Survivor seriously. Friend, that is still bias. You're still biased. You cannot make solid claims about this game with that much bias. And you're trying to spin this as something positive because…?
If you did play Killer more seriously, especially before a lot of these Survivor nerfs, you would know there is an entire 6-7 year history only just now dying out of Survivor repeatedly being given more help than Killer, often to the point of making some Killers unplayable. You'd know most of the really unfun metas have been Survivor-sided metas, with the exception of the 3-gen Meta that was also obnoxious and needed to go. You'd know why certain perks were nerfed in endgame, some were weakened, and others were adjusted. You'd know why maps were made smaller and we can't have strong nice new perks anymore for either side - because they always get abused and become meta, and the Devs are trying to make other picks both sides have viable value for most casual players like you and I.
I am not a Killer main, either. I'm a hybrid Main, and I'm casual to boot. I am not out here trying to four man out or 4k every single game. My mains are Ghostface with Rancor and Nea with an altruistic-stealth support build. My secondaries all run little to no meta, I have never run 4 gen hold in my life nor do I even run strong perks like Lithe on Survivor except on like two characters, I'm an Alucard secondary and he's the largest Survivor in the game while also being a Pinhead secondary who runs ZERO stron genhold preferring hex builds. I run 9 Killers, and 8 Survivors, all with differing builds for differing reasons, none of which I'd consider overly sweaty at all.
MOST people play both sides with similar or close frequency and MOST players know exactly what is the issue on both sides of the game. You cannot discuss what is affecting Survivor without discussing what is affecting Killer too because it's intertwined. But I never see you talk about the issues Killer can and does face, or has faced in the past. Only ever Survivor. What am I left to assume when you only seem to moan about how bad it is on one side while never seeming to realize where the other got the help and needed it?3 -
You didn’t have to quote yourself, but I’d guess you did so because you wanted me to know the context of your statement that “holding W isn’t skill expression.” involves IW and not just at any loop.
To that I’d say… disagree. Losing track Of a survivor who holds W at a loop with Iron Will is a lack of skill expression. You have blood pools and scratch marks and their footsteps. If you lose track of them that is more of a skill issue than a survivor outsmarting you and leaving the loop.
And please remain civil. I’m not following you around to disagree with you (we actually agreed on another post you’d made recently but that’s beside the point). That’s insanely accusatory. If I see a bad take from anyone and I feel like it, I’ll respond. Just like you. This isn’t personal for me. Don’t personalize it for you.
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This will be my last post on the subject because I want to avoid thread closure.
I never denied being biased. I did the opposite. Claiming that you cannot argue points because of bias is ignorant at best.
Everyone has bias about topics they're familiar with.
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This is all true, except for one thing: Filler tiles very, very, very rarely happen in isolation, and Haddonfield was an exceptional case in that it was for the majority of its life continuously Survivor-sided until now. I agree Haddonfield should have actual tiles there, but I can't be crazy in saying the map DOES still have decent tiles in the form of the houses, right? Or that maybe you're intended to play different on this map from the typical design that rewards the same seven or so perks everyone runs?
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That's all very true. The problem is yours is substantial enough to be uninformed or very misinformed about the subjects you're making claims about. In such a case you really should not be making claims about what the game needs, because that's like saying "I'm an expert on infectious disease, I read a few books and articles on the internet one time and I don't think this whole Influenza thing was ever that deadly or big a deal because treatment exists for it."
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They knocked the walls out of the houses beside those tiles which severely weakened them. There is the basement in house of pain which is probably the best tile on the map. There’s a good one in the street (I think but many say it’s questionable) but it is kind of in the middle of nothing so when the killer breaks that pallet you’re zoned.
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Im supposed to keep it civil now. Ive read your earlier post. After what you wrote, i should reconsider responding to you at all, but Im here to discuss things. Would be a shame to change that now.
I agree. Losing a survivor with iron will as a killer is a skill issue. Never said otherwise. Leaving the loop with iron will as survivor however, is not something skillful if you ask me.
If I enter a discussion, I usually try to get some context about the discussion itself. Otherwise I could be severely missing the point.
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