Survivors are Conditioning Killers to Play in Certain Ways They Hate Going Against
Personal Experience
I'm someone who for the most part likes to use a variety of killers, perks, addons to try and be as unique, different and interesting as possible to play and go against but if there is one thing I am noticing it's that survivors I go against immediately assume I am a "baby killer" right off the bat trying gimmick "Tik Tok" stuff which does work against the less experienced players. For example I'll down someone and "Fake" picking them up with say Pig I'll crouch as If I am doing the pick up animation and what a surprise a survivor comes rushing in to flashlight save but because I haven't fell for it I get a hit off. But then for some reason they try to do it a 2nd time thus creates a start up slug through their own misplay. If a killer isn't falling for your strategy back off. I don't want to slug but you force it.
Where Does this Lead? DC
I can't tell you how common this is becoming, it's almost as if these people are trying to farm clips against really bad killers but then when it doesn't work against an experienced one they give up and go next. What does this then usually lead to? I stream DBD so usually these people will come into my stream and instead of them admitting they played badly they take it out on me and project harddd or they leave a salty comment on my steam profile making me out to be the bad person.
"Slugging, Tunneling at 4 gens boringgggg Killlerrrr"
The amount of gens shown doesn't tell us the whole picture, it could be 4 gens remain yet 3 of them are between 75-85% complete.
Next issue - Current Gen Speed:
As we know killer gen regression is becoming less and less to the point of where players are looking into the likes of Dying Light as their gen defense and gen regression kicks at base are laughable, 1/4th of a solo survivor regression. In my matches I'm seeing the likes of Brand New Part, Green Tool Boxes, Deva Vu, Prove Thyself, Resilence, Hyperfocus etc becoming insanely common. It's strange how BHVR are not keen on killers stacking their perks to combo yet for some reason survivor can just stack multiple gen perks?
What does this now create? Usually players who are really bad in chase yet can slam M1 on gens because their perks and addons allow it. This is potentially why a lot of peoples solo queue games are miserable I swear the skill level of survivor is just getting lower and lower because they don't need to try as much to get winning results.
I don't know about you but when I see gens fly stupid quick to the point of you genuinely think it's cheating I immediately feel I need to change up my playstyle to combat against them as I know full well If I switch my brain off and just do random chases I'll lose. Quick gens are forcing "Tunneling, Camping, Proxy Camping, Slugging" which I know full well the majority of the survivor playerbase despise going against. When gens are chill and more normal It allows me to go for more chases and make the gameplay loop more interesting, 4-5 min games do not.
Map Offerings:
I see Eyrie, disregard any intention I had on playing nice that match. In my experience people picking the likes of this map know It is strong and try to use it to their advantage. I am not saying they can't or shouldn't use it I'm just saying don't expect me to play nice against you after picking a map what heavily favours you. Any other scenario I will attempt to go for fun chases but again I am conditioned to change up my playstyle to have a chance at winning.
Forced MMR: Which We Can't Even See
This to me is boring, I'm not a fan at all with every match feeling like I am trying out for some Comp Team, sure I could just lose 50 matches in a row but the issue here is I am eventually going to end up back where I am now (wherever that is) because at the lower end the game is simply too easy and I wouldn't find it interesting straight up stomping new - mid players but at the same time I don't really want to go against potential Comp Teams every game. I have a feeling It's high because of the type of plays, strategies, cockiness I see, weak players wouldn't act this way and It is quite common player profiles I see has things like "Winner of X Tournament, 2nd in X Tournament" etc I am pretty sure these players wouldn't be on the lower end of MMR. I miss 2018 DBD where matchmaking had a bit more randomness to it.
So players, something to take from this. Not every killer you are against is out to get you on a personal level If they just happen to tunnel, camp, slug etc. Sure you are going to come across the 1/30 killer who is just determined to slug all 4 because "lolololol" but survivors has a lot of tools given to combat this, no killer should be able to slug you all without the survivors making multiple misplays. Read the match, think about why the killer had to play a certain way, are gens flying? Are they struggling in chase and barely get one person in less than a minute? Are your teammates bm'ing? Are your teammates trying blind plays and not backing off which leads to slugs? Are they wanting to win the match just as much as you do?
Comments
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We literally just had a BHVR employee state that internal data shows tunneling and camping has remained constant even when gen regression was strong.
Furthermore victim blaming the survivors as being at fault for how a killer plays is boring now, if all it takes for you to play to win is to start losing you were going to do it anyways.
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Notice how I said "In my Experience"
BHVR can show all the data they want, which we know they love to picky and selective with anyways so I usually take it with a grain of salt and disregard it, Nurse low kill/pick rate? We better buff her then because the data said so. We know Nurse is strong but the data says otherwise so where the buffs at?
It's also not victim blaming if once again they are causing certain playstyles through their own choices, again my experience. I'll always try to win every match I play but at the same time Im not the one running all the meta stuff to give myself an advantage before the match even begins.9 -
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Post edited by LadyOwO on11 -
Nurse argument is wholly irrelevant here because it's something else entirely.
Your OP states that 'tunneling and camping are becoming more common because gen regression is getting nerfed,' if tunneling and camping have retained a consistent usage rate irrespective of regression strength, that makes this claim entirely false. There's no way around it.
As for your second point, you state that you play to win every match but don't bring the best loadout, why should you be expected to win assuming the skill levels are even? What would be the point of even playing survivor if this was the case?
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Not surprising another player who brings up BHVR data but then disregards it when Nurse is brought up because Nurse alone proves BHVR's "Kill Rate Data" is bad and shouldn't be taken into account for Buffs/Nerfs, very picky choosy. A player should always have a chance to win no matter what build, character, addons they use. That stuff should play less of an impact than actual player skill. I could be way better than my opponent but i shouldnt just lose a match because I run the likes of Fire Up and 3 other random perks and they run Meta, Eyrie SwF's. Player skill should always trump extras.
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The claim that tunnelling and camping is directly related to the strength gen regression is wrong.
During the strongest gen regression meta ever (cob/overcharge/eruption) killers weren't actually camping and tunnelling less than before or after.
Killers have and always will tunnel as long as it remains both the easiest and best way to win. It has absolutely nothing to do with gen regression.
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Again, this is based on my experience. Back in the day long before MMR when the game was more interesting I very rarely if at all felt the need to "tunnel, slug, camp" but progressively through many many changes through my own experience as well as even content creators feeling the need to change their playstyle following these strategies is a lot more common. I know full well there are people like me who never really felt the need to do these playstyles but now are conditioned more to do so because of MMR.
Killers will do certain things no matter what I have already said this in the post but the more lame changes BHVR make it conditions more people to play in a way they may have never needed to beforehand. Data can be one thing and very selective as BHVR tend to be, but personal experience is showing me a bigger picture.2 -
Once you consider how MMR works you'll realize that it is you who is forcing yourself into slugging, tunnelling and camping. MMR doesn't care if you won by 12 hooks, by alternating hooks, by tunnelling or if you camped and tunnelled. It only cares about did you kill the Survivors.
As tunnelling and camping is a disproportionately effective strategy that has a low skill floor to implement and a high skill floor to counter as well as requiring a level of cohesion and coordination that is frankly unrealistic to expect solo queues (which form the majority of survivors) to have on a consistent basis using it gives you wins that you wouldn't have had if you hadn't camped or tunnelled.
Since it's a win MMR puts you against tougher opponents. In order to combat this the best option is just to not camp or tunnel and, if you lose a game, you lose. It's to be expected in a PvP game you'll lose at times and it's not a big deal.
Unfortunately, if you have been tunnelling and camping for awhile, the only way to get out of it is to reset your MMR by not tunnelling and camping and lose a lot until your MMR places you at a point where you can win by spreading hooks. That's a miserable position to be in but it's not survivors that got you there; it was tunnelling and camping. That doesn't change how painful it is to break out of that cycle though which is unfortunate but the only way to get you back to an MMR that overall will probably prove more enjoyable.
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This has to be the biggest lie I've ever heard OP. If you're going to make such a bold faced lie at least provide some type of data to prove your claim instead of pulling things from thin air.
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I remember tunneling and camping when the gen kick meta was a thing. And when pop and pain res were at their strongest
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"biggest lie"
Well look at certain content creators who just refuse to play killer entirely now because of how stressful it can be to the point of they only just play survivor now or they don't play DBD in general now and moved on to other games, I'd name names but this is against forums rules but if you follow any of the DBD content creator scene some names may spring to mind.
More evidence would be that I am basing all this on my own personal experience, I also stream this game as I mentioned in the initial post and A LOT of the time I get people come in the chat to straight up complain about how I played and them refusing to admit their misplays.
Again in my experience while yes I like to go for wins (as a lot of people do) this can lead to if my opponents are running 2nd chances galore, bringing strong maps, running sabo squads, SwF's etc I adapt to their level of play with what I have which again can bring us back to paragraph 2 in this response. If im lying despite thousands of stream hours and match uploads backing up what I'm saying then there is no convincing you.3 -
The problem you have, OP, is that you phrased your title as a factual statement, when it really is a personal opinion. You're kinda setting yourself up for being challenged based on facts and your anecdotal evidence (personal experience) being rejected.
Anyone can have any opinion they want, even an entirely baseless one or one solely based on anecdotal evidence. But you can't base something you want accepted as a factual statement on an opinion. Or say that what you experience and think is experienced and thought by others - which you don't do explicitly but indirectly by following your personal experience up with generalised statements about "killers", "survivors", "we" etc.
On the actual topic: If someone was to accept the claim that survivors "condition" killers to camp and tunnel - then that someone would also have to accept the claims that killers condition survivors to DC, 4%, bring BNP and stack perks. That's how adapting to a situation works; someone experiences something and wonders how they can be better prepared if this something happens again and then they might decide to do that the next time around. But leaving it at that also leads nowhere since it's the chicken and egg kinda thing; do you find killers tunnel, camp, slug because they have adapted to what survs bring/do — or do you find survs bring the stuff they bring and do what they do because they have adapted to what killers bring/do? As others have mentioned; since actual data suggests the prevalence of tunneling and camping has remained pretty unaffected by changes like regression it would follow that survs have adapted to what killers do.
But since we're in the area of anecdotal evidence, let me contrast your experience with my experience:I don't see BNP everywhere, the people I see DC don't DC because of a failed FL or pallet-save (they usually DC when it's clear a match is lost a minute into said match, when the killer seems to make it a point to make survs miserable, there is a busted/scummy build/playstyle in play or they, for one reason or the other, refuse to play a match with a certain killer), I don't see gens fly super quick - except if a killer is absolutely overcommitting a surv and spends 2 min+ chasing them and I also see more killers bringing map offerings than survs.
As a surv I don't want to go against a potential sweaty and/or scummy killer - but that's what I have come to expect as it happens in what feels like 9/10 matches. Vice versa I've found that on killer it's a very black and white kinda thing (though I only play Nemo with a nor particularly strong build); stomp or be stomped, neither of which is particularly fun either.13 -
Guess these killers were "forced" to be absolute dicks huh?
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and what exact "data" proved that tunneling and camping is still high during peak meta? do you have any proof of that or are you just trying to gaslight more
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Killers play toxic because survivors are toxic.
Survivors play toxic because killers are toxic.
What came first the chicken or the egg?
All I know is it's an endless loop that will continue indefinitely whilst DBD is alive. You either ignore it and take the abuse on the chin or you join the rest of the toxic crew and see the game for what it really is.
Theres only one way to not receive abuse in the end game chat as killer and you need to tick many boxes. Not sign of tunneling, camping or slugging. Don't use meta perks or killers. Outplay every survivor at every loop. End the game on a 4k.
Do all of this and you still aren't guaranteed to not get abused in some way. Most of the time you get no response at all, which is better than getting trolled by some salty losers. If you fail at any of these objectives prepare to get tbagged, clicked & told how bad you're in end game chat.
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A BHVR dev stated so
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I do think it's very funny when survivors complain about me tunneling when I want to go for the unhooker but the recently unhooked person insists on body blocking me because they just have to get use out of basekit BT or DS. At that point of course I'm going to tunnel because the injured person is now more vulnerable but according to survivors no clearly I'm only doing that to be mean lmao.
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It's referring to this post by Mandy and is probably as exact as we gonna get:
"it" being tunneling and camping.
I don't know if you were around during that time Eruption blocked a gen for a good while every time it procd (and iirc there wasn't even a cooldown) and some other regression perks were pretty busted as well if used together (and they were pretty much always used together). In my memory it was the time where gen regression was the absolute strongest and the regression during the 2v8 event seemed tame by comparison. And both I and the people i played with kept wonder: Why for all that's holy do so so many people still feel the need to hold their three gen while focusing on tunneling someone out? Because the thing with gen regression being strong is that it makes tunneling even stronger. The carrot approach has evidently not worked; so the buff to regression got removed and they now take a different approach.
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The only reason camping, tunneling, and slugging are done is because the crap players who use such tactics aren't punished for it. That's it. BHVR endorses these strategies, and doesn't give two craps about the survivor experience. They make more money off of killers, so they only care about whether the killers are having fun, rather than the game being fun for everyone.
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It's likely tunnelling is connected to something else. Not "how easy" it is to do, but I think due to the "you must win at all costs all the time or you suck" nature the game poses.
Basically Killers do this because they want to win. They do it because it is a way to secure kills. They do this because the game ONLY cares about getting kills, particularly a 3-4k.
That's a game issue. Not a skill issue. And it can only be addressed by fixing the game.
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Personally I have found that the tactics I use as killer started off as a direct result of survivor tactics/behaviour.
Constant gen rushing pretty much taught me to tunnel 1 out asap.
Constant flashlight and pallet saves taught me to slug
The amount of survivors that hover near a hooked survivor taught me to proxi camp.
Obviously there's more to it than that but in short, I wouldn't do these tactics if they didn't counter survivor tactics.
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How can you be this oblivious to what is actually happening in the game. Like it's actually mind blowing how soo many people have their heads in the sand. That is an insane statement and clearly shows that the devs are listening to the wrong voice.
SMH
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they aren't picky they've said that tunneling from back then to right now has always ben the same lmfao ppl tunnel and slug regardless of perk strength and metas it's just the easy way out
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BHVR can show all the data they want, which we know they love to picky and selective with anyways so I usually take it with a grain of salt and disregard it, Nurse low kill/pick rate? We better buff her then because the data said so. We know Nurse is strong but the data says otherwise so where the buffs at?When has BHVR ever actually said anything like this? Every time I've ever seen a post from one of the devs its been very clear and reasonable, data is useful, but its not the end of the story. They seem to understand that Nurse is strong, but difficult to play, so her numbers make sense.
There's a giant amount of space between 'mindlessly follow the first numbers you get' and 'throw out all data'.
I immediately feel I need to change up my playstyle to combat against them as I know full well If I switch my brain off and just do random chases I'll lose.I should hope that if a player switches their brain off they lose.
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Chem trap and throw pebble making people play a certain way thats for sure.
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How are you this ignorant of how the game plays for killers and how its designed that you feel the need to blame players? There's little to no benefit to spreading hooks, it is a net detriment to a killers gameplay most of the time, now more than ever with constant nerfs to regression games are too fast with too many chase extenders to waste time purposefully spreading hooks. Removing survivors from the game is both your objective and the best pressure you can apply as a killer.
Just because you aren't having fun doesnt mean the many arent.
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I think both sides feed off of each other and push themselves into playing in a way that the other hates.
If you play against a tunneling/camping/proxy camping killer, survivors will adapt and push gens.
If you struggle as killer, people will rush gens.
We're at this point in the game where people try to play as optimally as possible because you never know when a game turns around for the other side because a killer decided to tunnel or survivors "gen rush" their objectives.
So, you have both parties playing in a competitive level. As Firellius stated, tunneling and camping has always been a prevalent strategy that killers employ, so survivors have adapted to stay on generators to ease the pressure the killer is doing -- it's nothing new.
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To OP's point about survivors needing less skill now. I would heavily disagree with that assertion. If anything, it's the opposite. You have no room for error now. The maps are the size of a studio apartment AND often completely dead (see below)
There's a jungle gym without a pallet and a harvester. Aaaaand that's about it for half the map. Yes, you could have told me in 2019 with Mettle of Man, actual insta-heals, pre-nerf BNPs, and maps filled with safe tiles that the bar was low for survivor skill. That's not the case anymore. Survivors are objectively working with less now and having to make due. The discourse is usually framed around a perfect survivor and a powerless M1 killer. Let's assume the killer player is decent and has a power.
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From my personal experience and collection I would assume that 99% of the DBD economy is running on feng and sable skins.
Also most packs consist of a killer AND a survivor and I would also assume that a lot of people just buy the whole chapter and dont go out of their way to only buy one side. So I don't know where exactly you got that Information from that killers spent way more money than survivors on this game.
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Mikaela and Sable have gotten 8 skins this year and Huntress has gotten 2 even though she is the most popular killer. So you're spot on they definitely make more money from survivors.
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I understand what you are trying here.
But, do not bother.
You will not get the discourse here you are looking for.
If you have any grievances as a killer main, it does not matter what it is, you will not get any "valuable" feedback.
At least not on this site. Survivor mains will say anything to make you look like the bad person.
Many are masters of mental gymnastics and will use any excuse they can find, twist your words, invent stuff, distort facts, just to be "right".
It is more productive to try to talk to a wall or a fish in a tank.
My best advice to you is either take a break from the game, main another game and only play DBD when you feel like it, or abandon the game completely.
Anyway, i am not trying to discourage you. I am just being realistic.
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BHVR dev stated so doesn't prove anything where is the PROOF
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well thats her personal opinion and "i dont think its connected" doesnt exactly prove anything no offense thats one devs opinion
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I guess the big question is, why do Killers still feel the need to do these things?
The answer? Because the game and the community tells them they are trash if they don't win 100% of the time and play flawlessly, so they always feel they have to sweat this hard and use these tactics to win. That's just how the game and community are.
The fix? We start rewarding hooks over Kills, and start rewarding Killers for playing fair while also punishing extreme tunnelling, camping, and slugging so we can see which aspects of it are for tactics and which are just done to sweat out wins.
Lowkey normalizing BP gain so Killers like say… Ghostface or Sadako, for example, do not lose points in Chaser for attacking from ambush, would help. If people see the pip, they feel they made progress, they feel their time was worth it. At least, that works for me as Survivor, it should work as Killer, too that you can lose the round but still get something like a pip from it to feel like you made progress.
Basically, the sting of loss needs to be entirely defanged and the point of the game needs to be made not about winning, but having fun even if you lose. But Killers are not rewarded for that, only for winning. Hence…
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This whole discussion is personal opinion that doesn't exactly prove anything.
Mandy does have access to aggregated data - but she doesn't perform a statistical analysis to get the p values and whatnot to prove correlation or causation. But what she got is still a little better, in my opinion, than the individual observation(s) of a single person. At the very least complaints remaining at a steady level means there hasn't been something that had a massive impact. - An example where I fully expect the number of complaints showing the impact a change had is medkits/surv self-healing. Prior to the medkit nerf there was a thread complaining about medkits/survivor self-healing every other day and discussions got pretty heated. Ever since the nerf I see maybe the odd healing-is-still-too-strong-thread once every other month or so.
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