Dead Hard Should Be Refreshable Like Other Exhaustion Perks.

there's a alternative make it thematic make it only work when you're broken my no mither stongs would go up and there no way to abuse it out side of some situations like maybe ftp but honestly i would love for a ptb to see it with only works when broken and see how it would play out

…That's a literal wall of text, so forgive us if we miss something.

It's not as strong as Mettle of Man because Mettle will ignore a down no matter what, exposed, deep wounds, etc. It also has conditions to activate and a decent "drawback" when successful.

There's like...2 killers that ignore collision, 4 if we're generous and stretch it. Meanwhile those instant downs only work if the DH user is healthy, if they're injured they can potentially take a hit and outmaneuvering a survivor is a skill thing so we're giving that the green light.

Them having to interact with the killer is A: naturally a part of the game, and B: some of the risk that comes with being able to ignore said hit. They can also still use it for those listed situations as long as they get the requirements and haven't used it on that...life state? (Don't know what to call it) as survivors choose when they use it unlike many of the perks listed previously.

Using this perk is not without risk this has changed ever since they removed the dash for distance that was problematic, now it requires not just precise timing but an actual prediction because you won't be moving far from the spot you used it and there's is a delay before you can take an action after use, the current invlun window is 0.5 secs so If people have a problem with the amount of skill required to use the perk then you can make it so you have added frames to the animation that aren't invlun frames so it does need a prediction to work because if the perk does not carry risk to use through its mechanics then implementing that risk factor through limited uses and additional requirements is not the way.

Now from what we understand of this sentence is you believe that you believe that adding limits and requirements to DH are not the way because it has risk involved. Being honest here, the three of us barely make heads or tails of the point of this sentence so a simpler explanation (or rewording) would be appreciated. If what we said is true, then we ask why should it not come with risk to ignore a hit?

You don't ignore hits with Dead Hard, I think something closer to that would be Off The Record, Borrowed Time, Babysitter and other Anti-Tunnel perks which i don't think Dead Hard should be repurposed into. You actively watch killer movements and predict what they are going to do in order to avoid death, similar to exhaustions like Sprint Burst and Lithe.

Soooo a few problems with this line of thought:

First: notice how off the record and BT give endurance the same as DH? DH is just on command.

Second: as we've said before, SB and Lithe are movement. You can still get hit and go down even if they proced while successfully using DH you keep going. How is that NOT ignoring a hit?

Third: We ask what you currently think DH is. Do you believe it is a movement perk?

Fourth: you have to actively predict the killer in any situation cause if you don't you die as survivor. For a example we love when people hold W and keep looking back as Artist. They often get so caught up by looking at our birdies that they don't notice how by trying to dodge them they are about to hit a wall. SB only speeds that up. DH could save their butts from that.

As for your last point, we're unsure as to where that came from but we'll play along. That point is in favor of DH having restrictions and limited uses because in those circumstances the survivors are likely to be hit, DH will prevent injured survivors from going down on reaction. If that could happen every time then there's going to be a lot of angry killers.

Hopefully we didn't miss something

DH nerf was not called for at all. Has a great deal of counterplay and ping destroys it. Very healthy perk and it was interactive for both sides which is always welcome.

Totally agree with you OP, and anyone saying DH denies a hit you can say the exact same thing for most other exhaustions, or they give you distance equivalent to a hit but without taking one.

They won't put it back though, good luck with this fight.

YES yes we are!

Hi @Jellocubes1738 ,

thanks a lot for your arguments. Its fun to discuss about it in a proper way. I really appreciate it. :)

I dont think that DH is a anti-tunnel perk. If I made it sound so, Im sorry. I was just trying to explain the differences between the mentioned perks and DH. Let me response to your prepared points:

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3812437#Comment_3812437

P1 - Dead Hard "Cancelling a Legit Hit" In your words here doesn't mean it has a stronger effect when activated than reliable distance from Sprint Burst & Lithe because the real strength of the perk comes from the movement speed increase that is base kit on all survivors when they get hit - as such I consider it to be at least comparable to a distance perk.

I honestly disagree that the strength of DH is the movement speed. In that case, I think the other movement speed perks a more effective and easier to use. I still think its a lot power to "cancel" a hit, get a boost, make the killer slower cause of success hit and use it in strategic ways or cancel outplays by using a key. I think these are the strenghts. BUT dont get me wrong. DH is a hard perk to use and kinda niche. Its very risky, but it gives a lot value imo.

P2 - As i understand the second line of your post, you're pointing out that most exhaustion perks have 1 "passive condition" and Dead Hard is unique in that it has both the "passive" condition of running and the "active" condition of pressing the ability button at the right time and that it should be hard to use because it provides more value than SB and other perks like it.

The passive condition is something what you will get passivly. Lith for example forces you to use a window or pallet otherwise you dont get your boost. Thats what I tried to pointing out.

Yeah, DH has the passiv one that you have to be hooked once, but that will happen anyway. If not, then well you played damn good, but it would be harsh to punish the killer further with a second chance perk.

I don't believe Dead Hard on its own provides more value than Sprint Burst or Lithe to the degree you need it to be single use per hook state while also requiring you to be hooked to use. The line this was in response to is mainly about the ability to use Sprint Burst and Lithe proactively - meaning in advance - before a survivor finds themselves in a position of risk while having the added perk of being able to utilize perk synergy in Vigil/Fixated/Urban Evasion to get back their exhaustion faster

 while 

in chase. This functionality being something Dead Hard in its current state 

cannot

 make use of. I think this limits build potential for the players that use this perk especially for those people that really enjoy the synergy perks aforementioned and have used these synergies before the Dead Hard changes.

I agree regarding the perk synergy you mentioned. Nothing to argument in that matter. About "more value than SB or Lithe" - yeah I think I get your point. You cant use it multiple times (well at least a limited time of usage) and its a lot more difficult to get value. Nevertheless, if you manage to get hit by using DH, it will give you more value than SB and Lithe imo.

I'm going to create a situation for you, you're working on the last generator of the match injured when you realize the killer is coming your way with a Pop Goes the Weasel and the gen is nearly done but will not be completed without a hit. Let's say you brought Off the record and are still within the active window of activation, well now you've done a conspicuous action having been on the gen and you will not get endurance. With Dead Hard it will require a bait or in other words the killer to blunder but you have the opportunity to take an endurance hit and complete the gen where SB, Lithe or OTR would not have granted you that opportunity. Hence, because it requires the killer to mess up and precise timing/prediction from the survivor i don't consider it to be an Anti-tunnel perk as much as they have tried to repurpose it into one.

Sorry, Im not sure what you try to tell right now. Is it an example to proof thats not a anti-tunnel perk? Then yeah, I agree and didnt thought at it as anti-tunnel perk. Sorry if I pictured it the wrong way.

Maybe you could give me a hand, so that I get it right, sorry :)

People underestimate the versatility in being able to scale distances and use distance perks reactively or proactively, for utility, defensively and offensively. There are many uses for Sprint Burst and Lithe that aren't just distance in a pinch and it is by no means a 

little

 bit of extra distance it is a sizeable amount that makes a huge difference if you use it at key times for the right purposes, in the right ways.

I completely agree! I would never call these perks worthless or worse than DH. In fact, I think those are better, cause of easier and multiple uses for different reasons. They are strong in different ways as DH has its own strength in his unique niche.

Dead Hard can only be used if:

the killer is in range to hit you

you actually get hit

you time the Dead Hard accurately in prediction

and you make use of the distance in a meaningful way knowing that you get it off

"you actually get hi" - That is one I think someone could do a buff in that matter to make it more usable for beginners. See:

DH stays the same except:

• If you used dead hard, but you didnt get hit, it wont be deactivated (but still exhausted)
• If you use dead hard and tanked a hit successfully, it will be deactivated

and can only be used for: body blocking, tanking a hit and some additional pressure on the killer in chase if the killer knows you have it which while i admit is extremely strong, It doesn't justify requiring a hook to use, it punishes survivors for playing well for example if you wanted to block for your vulnerable teammate endgame but you were never hooked.

Hm… thats what Im not sure of. Im talking about "it punishes survivors for playing well…"

There are a lot perks on both sides where you dont get value if you played well. Like NWO, NOED or Blood Warden on killer site. Like DS, DH or Hope on survivor side.

There are perks, where you only get value in specific conditions and DH is one of them.

I personally dont like things like, blocking a hit, cause you can, due of a perk. My reason for that is: Its a damn scary killer. Like hell I could take a slash with of a blade like that. It steals the fright, but well. Its just my opinion and I also know its part of strategy and sometimes required.

I play both sides kinda 50/50. I get the point, that you would like to get value of DH, though you wasnt hooked once and cant tank a hit, but at the same time, I feel bad for the killer, who might be destroyed by you, cause you were better, but maybe not your mates, still the killer will not get a kill cause of DH then.

I think its generally kinda difficult to make it that way to satisfy everyone, but I would take the call and say: DH is not a perk to use it that way. There are other, better perks for it. :)

Im looking forward to your response!

Dead Hard is still one of the strongest perks in the game and you want to make it stronger? No thanks.

I see enough people scripting it, I don't need to go against basically invincible survivors.