Why do we have 2 lose lose situations for survivors
Flashbang is a lose lose situation
Wglf is a lose lose situation
At this point what is next that killer cant do anything or else they get hit with a lose lose situation unless survivor screws up?
Comments
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what's the lose-lose?
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Equipping perks as survivor apparently.
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TBH the real lose-lose is choosing to queue up for a game of DBD. You lose because you have to play DBD, and your opponent loses because they have to play DBD. that's a real lose-lose right there
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flashbang lose lose is no matter what you do you get blinded
wglf lose lose is it immediately lose pressure in seconds
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Equipping perks that rewards bad play
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Cause people forget Lightborn is a thing that hard counters Flash bangs, fire crackers, Blast mines, and flash lights and gives aura to killer of that survivor. it also limits wglf cause you lose the light save hassle of hooking.
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Usually when people say "lose-lose" they mean "a scenario where everyone involved is forced into a result that is bad for them personally"
When you say "lose-lose" do you mean "uncounterable," as in no matter what you do you will "lose" because you fail to counter the perk? Neither of those perks are uncounterable either.
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Okay, title says "lose-lose situation for survivor", meanwhile text talks about situations where killer "can't do anything".
And as always the answer is the protection by our great Lord and Savior LIGHTBORN. 😎
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Yes thanks for correcting me for not needing a correction
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Im a killer main but even I think flashbang is a non issue due to lightborn being an option.
Wglf is a little op to be honest, hook someone they get a number of hook related bonuses like endurance and there is the issue of body blocking, sabotage squads pallet saves ect... Next option is to slug but wglf makes that very difficult. That's the lose lose situation imo, if survivors make it impossible to hook them it's a lose for the killer. If the killer slugs them wglf makes it a lose situation for the killer. Camping and tunneling works tho, wglf isn't that effective when there are less people in the match, especially with noed (because survivors don't seem to bother with totems)
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Flashbangs are fine as soon as they fix dropping them into the killer while looking at a wall.
WGLF isn't weak but I only saw it one time xD
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a situation where whatever decision killer makes to do with the survivor, it's technically the wrong decision that ends up wasting killer's time.
Examples:
Flashbang: no matter if you look at the wall, if flashbang is dropped lowkey right below you, you are getting blinded anyways.
Plot Twist + DS: killer wants to pick you up? They eat up the DS, you get free time to run to a nearby safe tile. Killer decides to slug you because they are aware of DS? You will reset back to healthy state and boom, killer again at loss
Old FTP + BU: Killer slugs? Bad decision. Killer doesn't slug? You get to use combo mid pickup animation and survivor gets up with free endurance.
WGLF: similar to old FTP+BU when combined with MFT
BGP: killer picks up survivor instantly? Free save.
Killer slugs in order to check if someone wants to save? Free save because you can jump in for a save quickly even if you are significantly distanced from a survivor that is about to be picked up.
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Flashbangs are mostly fine. The only things they need to do is deal with sound occlusion, so that the killer can actually hear the sound of a flashbang being dropped and the glitch that allows survivors to plant a flashbang inside of the killer. Both are bugs.
WGLF is fine. I honestly have no issue with it.
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Flashbang: killer brings lightborn, now survivor had a dead perk slot and wasted time following the killer for a flashbang
Plot Twist + DS: ignore the unhooked survivor and suddenly they have 1 dead perk slot and 1 perk slot to do something they could do faster with a med kit and no perk slot wasted.
Old FTP + BU: it was kinda BS tbh, but you could always turn around and hit the person who was following you, and I once had a game where a random duo saved me from a tunneler like 4 times and the knight rage quit so on the other hand, lol
WGLF: lol
BGP: lol
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Lose-lose seems to be growing in popularity as a term. It really seems to mean that on occasion the killer might be put in a spot where they have to make a difficult decision (the horror!). It requires a complete focus on that single moment in the game and ignoring all of the trade offs that take place. Namely:
1: That two survivors are nearby, 1 for a flashbang, 1 for a WGLF, instead of pressuring gens.
2: That the survivors took these perks to do this action, instead of taking other perks to do something like doing gens faster.
3: That either the survivors burned multiple perks on flashbang/wglf, or the killer just happened to get unlucky on who they were chasing.
4: That the killer doesn't realize what they are doing and now targets the flashbang survivor or spreads pressure or otherwise tries to prevent the situation from being able to occur.
5: That the survivors actually position themselves correctly for all of this without the killer ever noticing the set up.
6: That the killer doesn't have a perk or power that allows them to hard counter the situation.
But yeah, if you ignore all of that, how is a killer supposed to win?
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Thank you. This is very apt to OP. Most of the complaints on this forum are players who have no idea ######### they're doing and want to just change the game to their preferred iteration.
This thread is a lose-lose, by definition, for all of us.
edit: really? Thats censored? Double U tee Eff? And this is an adult rated game lol.
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Funny thing is I see it alot in my games, the lobby will even have 0 flashlights and killer still has basekit lightborn equipped and am like in my mind yay flashbang saves only to be light up with OOO that they have it lol.
Funny when people say flashbang take no skill but lightborn literally is the same concept of no skilled lol. Blast mine has a stun though interestingly so lightborn dont counter it strangely flashbang in re games by right has stun and blind and am not sure why it doesnt on dbd.
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best comment
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Flashbang: killer brings lightborn, now survivor had a dead perk slot and wasted time following the killer for a flashbang
having to bring perk B to counter perk A because there is no basic gameplay counter to perk A literally means perk A is problematic and needs to be tweaked.
Plot Twist + DS: ignore the unhooked survivor and suddenly they have 1 dead perk slot and 1 perk slot to do something they could do faster with a med kit and no perk slot wasted.
1. Anti-tunneling perks are NOT ONLY USED AS A COUNTER TO TUNNELING. Both their defensive and offensive way of usage are highly effective, and if killer doesn't chase you after you've been unhooked, that does NOT mean you wasted perk slots.
2. "and one perk slot to do something they could do faster with a med kit and no perk slot wasted"...what even is this take? People using these builds literally always bring medkits too and they will literally have 2 completely free self resets and will cancel killer's pressure + lead to lose-lose situations easily. Bringing a syringe additionally brings even higher overkill.
One thing can definitely noticed. Majority of this game's playerbase has not even a close idea of how many stuff they can use is powerful because those perks are locked behind a higher skill floor than other "simpler" perks. That's why huge chunk of the strongest survivors perks and strategies are the ones extremely slept on by an average survivor player, or it depends on region (many EU players are very well aware of powers of these, while e.g. many NA players don't have even a close idea of how strong they are)
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having to bring perk B to counter perk A because there is no basic gameplay counter to perk A literally means perk A is problematic and needs to be tweaked.
you don't have to bring lightborn to counter flashbang, it's just the most extreme example of an obvious counter to this situation you claimed is an auto-lose for killers.
also how the heck do you aggressively plot twist
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you don't have to bring lightborn to counter flashbang, it's just the most extreme example of an obvious counter to this situation you claimed is an auto-lose for killers.
if you throw the flashbang almost right below the killer, they will be blinded no matter what. Looking up, looking at the wall, nothing in the aspect of basic gameplay works + it's the way to still be able to do locker saves, even with the fact that it was removed for flashlights.
also how the heck do you aggressively plot twist
it is used in aggressive anti-tunneling builds, after forcing initial OTR hit, you can Plot Twist to make killer be able to do only one of two things, either pick you up and eat DS or they will be forced to slug you and let you get a free reset. It's excellent for both offensive and defensive usage.
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It's not a free reset though, it's a reset that costs at minimum 1, and in your scenario 3 perk slots, and takes more time than either a med kit or an altruistic heal. IMO the strongest part of this combo is the "- mental" debuff against players whose win con is to deny gameplay to their opponents
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it's a reset that, along with the whole build:
- significantly extends your chase if killer decides to pick you up OR gets you 2 health states without any other teammate required to come and completely reset you by only holding M1 while on the ground for the duration of basic pick up timer.
- drastically reduce the amount of pressure efficiency for the killer.
IMO the strongest part of this combo is the "- mental" debuff against players whose win con is to deny gameplay to their opponents
this is actually what average survivor that has 0 chase knowledge, but prays to god they will manage to play a mental game on the killer and make that killer completely avoid them after they get unhooked thinks and is of course…completely incorrect.
Once your macro in the game improves, you will understand.
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Ah my bad, I thought knowing what 3/4 of someone's perks are and knowing exactly where they are on the map, that they'll be out of commission for the next 30 seconds, and knowing the fact they're spening far more time than was necessary getting healed to full, was advantageous for the killer. Glad I've got far more experienced players to tell me that actually, survivors wasting their time while lying on the ground is actually a bad thing.
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Wasn't trying to correct you, just wanted to make sure I understood what you meant, as I was used to one definition of "lose-lose." Your way of using it makes sense too now that you explained it. I was maybe a little condescending by accident in explaining why I was confused, my bad.
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Is Flashbang bugged (the sound)? I played against someone with it this morning and heard the click before the explosion. They didn’t pull it off either. Lol
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Yeah. It's sound occlusion. Whenever there is an object between the killer and the flashbang while it's dropped you can pretty much guarantee it will be silent. Sometimes it's even silent when it's dropped right in front of the killer.
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There's plenty of lose lose like this for both sides. An entire healing build? Well you're facing Plague or Legion. You didn't bring Unbreakable? Well you're bleeding out. You're spirit? Well they have iron will. You brought NoEd? Well they just cleansed it at the very beginning of the game.
DBD is a very chaotic mess that is anything but fair. But it can still be fun.
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That would be a win-win to survivors.
Lose lose would be towards the killer.
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my flashbangs hardly ever succeed.
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having to bring perk B to counter perk A because there is no basic gameplay counter to perk A literally means perk A is problematic and needs to be tweaked.
This is literally describing why distortion exists at all, because the only "base kit" aura blocking is to be in a locker. And, well, nearly everything killers can do has at least one perk that reveals auras now, so you'd have to spend the entire match in a locker to counter them.
And distortion is receiving the nerf. So far, aura reading keeps getting added to more perks.
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You have not played killer and received a FB through a wall and it shows
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I certainly hope I haven't ever gotten flashbanged through a wall, walls are supposed to block flashbangs. If a survivor ever dropped a flashbang on one side of a wall and i got blinded on the other side, I would imagine that would be classified as a bug.
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Survivors can blind killers on a higher surface as well. So killer can get hit with random save cause survivor dropped a flashbang on a balcony or hill or stairs.
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This might be me not having English as my first language and completely misunderstanding what the term means, but aren't situations where there's no right choice also considered lose-lose situations?
So, imagine a 1v1, the hatch spawns on a hill, and from the hill both gates can be seen.
As the killer can stand perfectly still and protect all 3 exits, this forces the survivor into a lose-lose situation, as no matter what the survivor does, they will die. They either don't do anything and die by EGC timer, or try to open the gates and die by the killer's hand.
I'm checking Wikipedia and it does seem to mention something like that:
In game theory, a "no-win" [or lose–lose] situation is a circumstance in which no player benefits from any outcome, hence ultimately losing the match. This may be because of any or all of the following:
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Unavoidable or unforeseeable circumstances causing the situation to change after decisions have been made. This is common in text adventures.> Zugzwang, as in chess, when any move a player chooses makes them worse off than before such as losing a piece or being checkmated.
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A situation in which the player has to accomplish two mutually dependent tasks each of which must be completed before the other or that are mutually exclusive (a Catch-22).>
Ignorance of other players' actions, meaning the best decision for all differs from that for any one player (as in the prisoner's dilemma).While Wikipedia does seem to mention it's a "circumstance in which no player benefits", they also seem to add that a particular player having to chose between options that only have bad outcomes do count as "lose-lose situations".
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Yeah, I basically forgot about that definition and then I phrased my response poorly and sounded more condescending than I meant to - I wanted to communicate that I still disagreed while acknowledging that's a fair use of the term "lose-lose" but I don't think I got that fully across. I did acknowledge that in another comment but it was a lot further down and I know it can be a slog getting through every comment so I understand not seeing it.
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This is literally describing why distortion exists at all, because the only "base kit" aura blocking is to be in a locker. And, well, nearly everything killers can do has at least one perk that reveals auras now, so you'd have to spend the entire match in a locker to counter them.
repeat after me. Auras ONLY make it easier for killer to find a survivor, they don't auto-win chases. Basic gameplay counters to aura reading perks are good chase knowledge and knowledge, while there are NO basic gameplay counters to flashbang being thrown right below you.
Some aura reading perks deserve to be nerfed (NTH, Weave and Predator, people aren't even complaining about NTH enough) and magically only aura perks people keep using the "Distortion was the only counter" argument for are literally the perks that sould burn through the tokens anyways, meaning people defending Distortion don't even have idea what they are talking about, they just want to defend their refusal to improve in terms of chases and refusal to interact with the killer at all.
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there's build going right now for we're gonna live forever.
it is botany knowledge+We're gonna live forever+Leader+Empathic connection with purple med kit with 2 charge add-on.
the jist is that you can stack 255% healing speed for total of +500% healing speed to heal survivors off the floor. with med-kit it is over 600%. you heal survivors off floor in around 6 seconds. it is only slightly slower then killer attack cooldown.
it is 4 man swf thing though. all 4 survivor have to equip leader, botany, wglf, empathic. some player are calling it the new buckle up+ftp.
it is pretty uncounterable for m1 killers. you literally need stbfl to recover quicker on basic attacks to stop survivor from healing survivors on the floor and with so many healing perk stacked, it doesn't take long for survivor to fully heal since they have permanent we'll make it for atrustic healing between the perks. they're healing in 8 seconds if left unchecked. Other options are being Instant down killer or inflicting broken through forced penance perk
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repeat after me. Flashbangs ONLY make it harder for killer to hook a survivor, they don't auto-blind on pick ups. Basic gameplay counters to flashbangs are situational awareness and knowing there aren't any survivors within 6 meters.
Seriously. Flashbang delay is 2 seconds, survivor pick up animation is 3 seconds. Survivors have 1 second to get into place for their flashbang play, so even with BGP they need to be within about 6 meters when you start the pickup animation.
Post edited by ratcoffee on3 -
it is 4 man swf thing though. all 4 survivor have to equip leader, botany, wglf, empathic. some player are calling it the new buckle up+ftp.The fact that it takes 16 perk slots instead of two puts them on a totally different level.
Seems more like a meme creator content thing than a viable strategy. Given ping and other game issues rarely does the heal on the downed survivor start the instant of the down. Not to mention the whole build is ruined against many killers and a few perks.
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ohhhh
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Adding on to what @ratcoffee said
Auras ONLY make it easier for killer to find a survivor, they don't auto-win chases.And flashbangs don't auto win the game or stop the killer from resuming the chase.
Basic gameplay counters to aura reading perks are good chase knowledge and knowledge, while there are NO basic gameplay counters to flashbang being thrown right below you.And there are plenty of gameplay counters to flashbang even if we throw Lightborn out of the discussion. I don't see how saying that killers should get better at spotting survivors or predicting where they are setting up a flashbang save is somehow less basic gameplay than asking survivors to be good at chase even when the killer has a jump on them with aura read.
Some aura reading perks deserve to be nerfedIf we want to discuss that certain perks are too strong, that's fine. We could even talk about how certain perks might not be fun (good gameplay to be more formal).
The lose lose framework is just wrong though. It requires taking just the killer's perspective and just hyper focusing in on a narrow band within the total scope of the game while ignoring survivor observations of when similar situations happens to them.
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