Why do we have 2 lose lose situations for survivors

Usually when people say "lose-lose" they mean "a scenario where everyone involved is forced into a result that is bad for them personally"

When you say "lose-lose" do you mean "uncounterable," as in no matter what you do you will "lose" because you fail to counter the perk? Neither of those perks are uncounterable either.

Flashbangs are mostly fine. The only things they need to do is deal with sound occlusion, so that the killer can actually hear the sound of a flashbang being dropped and the glitch that allows survivors to plant a flashbang inside of the killer. Both are bugs.

WGLF is fine. I honestly have no issue with it.

Lose-lose seems to be growing in popularity as a term. It really seems to mean that on occasion the killer might be put in a spot where they have to make a difficult decision (the horror!). It requires a complete focus on that single moment in the game and ignoring all of the trade offs that take place. Namely:

1: That two survivors are nearby, 1 for a flashbang, 1 for a WGLF, instead of pressuring gens.

2: That the survivors took these perks to do this action, instead of taking other perks to do something like doing gens faster.

3: That either the survivors burned multiple perks on flashbang/wglf, or the killer just happened to get unlucky on who they were chasing.

4: That the killer doesn't realize what they are doing and now targets the flashbang survivor or spreads pressure or otherwise tries to prevent the situation from being able to occur.

5: That the survivors actually position themselves correctly for all of this without the killer ever noticing the set up.

6: That the killer doesn't have a perk or power that allows them to hard counter the situation.

But yeah, if you ignore all of that, how is a killer supposed to win?

Funny thing is I see it alot in my games, the lobby will even have 0 flashlights and killer still has basekit lightborn equipped and am like in my mind yay flashbang saves only to be light up with OOO that they have it lol.

Funny when people say flashbang take no skill but lightborn literally is the same concept of no skilled lol. Blast mine has a stun though interestingly so lightborn dont counter it strangely flashbang in re games by right has stun and blind and am not sure why it doesnt on dbd.

Flashbang: killer brings lightborn, now survivor had a dead perk slot and wasted time following the killer for a flashbang

having to bring perk B to counter perk A because there is no basic gameplay counter to perk A literally means perk A is problematic and needs to be tweaked.

Plot Twist + DS: ignore the unhooked survivor and suddenly they have 1 dead perk slot and 1 perk slot to do something they could do faster with a med kit and no perk slot wasted.

1. Anti-tunneling perks are NOT ONLY USED AS A COUNTER TO TUNNELING. Both their defensive and offensive way of usage are highly effective, and if killer doesn't chase you after you've been unhooked, that does NOT mean you wasted perk slots.

2. "and one perk slot to do something they could do faster with a med kit and no perk slot wasted"...what even is this take? People using these builds literally always bring medkits too and they will literally have 2 completely free self resets and will cancel killer's pressure + lead to lose-lose situations easily. Bringing a syringe additionally brings even higher overkill.

One thing can definitely noticed. Majority of this game's playerbase has not even a close idea of how many stuff they can use is powerful because those perks are locked behind a higher skill floor than other "simpler" perks. That's why huge chunk of the strongest survivors perks and strategies are the ones extremely slept on by an average survivor player, or it depends on region (many EU players are very well aware of powers of these, while e.g. many NA players don't have even a close idea of how strong they are)

you don't have to bring lightborn to counter flashbang, it's just the most extreme example of an obvious counter to this situation you claimed is an auto-lose for killers.

if you throw the flashbang almost right below the killer, they will be blinded no matter what. Looking up, looking at the wall, nothing in the aspect of basic gameplay works + it's the way to still be able to do locker saves, even with the fact that it was removed for flashlights.

also how the heck do you aggressively plot twist

it is used in aggressive anti-tunneling builds, after forcing initial OTR hit, you can Plot Twist to make killer be able to do only one of two things, either pick you up and eat DS or they will be forced to slug you and let you get a free reset. It's excellent for both offensive and defensive usage.

it's a reset that, along with the whole build:

1. significantly extends your chase if killer decides to pick you up OR gets you 2 health states without any other teammate required to come and completely reset you by only holding M1 while on the ground for the duration of basic pick up timer.
2. drastically reduce the amount of pressure efficiency for the killer.

IMO the strongest part of this combo is the "- mental" debuff against players whose win con is to deny gameplay to their opponents

this is actually what average survivor that has 0 chase knowledge, but prays to god they will manage to play a mental game on the killer and make that killer completely avoid them after they get unhooked thinks and is of course…completely incorrect.

Once your macro in the game improves, you will understand.

Wasn't trying to correct you, just wanted to make sure I understood what you meant, as I was used to one definition of "lose-lose." Your way of using it makes sense too now that you explained it. I was maybe a little condescending by accident in explaining why I was confused, my bad.

Yeah. It's sound occlusion. Whenever there is an object between the killer and the flashbang while it's dropped you can pretty much guarantee it will be silent. Sometimes it's even silent when it's dropped right in front of the killer.

That would be a win-win to survivors.

Lose lose would be towards the killer.

having to bring perk B to counter perk A because there is no basic gameplay counter to perk A literally means perk A is problematic and needs to be tweaked.

This is literally describing why distortion exists at all, because the only "base kit" aura blocking is to be in a locker. And, well, nearly everything killers can do has at least one perk that reveals auras now, so you'd have to spend the entire match in a locker to counter them.

And distortion is receiving the nerf. So far, aura reading keeps getting added to more perks.

I certainly hope I haven't ever gotten flashbanged through a wall, walls are supposed to block flashbangs. If a survivor ever dropped a flashbang on one side of a wall and i got blinded on the other side, I would imagine that would be classified as a bug.

This might be me not having English as my first language and completely misunderstanding what the term means, but aren't situations where there's no right choice also considered lose-lose situations?

So, imagine a 1v1, the hatch spawns on a hill, and from the hill both gates can be seen.

As the killer can stand perfectly still and protect all 3 exits, this forces the survivor into a lose-lose situation, as no matter what the survivor does, they will die. They either don't do anything and die by EGC timer, or try to open the gates and die by the killer's hand.

I'm checking Wikipedia and it does seem to mention something like that:

In game theory, a "no-win" [or lose–lose] situation is a circumstance in which no player benefits from any outcome, hence ultimately losing the match. This may be because of any or all of the following:

> Unavoidable or unforeseeable circumstances causing the situation to change after decisions have been made. This is common in text adventures.

> Zugzwang, as in chess, when any move a player chooses makes them worse off than before such as losing a piece or being checkmated.

> A situation in which the player has to accomplish two mutually dependent tasks each of which must be completed before the other or that are mutually exclusive (a Catch-22).

> Ignorance of other players' actions, meaning the best decision for all differs from that for any one player (as in the prisoner's dilemma).

While Wikipedia does seem to mention it's a "circumstance in which no player benefits", they also seem to add that a particular player having to chose between options that only have bad outcomes do count as "lose-lose situations".

This is literally describing why distortion exists at all, because the only "base kit" aura blocking is to be in a locker. And, well, nearly everything killers can do has at least one perk that reveals auras now, so you'd have to spend the entire match in a locker to counter them.

repeat after me. Auras ONLY make it easier for killer to find a survivor, they don't auto-win chases. Basic gameplay counters to aura reading perks are good chase knowledge and knowledge, while there are NO basic gameplay counters to flashbang being thrown right below you.

Some aura reading perks deserve to be nerfed (NTH, Weave and Predator, people aren't even complaining about NTH enough) and magically only aura perks people keep using the "Distortion was the only counter" argument for are literally the perks that sould burn through the tokens anyways, meaning people defending Distortion don't even have idea what they are talking about, they just want to defend their refusal to improve in terms of chases and refusal to interact with the killer at all.

repeat after me. Flashbangs ONLY make it harder for killer to hook a survivor, they don't auto-blind on pick ups. Basic gameplay counters to flashbangs are situational awareness and knowing there aren't any survivors within 6 meters.

Seriously. Flashbang delay is 2 seconds, survivor pick up animation is 3 seconds. Survivors have 1 second to get into place for their flashbang play, so even with BGP they need to be within about 6 meters when you start the pickup animation.

ohhhh