Dracula Shapeshift Cooldown Buff was Overkill - Bat is Too Strong
After a few days of playing with and against the buffed Shapeshift cooldown, I think I can safely say that I feel Bat is waaaaaaay overtuned now. The cooldown was honestly pretty fine and balanced before the buff.
Shapeshift NEEDS a cooldown, thanks to Bat's speed and ability to completely ignore vaults and pallets. With the new buffs, Dracula can shapeshift, hop over a pallet or window, and turn back before Survivors get a chance to run anywhere.
It's as if Spirit's cooldown was completely removed AND she could walk through vault points - there's just nothing Survivors can do to get between loops, he is instantly on top of Survivors in seconds.
I think either Shapeshift needs its original cooldown back, or leaving Bat form needs a bigger slowdown to allow for more counterplay.
Comments
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I would agree with this if all of his forms were equally usefull, now that the wolf lost his hug tech, I don’t even try to use the wolf form, it is so satisfying switching bat form and vampire form very quickly tho.
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Exiting Bat form having a greater slowdown/"landing" would probably be the best choice (also perhaps suppression of basic attacks immediately out of it for half a second or two with accompanying animation visuals indicating that a basic attack isn't ready (perhaps with the hand lowered out of sight then raised when ready).
The smoothness of switching between forms right now on demand is really buttery and I like it.
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please no. the m/s reduce already feels clunky. bat is a good spot. i was playing dracula like this with bat form mostly. previous version was really hard to use effectively with the cooldown. now he has really good transform game-flow between bat form and vampire form. only his wolf form could be a little better.
Spirit with 2 cooldown add-on is around 10 second cooldown. I believe she is little bit faster than him and has a bit more information on survivor's positions. Bat-form at loops is at best 50/50 mindgame but a lot of survivors like… won't drop the pallet till you exit form and can stand in positions where they're next to a vault while also being tricky to track. there is counter-play.
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ideally, it would good tracking form when you hook someone and don't know where people are but when i transform into wolf, i get like no tracking information and pounces should be good on loops where hellfire cannot fire over but it is not good at that either so yeah. wolf needs some upgrades to be useful. the other forms vampire and bat are solid now after their changes from ptb & live.
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If Dracula transforms again into Vampire (from bat) from a side of a pallet/window where the survivor is, the survivor has enough time to vault it again while dracula is transforming + the delay where he cannot attack after transforming. The shorter cooldown didnt change a thing about it.
If i am not mistaken, to have enough time to attack the survivor, you must bait the survivor to vault into your side while you start transforming, then the survivor must finish the vault and start vaulting again into the other side, and thats when you can hit it. Otherwise it will not work.
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"Dracula can shapeshift, hop over a pallet or window, and turn back before Survivors get a chance to run anywhere"
No, he can't. It takes Dracula two seconds before he can do anything. The survivor can just vault the pallet/window again.
It's as if Spirit could walk through windows and pallets in exchange for way less lethality.
Dracula's cooldown is fine and bat form definitely doesn't need a nerf.
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We'll have to see how he performs in comp, but I'm a bit concerned at how oppressive bat form can be to mitigate tools the survivors use to gain distance in chase.
While it's not like you can swap in and out of bat form for easy hits at loops, it's great at making up the distance a survivor gains if you choose to break a pallet/they use a haste-based perk even in a successful manner and you end up quickly back on them again like nothing happened just following their scratch marks they left behind.
If we're talking about information, at lower levels, Survivors might not think to go slow and steady if bat form is approaching, and those scratch marks are as plain as day, informing you that a Survivor is nearby even without listening to their footsteaps. And that increased mobility can allow Bat form to gain information at an increased pace about leftover scratchmarks that unaware Survivors leave behind while they run under the assumption that Killer was farther away. As the increased speed from bat form increases the rate that you're able to parse more environmental information simply by moving through the environment faster.
Maybe if bat form didn't see scratch marks, but triggered Killer instinct within a small radius. It would be better suited as a mobility tool, and being more jukeable if used in chases. (And also overcoming the hardware gap a player might experience if they're not using a great headset/have hearing issues).1 -
If we're talking about information, at lower levels, Survivors might not think to go slow and steady if bat form is approaching, and those scratch marks are as plain as day, informing you that a Survivor is nearby even without listening to their footsteaps.
the information for bat form is pretty hard to track. bat form works a lot like spirit where you can run as survivor, show scratch marks then turn a corner, then start walking. If the killer is not in direct line of sight when he transforms or has to navigate non-liner/open areas it is not out of the question to juke the bat.
Maybe if bat form didn't see scratch marks, but triggered Killer instinct within a small radius. It would be better suited as a mobility tool, and being more jukeable if used in chases.
I don't want to get into this argument where spirit and bat form is uncounterable. the bat is possible to juke without any changes.
the thing about the bat is that the killer can be wrong on survivor location but survivor doesn't get as much distance because prior to said change, if a killer was wrong, they'd have to be stuck in bat form for at least 5 seconds which is 20 meter of distance. Now the bat is only 2.5 seconds so the survivor gets like 8-9 meters of distance for juking the bat. A lot of killer player often did not use bat because risk vs reward of losing distance was too high. i used it but it was extremely punishing. a lot of my games, i would make a mistake, get super punished and get 2k at most, even few losses. Now it is a lot less punishing if your wrong.
it's not like you can swap in and out of bat form for easy hits at loops, it's great at making up the distance a survivor gains if you choose to break a pallet/they use a haste-based perk even in a successful manner and you end up quickly back on them again like nothing happened
Being able to counter shift-w is one of most important killer assets for a killer. it is almost universally what defines bottom tier killers vs top-tier killers. if your really good at using bat form, dracula can be consider very high-tier killer but i think average killer player that plays dracula will not min-max his kit. at least that is my impression from playing vs him as survivor.
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Scratch marks not being generated is the only time in which you're able to juke bat, yeah. But you make much less distance if you juke bat by walking. You don't gain 8-9 meters of distance, as you would have to be running to make that distance, which would leave scratch marks, and let bat track you. You gain about 5.65 meters (less than one second of travel for bat). Even then with that kind of distance itself is easy enough to hear an injured survivor, there's less chance to juke while not Healthy.
The real question is what the intent of bat form is: Is it a mobility chase tool like spirit and her power/blight/nurse/etc. to counter shift+w, or is that the role of the wolf form and its scent orbs that give haste (with base drac being anti-loop).
Right now bat seems to be taking on two roles: Mobility and Shift+W chase, and steps on the toes of wolf (given that I think scent orbs only spawn from running survivors, so its whole mechanic is less about information and more about chasing down survivors after you've been impeded).
Right now wolf also seems to be taking on two roles too: Info and Shift+W (but to a lesser degree) and had its Anti-loop nerfed.
The modes are conflicting with one another and to be honest, I don't know which should be which and I assume players would be mad if their notion of what should be what is quashed.
Maybe if they drew a line in the sand:
At base
Bat: Mobility focus, reduced Anti-shift+W
Wolf: Info focus, increased Anti-shift+W, (keeping the Anti-loop nerf)
Drac: Base, AoE, Anti-loop
But then use addons to allows players to customize what each role does well to get it back to their preference.
Like an addon that makes it easier to use wolf in loop, or addon that makes the delay after exiting bat much shorter but reduces the speed given by scent orbs (either through a direct negative or opportunity cost of not being able to make another selection/combination)
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Right now bat seems to be taking on two roles: Mobility and Shift+W chase, and steps on the toes of wolf (given that I think scent orbs only spawn from running survivors, so its whole mechanic is less about information and more about chasing down survivors after you've been impeded).
the haste for wolf is to brute force strong pallets/tall wall loops down where hellfire cannot fire over. the form is relatively obvious considering that the wolf form also has base-kit pallet break for his pounce. in practice, how wolf form is suppose to work is that you use haste to try make survivor use a pallet then use pounce to either force 70/30(survivor has major advantage in dodging pounce over killer hitting it) or break the pallet, then you bat form for catch-up.
it is just that wolf form is under-powered. the haste isn't very good for forcing pallets down and pallet break is complete rubbish. the wolf is terrible for mindgames because it has penalty for walking backwards. wolf is brute force anti-loop+tracking.
let me talk about why i think wolf form is bad shift-w using this image. this logic is also why i think wesker is overrated.
The short answer is that survivors can walk around debris in such a way that you have no angle to use the wolf pounce. they can also often turn corners just before you can 2nd pounce. it is same problem that wesker has in his anti-loop. it is too easy to outplay. that is why new bat form really elevates dracula to be better killer because he has options to play around shift-w gameplay while other killers are forced into time-waste. to be fair, before bat form buffs wasn't very time efficient but his buffs made him more time efficient
bat form is shift-w chase and map mobility and dracula form is anti-bodyblock +anti-loop for low walls. bat form and vampire form do their jobs well. wolf form does its job poorly.
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Just because Hellfire can't go through tall walls doesn't mean it has no use in a tall-wall loop: It's a ranged attack, which can be used to ping/zone survivors if they're in a position where they'll shortly get funneled into a narrow area or animation locked, similar but not to such a degree as Pyramid Heads zoning while holding PotD.
Though I definitely see the point of wolf being brute force in rotund larger tall wall loops with constant curves (like the rock in your description) where Hellfire won't pierce through and you'll never really make good use of Hellfires range to threaten through zoning because the slight angle of the loops curve always points outward.
This is also the issue with the Wolfs pounce, it's a straight line like Hellfire. It's not an accelerated controllable dash like Oni or something that can wrap around that object. And this is where your point of the haste being under-powered rings true and the idea of wolf being a brute-forcer of strong loops. Maybe then the Pounce should be redesigned to be better/wrap around better, only problem being it'll step on the toes of drac's low-wall anti-loop.
Maybe if Drac just threw a freaking fireball that takes advantage of low-walls and has good range that'd have made it more unique to allow wolf to shine in close-range. But that'd have to distinguish itself from Huntress in a manner.
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Maybe if Drac just threw a freaking fireball that takes advantage of low-walls and has good range that'd have made it more unique to allow wolf to shine in close-range. But that'd have to distinguish itself from Huntress in a manner.
that would be pretty cool. i think they choose fire pillar design because it is classic castlevania attack in all those metro games. they had wolf curve around objects using the slide tech or some people call it hug tech because of blight but they removed it. i think that is fine as long you balance parameters of killer to be effective. I think wolf can still be effective power without hug tech if its # of improved even slightly.
you'll never really make good use of Hellfires range to threaten through zoning because the slight angle of the loops curve always points outward.
yes. that is what i mean. that is where wolf form's rush down speed is suppose to be good. Since dracula is pretty good with just its two forms, they might not improve wolf form. it would make his kit more well-rounded but i mean, if it killer already good, why improve it?
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Oddly enough, when I look up "Hellfire Castlevania" in google, the Castelvania Wiki shows Hellfire being slower moving fireballs that move across the screen (a slower moving ranged projectile would be an interesting zoning concept). Not entirely sure which game has that as pillars.
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Thing you are missing here, is that the Shapeshift cooldown wont change a part of that at all, it's a fundamental part of the bat's power. The whole difference for him being able to do that extra stuff compared to spirit is the fact that survivors CAN see him entirely and get a 48 meter notice when he is coming. It's not like spirit where it's a 50/50 guessing game.
As someone who has played A LOT as him, and against him, he does perfectly fine as a Low-mid A tier killer in high elo.
The situations you are talking about where "turn back before survivors get a chance to run anywhere" is simply just the survivor playing really really poorly. If he does just that, you DONT want to run away from the pallet/loop because yeah he will catch up to you.
In testing no matter the addon if you hug the pallet when he tries to do this, he can't body block you when he switches, and you have enough time to vault the pallet to the otherside while he transforms. This works both with and without resilience. If you play it correctly he has to end up breaking the pallet just like every other killer does (besides nurse ofc).
You can also play this same way with windows which is a bit harder since it's thinner, but you just have to vault when he transforms and can even do it early by predicting him.
Trying to get a killer nerfed because you don't know the counterplay + haven't actually gone into customs to test this stuff out is bad for game suggestions.
PLUS MY OTHER POINT
He could do this with the 5 second shapeshift cooldown AND before the bat buffs, because I was already doing this on Dracula. If you shape shift to fly over, it's not going to change the outcome cause of 2 small seconds, survivors will still not have enough time to get to another loop, and if they go to far from the pallet you can body block them as they double back, so the safest play was to just stay at the loop.
Generally going in the open against many killers with speed, like blight, nurse, spirit, chucky, huntress, trickster, bubba, billy. Results in them/or their projectiles to catch up down you.
It's just how some killers work, doesn't make them OP (except nurse)."A chance to run anywhere" as if they had the chance to run anywhere when the bat followed you and you still didn't double back.
Whether 2.5 seconds or 4.5 with add on, or 5 seconds, the bat will always catch up to you and switch if you just don't play well and actually play around the loop like you are supposed to with this killer.1
