(Controversial opinion) nerfing gen regression into the ground caused tunneling and camping to up

So not long ago when gen regression meta got nerfed i said *if you nerf gen regression perks into the ground its just gonna promote tunneling* and now here we are killers are gonna tunnel cause now first 30 seconds of the game if you dont down someone you are gonna be behind. Pain resonance still a good perk same with pop but some other perks are bad or freddy bad.

I will ask you, have you ever seen call of brine, undone, dragons grip, or some Mediocre perk that requires something to get something? You prob did but you prob seen it once every blue moon. Hell even hex ruin is pretty bad spot right now.

Now im gonna ask about survivor perks, you see pain resonance and pop both perks requires you to hook survivors. But, what about survivor perks? What do they gotta do to activate their perks? Well just be in a match, alot of survivor perks just requires you to be there. Im talking from dwight all the way to felix. All perks (felix is the last one to do it) that requires you to be in a match to get benefits. Theres no way killer can stop the perk from activated (felix perk requires you the killer to let them heal to counter the perk). Theres also no way the killer can know this perk activates and im not even talking about gen progression perks im talking about all perks that activate by being in a match. Just imagine if a killer has a perk that said all gens regress for no reason im pretty sure everyone would be mad.

Now bhvr is introducing bnp perks (which are weak but introducing a scary concept perks) and we have bnps that is still strong. Toolboxes got an unnecessary buffs to sabo so if you finally got that deserved down to get more pressure you can lose it in a second cause survivors can sabo hooks at speed of light. And, flashbang can put a killer in a lose lose situation and theres nothing they can do which only way to counter this is to slug or just wait for them to stop doing no skill flashbang save. Toolboxes are still strong and can stack with gen progression perks to make gens fly. I was on a gen with anniversary toolbox with deja vu and the gen flew so fast.

Then i made post saying bhvr buffed alot of survivor perks but no killer perks was just a bad idea (alot of people say im a killer main but i play both and i will say this patch was survivor sided hands down).

Then theres the maps, the maps are just bad. Realm offerings need removed cause i got sent to dead dawg saloon soooo many times for survivors use perks that either have no counter to bully me or they just locker save me. And, theres so many maps that are survivor sided that arent fun (looking at badham) and im starting to bring lightborn and realm decline offering or dc in the menu.

Killers have to tunnel cause kicking gens dont help anymore cause once they help they get nerfed. More nerfs to something that helps killer bring pressure means killers will tunnel more to bring more pressure.

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Comments

  • legiondoctor
    legiondoctor Member Posts: 223

    Same Before gen regression nerfs i barely see a tunneling killer

    After nerfs i see it alot and i get it cause i see gens flying what can the killer do?

  • Toystory3Monkey
    Toystory3Monkey Member Posts: 722

    Player issue is lacking basic empathy and understanding the opponent wants to win and will do everything they can within reasonable effort for them to win.

    As for game/perk issue, the more devs nerf slowdown options that allow killers to comfortably play without resorting to these strategies for longer, the more often and earlier killers will start apply the main strategies to apply pressure. Pretty simple thing.

    If killers dont feel like they can spread hooks with nerfed slowdown anymore, they'll start using other means of pressure.

    On contrary, killers won't be allowed to just have powerful regression that allows to throw game sense out of the window and play the game like pure 1v1 because when that's possible, survivors have to both get rolled in every chase until it doesnt matter if they last for a while and be unable to keep up. Doesn't sound like fun either.

    "Unsavoury" strategies are the necessary evil here. The only part about them that needs to be regulated is getting rid of the ability to mindlessly apply them in every possible situation which devs have been doing successfully so far.

  • RpTheHotrod
    RpTheHotrod Member Posts: 1,894

    It doesn't CAUSE tunneling and camping, but it does certainly increase the amount of it. There was always tunneling and camping.

  • Toystory3Monkey
    Toystory3Monkey Member Posts: 722

    and im bored of people saying killers should win with fairplay in a game not balanced around that. or asking the game to be lobotomized whatsoever just so they get even more artificially equal games.

    also, saying killers "always camped, tunnelled, yadayada" is such a black and white take. it's a fact that the stronger slowdown options were, the less likely killers were to resort to these strategies because they could win without them.

    multiple people spelled it out for you: quantity of "unsavoury strategies" reduces proportionally to the quality of slowdown options available, especially the ones that encourage "savoury strategies". If you want to focus on people still feeling the need to play like that, then you miss the entire point.

    People will always camp, tunnel, slug and protect gens for as long as the game is designed around downing people, stopping to pick them up, put on a hook up to 3 times to kill them, while not letting survivors complete an exponentially growing difficulty objective.

    You won't force all people to play fair unless you fundamentally change the core design premise of this game and make it so the optimal play is playing fair. But I assure you, if that happens, you'll come to sorely regret that, because you'll get rid of the optional skill expression killers can apply when survivors they finally got arent playing like concussed seals.

  • Yippiekiyah
    Yippiekiyah Member Posts: 487

    Bad maps are causing tunneling and camping

  • Seraphor
    Seraphor Member Posts: 9,372
    edited September 6

    In some sense I can agree. Slowing the game down (regression) is better than taking shortcuts (tunneling/camping). But 4 regression perks aren't necessary. And in most cases even 1 isn't necessary.

    It can vary by killer (there are exceptions) but slowdown is ultimately a crutch that skews the game in the killers favour, patching up the holes in your skill and macro game sense. There's a point where it becomes excessive, and that's why the nerfs, killers were relying on regression far too much, and still do.

    If you can't win without more than 1 regression perk, your MMR is likely too high. That is to say if you can't win at least 60% of the time without regression, your MMR is too high.

    But then there's an issue of confirmation bias too. You could be winning plenty, but a 60% win rate doesn't 'feel' good because the 40% losses are more impactful and tilting, so you still keep sweating because you need to win 'every' game, not just 60%.

    So it's not really a case of 'nerfing regression cause tunneling'. It's 'killers being desperate to win 100% of the time causes tunneling'.

  • Ginnypig
    Ginnypig Member Posts: 159

    even with tunneling, if you face a swf, which is 9 out of 10 games, you can call yourself lucky with 2 k

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 9,332

    It most certainly is controversial. The reason gen defence got nerfed is because people claimed it made tunneling stronger, even though that's an oxymoron. How can you spend the whole game going for 1 person at a time, but also completely control all the gens? You can't, except against bad players. But they have the biggest piece of the pie so they got what they wanted. Nerfing gen defence absolutely made tunneling and camping more appealing. A killer's not gonna just settle for less time. If they're gonna lose by default because they no longer have time to do their objective, they're gonna start taking shortcuts. I used to never tunnel, and now I almost always have to. What's the average result? Probably a draw still. They've made it to where as long as survivors know to do generators, it doesn't matter how bad they are, because they'll still just win. You used to be able to punish bad chasers by getting Pop and Pain Res off them, but now those don't even regress close to 1 piston's worth. This is in a game where you could regress 2 full gens worth of progress, and they'd still beat you. So guess how much worse it is now.

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 9,332

    So as an alternative, because tunneling is such a bad thing, they've just decided to not let killers have anything. They took 1 side's scenario where they "couldn't do anything" and shifted it onto the other.

  • For_The_People
    For_The_People Member Posts: 562

    I am probably at a lower scale of ability so my own experience is usually where I and many I play with struggle against overt and incessant camping and tunnelling.

    However, I will have to take the consideration of many killers who say it is a ‘needs must’ thing for them against higher ability players.

    The obvious thing then is to really focus on matchmaking as it is the same tools but people who know how to use them better.

    ideally it would be for those who must use strategies such as tunnel and camp to do so against those who genuinely play so efficiently and well to the point that these strategies are needed. Seems a bit pointless using them against the kind of players that hasn’t driven the use of such.

    Of course the big issue is that matchmaking and MMR is nit going to be easy to manage and implement but hopefully we’ll make progress there soon.

  • dwight444
    dwight444 Member Posts: 428

    you don't spend the whole game going after one person, tunneling is not that hard against an ill-equipped random group of players which is your average match. You can accomplish this within 2 or 3 gens. Unless of course per typical dbd forum logic, you're playing swf match after match, 4 DH, 4 DS, 4 medkits, 4 lithes and that's the only perspective you can view the game through

    will never understand anyone who is against the gen kick limit, basekit bt, face camp, etc. They were healthy changes, no one should secure a kill by standing in front of you or just hitting you immediately off hook when you're in no position to do anything about it (glad I joined dbd right after basekit bt). You don't see the gen kick limit much in games because the mechanic is doing its job of deterring that play style, not because it was never an issue.

    2 people do a gen in 54 seconds uninterrupted, 2 people on a single gen is already bad . You should be able to secure a pain res, pop, etc within the time it takes to double a gen or at least regress 1 if they're splitting gens.

    tunneling will always be the path of least resistance and people will say it's a necessary evil no matter the state of the game because it's the simplest way to reach the end of the match and have a feeling of satisfaction that you 'won'.

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 9,332

    Yeah, they call themselves that, but there's nothing stopping these "chill" teams from doing gens fast, body blocking so the killer can't get downs, and still walking out the gates without a care in the world, meanwhile the killer was sweating. I've gotten plenty of 2ks as killer as of late, and it wasn't for lack of trying. This is the hardest killers have had to play, to get worse results, I've ever seen in the game's history.

    I've heard people experimenting with Dracula's wolf hug tech. I have no interest in pursuing it, but those players are gonna need it. In Dracula's base form, he straight-up can't get people at certain tiles, the same as any M1. Those killers can't do anything against survivors who know what they're doing. And killers who are basically M1 with a kind of twist, like Nemesis or Singularity, have similar results. SWF doesn't have to sweat against them to beat them. They just do gens, loop decent, no real game winning plays, and get 3-4 out. 4 out every time if the killer isn't tunneling, because the game will be over on his 4th or 5th hook. 2ks are no longer a thing to scoff at; it's what the devs want your result to be every time.

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 9,332

    Yeah, they call themselves that, but there's nothing stopping these "chill" teams from doing gens fast, body blocking so the killer can't get downs, and still walking out the gates without a care in the world, meanwhile the killer was sweating. I've gotten plenty of 2ks as killer as of late, and it wasn't for lack of trying. This is the hardest killers have had to play, to get worse results, I've ever seen in the game's history.

    I've heard people experimenting with Dracula's wolf hug tech. I have no interest in pursuing it, but those players are gonna need it. In Dracula's base form, he straight-up can't get people at certain tiles, the same as any M1. Those killers can't do anything against survivors who know what they're doing. And killers who are basically M1 with a kind of twist, like Nemesis or Singularity, have similar results. SWF doesn't have to sweat against them to beat them. They just do gens, loop decent, no real game winning plays, and get 3-4 out. 4 out every time if the killer isn't tunneling, because the game will be over on his 4th or 5th hook. 2ks are no longer a thing to scoff at; it's what the devs want your result to be every time.

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 9,332

    Whatever. You're downplaying how difficult the average killer match is. They don't need 4 DS/DH, just 1 will do. And you're turning the killer winning into a point of shame like, "Yeah, he won, but that's not good."

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 5,435

    Before, Killers could win by not tunneling, so some did, some didn't. Those survivors who did some real research into the matter mostly reported something like a 1:10 ratio, ie one hardcore tunneling killer per 10 games. Sometimes a killer would start tunneling strategically at 1 gen remaining, but thats not what we are talking about here.

    And nowadays things seem to have shifted rather dramatically. A much higher percentage of killers now feels the need to tunnel, in order to create the foothold they need for the game to not spiral out of their control. These days gen repair speeds are just out of control and very often the game is decided in the first 30s: did the killer by chance chose the god looper and don't realise immediately? Lose. Did the killer by chance chose the weak link and downed them in a timely fashion? Now the ball is still in the field, only 2-3 gens lost, but they couldn't have started 4 and 5…

    The killer can't possibly be going after 3 different survivors and hook them as the chips fall, they must chose 2 and stick to them, or more often then not, keep an eye on the rescue of that one hooked survivor, stying close, but not too far that they can't patrol gens, because the 70s hook timer gives the other survivors all the time in the fog they need to finsih their gens and still come to the rescue of their mate.

    The killer is quite literally stuck between a rock and a hard place from second one of the match. The only option to getting a breather is to kill one survivor asap and turn in 3 v 1, everything else is a fools errant.

  • Paternalpark
    Paternalpark Member Posts: 663

    If you don't run gen regression, you can play as scummy as you like.

    Going thru the motions of hooking everyone needs some form of gen regression but a snowball killer with gen regression is brutal once they have their teeth in.

  • TheSubstitute
    TheSubstitute Member Posts: 2,492
    edited September 6

    That's been my experience as well. I started in 2021 (so three years now) and followed the advice given to me to let my skills grow organically. As such, I never used that much gen regression instead keeping it limited to one gen regression perk, no tunneling and no camping (Trapper is the only exception with both Corrupt and Deadlock to keep all my gens from blowing while I gather and set traps). My win rate on every Killer is over 60% without camping, tunnelling and minimal gen regression. Quite often I have no gen regression as it's just public matches and I find games more entertaining with chase and info perks.

    So, when I hear people say about how tunnelling is necessary, etc I don't see it. I win the majority of all my games without any of those tactics. So, if tunnelling is so necessary then how come people are winning the majority of their matches without any of those tactics? It could be exactly what you said in the last sentence and, that by doing so, their MMR has been artificially inflated to the point where your chasing, information and macro skills, etc are underdeveloped for the bracket they are in and that's why it feels that way.

    The only other exception I see is people that are at the soft cap because if you place a 1900 MMR person against a 1600 MMR person that person has almost no chance whatsoever. That can create the impression but that's more a flaw with having a soft cap then any need to do anything.

    Post edited by TheSubstitute on
  • GonnaBlameTheMovies
    GonnaBlameTheMovies Member Posts: 682
    edited September 6

    Not controversial, is true, look how much tunnelling has increased since these perks were nerfed.

    But I think the real issue is, early game is just SO weak for Killer. So so weak. If we fix Killer early game, we fix lots of need for tunnelling too. Tunnelling is almost always a desperation move.

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 5,435

    This is so true! I just had the most fun game in ages today. It was in Dead Dog Saloon and I don't know what happened, but the survivors weren't extremely efficient and it felt like a game from three years ago. I found a survivor immediately, but the chase was quite intense, with two or three pallets just a couple of frames too early to get the down. But when I hooked that first survivor, only one gen popped.

    I then got into a coupld more chases, hooked basically every survivor, and the gens were just poppeng here and there. In the end I killed off one survivor at when the last gen popped, one escaped immediately and from the last two I managed to down one while I chased the last one off. It was a draw by all accounts, but it felt like so much win.

    Usually I shift gears when 3 gens are done, or 2 gens and one gen I pass by is already progressed so far that I can't feasably hold it. But this game today, that felt like something from 2021, when I started.

  • Akumakaji
    Akumakaji Member Posts: 5,435

    For those interested, today I streamed after a long hiatus (though without me talking … I talked the entire time, but I wasn't recording, obviously … I need to figur that out till next time :P).

    I was playing a lot of Legion, because the current tome page got this "Irridescend Chaser emblem" challenge, and I figured that Legion would be good at this, but ugh, they are so weak against decent survivors. Grandted, I haven't played Legion in quite a while, but it was not pretty.

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2244093727

    The first match I actually didn't do too many things wrong, but boy oh boy had this main building some nutty RNG! Never seen anything like it, so I got royaly confused. If that Belmond hadn't given up, I would have been laughed out of the match, and even so the survivor at the end wasted as much as my time as possible by crawling into their precious comp corner. I ate a lot of pallets this match, but really, with Legion I don't know what I could have done better. It didn't help that the Claudette outplayed me two times and the main buildings layout just confused me time and time again.

    Match two was in RPD and think I did really well. I tried to go for opportunities, broke chases immediately when I could see that they lead nowhere and got this massive outplay in the middle. And STILL the survivors got a massive win in this one. At the end I fumbled a bit, because I thought that the exit gates were already open. I think that if I had shot down that Mikaela I might have turned things around, but alas, it is what it is. The smack talk afterwards was quite interesting, though, because I played Legion and Weave Attunement, I didn't deserve a single ounce of empathy and was a Weave Rat. That was a new one :D

    Match three I hard tunneled one survivor out at 5 gens, and still couldn't get a 4K. I slugged one survivor for one round on the gens, but then eventually hooked them when they were picked up and I couldn't find their compagnion.

    After that it was payback time and I switched over to my main Pyramid Head and went to town. "Overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer" and I was indeed a bit overconfident at my down at 58min, and haha, that flashlight save at 58:22 was NUTS, but well deserved, especially since I left myself so open. But I never expected any foul play in that tunnel. In the same vein the teleporter right on front of my at 59:16 was pure comedy.

    At match 5 on Ormond I had the challenge to kill my Obsession and Dwight was quite salty about getting killed at 0 gens remaining, oh well. But it was a mostly enjoyable match, even though it ended with a draw.

    Match 6 got me my second Obsession kill (with another rage DC) and the twitcher I was against wasn't half bad, and even though I was a bit angry at her Ada friend for all her sneaky tactics, they weren't actually be doing anything bad. I showed mercy to the Alucard player who seemed rather new, at one point I nearly tunneled him out, but luckily he got away <3

    Match 7 was me trying the Trickster master challenge, and boy am I bad with Trickster. But really, after his PTB he really isn't a lot of fun to play. This match was just one plate of dirt after the next for me, mostly because I was trying to power up my Main Event and get downs with it. And somehow I barely made it! But it definitely wasn't earned. Oh well … I will never play Trickster again in the foreseeable future.

    Match 8 was then Dracula, because I managed to P6 him and I wanted to see his full bloody outfit. That was a surprisingly fun game, the best I had in a long time, actually, because it felt like 2021 again, the one I mentioned in the post above, with gens popping one after another with a chase of delay between them, instead of just popping after the first chase. But dang, Hellfire is useless on most loops, and the Wolf feels as much a detriment to Dracula then to the survivors. Ugh, he is so unwieldy. I really love Draculas design and chase music, but I guess he is just too clunky and will disappear from the publics eye soon.