Why does Plot twist not count as self healing?
Was just a thought I had while scrolling. If you get unhooked and you start using self care, DS gets removed. You CAN use plot twist though for the same result of healing yourself which doesn't affect DS. What's the logic behind this?
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DS gets removed on Conspicuous Actions, not healing specifically.
The action of healing is a conspicuous action.
Recovering from the dying state is not. Automatically gaining a health state is not. That's what's happening with Plot Twist.
It's the same reason DS won't deactivate if another survivor heals you, or if you use Inner Stength or Second Wind to gain a health state.
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It's just the context of actions, "Recover" just doesn't count as a Conspicuous action, since Plot Twist use's "Recover" instead of Self Heal it's not counted. The same can be said for Unbreakable + DS, picking yourself up does not cancel DS from what i remember.
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Plot twist requires the user to actively activate it though. I really don't see how this is any different from using self care or strength in Shadows. Unlike being healed by a teammate, it requires the user to initiate.
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Recovering would typically just bring someone back to injured once up while healing would bring to healthy. This is still a user actively healing themselves (recovering themselves to healthy after downing themselves?). The intent is the exact same and the only difference is semantics.
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Please don't Plot Twist upon Unhook. It counts as a penalty to Unhooker.
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The specific action of healing is the one that is conspicuous but healing yourself or being healed in any other way is allowed. Mostly because they require you to jump through some hoops / put yourself in danger. Adrenaline / Inner strength / Second Wind / Moment of glory / Plot twist. All of these are ways of self healing without losing endurance. But the question is are these ways fair ways of being healed without losing endurance. I think they all qualify in their own ways
Second wind
Moment of glory
Inner strength
All have activation conditions that you must meet or waste a bit of time finishing meeting (opening chests for moment of glory isn't conspicuous) all of which I think make them fine
Adrenaline
Requires the gens to be complete while you aren't on hook. Strong but reasonable because it happens under specific circumstance
Plot twist
You incapacitate yourself for upwards for 32s and while it might tell the killer either pick me up and get dsed or leave me to be fully healed I think that's a fine thing to do since you could do the same exact thing without telling the killer thats what you will do with a perk like unbreakable
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Damn, are yall complaining about meme-arsed Plot Twist now?
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it has nothing to do with the strength of a perk. Just makes no sense to me that self care is considered a conspicuous action while Plot twist, a perk that has the same requirements of only working while injured, must be specifically activated and results in turning healthy... is somehow not.
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The difference between Plot twist and all of those would be intent. You can argue a survivor just wanted to hide in a locker and inner healing went off on its own. These perks activate on their own once the conditions are met. Plot twist however is something that the survivor has full control of when it's activated which is why I'm comparing it to the likes of self care and stength from the shadows.
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Plot Twist incapacitates a survivor. It’s more similar To Unbreakable, which also works with DS by the way, than Selfcare.
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Forgot to quote you in the reply above.
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Unbreakable only works while slugged and requires the killer to hit them. Plot twist is activated while injured by the survivor alone. One is used to counter slugging, the other is used to heal to healthy. Comparing these two because both involve the dying state is like comparing iron will and resilience because both involve the injured state.
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which one
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The difference between Plot twist and all of those would be intent. You can argue a survivor just wanted to hide in a locker and inner healing went off on its own. These perks activate on their own once the conditions are met. Plot twist however is something that the survivor has full control of when it's activated which is why I'm comparing it to the likes of self care and stength from the shadows.
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I think it has to do with flexibility and dedication
if you start healing with a medkit, self caring, or using strength in the shadows nothing is stopping you from immediately stopping that action and repairing a gen. You are free to act with no restriction.
But on the other hand if you down yourself with plot twist you are down for the count for 32s you can't just pick yourself up halfway though and decide not to heal with plot twist and go work on a gen. You dedicated yourself to either becoming healed or being picked up. This either functions as slowdown for the killer or a chips on the table moment, you know this survivor will have no protections after you pick them up for the rest of the game and puts them in a strong momentum push but a potential to lose the match by dying early.
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It's a risk, but you could say the same for Strength in the shadows. If you get found injured in basement, your toast. I'd actually argue that plot twist is the safer option than self care since it's stealthy functions makes it less likely to be found.
Regardless of how strong the perk is though, it's still a self heal that the survivor has full control over when it gets used. The survivor being in control is why being healed by a teammate isn't considered a conspicuous action for you while self healing is. The devs didn't want your teammates to screw you over by tapping heal for half a second.
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Plot Twist is a weird perk that is actually quite good at sneaking around a lot of things, such as Pig traps, Cenobite chains, Oni bleeding, as well as working to slow down EGC on demand.
It's weakness is that it can onl be used twice, and takes 30s to recover which cannot be boosted by a lot of the other healing speed perks, only benefitting from Unbreakable (which is counter productive) or Tenacity. You also have to commit, once you start using it, you cannot change your mind.
Plot Twist IS surpringly good, better than you would think, and really fun to build around... but it's not something I'd say is overpowered.
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Both Unbreakable and Plot Twist have effects that activate while a survivor on the ground. No where in the description for Unbreakable does it say “to counter slugging.” That’s something players made up. What the description does state is that it recovers a survivor from the dying state… just like Plot Twist. And No Mither and Exponential. You’re imposing weird arbitrary conditions to invalidate one of these perks and the more you go on the more this looks like this thread is a thinly veiled attempt at complaining about the synergy between Plot Twist and DS b/c plot twist heals a survivor along with allowing them to pick themself up. You obviously don’t like that.
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I never claimed it was overpowered. I wouldn't say selfcare is overpowered either... I just don't see why selfcare is considered a conspicuous action while plot twist is not. The moment you heal 0.0001 of a charge with selfcare, even if you don't finish the heal... it's a conspicuous action.
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Plot twist does NOT activate on the ground. Plot twist PUTS you on the ground, but you can't activate it if you're already down. The perk is used to bring a survivor that is injured to healthy. Every other perk you listed recovers a slug and returns them to injured.
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Well I suppose the point I was driving at is Plot Twist has a number of limitations already that makes it so having it be a conspicuous action isn't really necessary as I highlighted.
However tbh the actual reason is mechanically because it's recovering from the dying state, which doesn't make sense as a conspicuous action, otherwise you couldn't use Decisive Strike itself if you consider recovering from the dying state to be "healing" or "conspicuous".
You'd have to give the recovery event an exception specifically for Plot Twist, and since there are the limitations I've highlighted and it isn't overpowered... that exception just isn't necessary.
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Recovering from the dying state itself is whatever. I feel the act of activating plot twist itself though should be considered a conspicuous action the moment you crouch and hit the button.
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Ah OK, I understand now... that makes sense, but is this combo really overpowered enough to warrant it?
You can only Plot Twist once for the combo before the gates are powered, and it only works if you're actively trying to tunnel, which is no different to just running Decisive Strike on its own...
It's probably actually worse than running DS on its own, cause you can't even use it to body block, which is the usual pain point of Decisive.
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i think what you are trying to say is that recovered a health-state should be conspicuous action. That being that when you go from injured to healthy, the perk is disabled. it is something that has been request and talked about many times with Off the record for how a survivor can be healed and then bodyblock 2 consecutive hits with off the record. Plot twist is same deal.
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What are you still arguing about? Recovering and healing are not the same, even a dev has said it. What’s next on your list if plot twist gets butchered? UB+DS which effectively does the same thing?
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If selfcare was no longer deemed a conspicuous action, would you call IT OP?
As far as your question though, if a killer DID stumble across a survivor healing themselves via Plot twist, I don't think an anti tunneling tool should save them just like if a killer stumbled across someone healing via medkit. Plot twist is typically used outside of chase after all.
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Unbreakable has VERY little in common with plot twist. Unbreakable is an anti-slug perk that finds use if the killer downs a survivor. Plot twist on the other hand is a healing perk that is TYPICALLY used outside chase. One activates while slugged, the other while injured.
So no... I don't think you should be completely safe if you get spotting healing yourself to healthy via plot twist just like you wouldn't be safe healing yourself to healthy via a medkit.
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Killing yourself isn't a conspicuous action, otherwise you could argue that taking protection hits should disable DS too.
But...wait for it...plot twist! Nice Cage didn't actually die!
Please don't take my Plot Twist DS combo from me it's really funny
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Killing yourself isn't a conspicuous action
This actually made me laugh 🤣 Nicely worded.
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Activating plot twist isn't "killing yourself" though... It's a healing perk. You'd have to REALLY screw up if you bled YOURSELF out.
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We have reached the DBD stage where plot twist is problematic, oh no
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Sure, but thats if they "stumble" across a Plot Twist user they hooked 80s prior... and in that case that's the killer being lucky and being a little unfair they can't capitalise on it... however realisically how often does that unfairness happen? What's far more likely is the killer is trying to tunnel a Survivor... in which case DS is already doing the job, Plot Twist just adds an extra layer of protection.
The more perks you commit to making this work, the less gen speed up and healing you have for your team. Self Care + Botany is effectively just as good a self heal, and it also speeds up your resets as well, the trade off is, you can stop healing with Self Care and run if you need to, with PT you can't.
When you think about it, this is a very effective anti-tunnel combo. It takes 2 perks to make this combo work AND it requires the killer to come tunnel you to get max value. If they don't tunnel you, Decisive becomes a dead perk and Plot Twist is a slow, 1 time use heal (until end game). If the killer does tunnel you, you get your 1 time DS, but are unlikely to ever get to use Plot Twist to heal.
This makes this combo an effective anti-tunnel build. There is the possibility to heal with Plot Twist and then body block for Decisive, but that's such a tight window and so obvious, it's should rarely realistically come off... that means it's quite difficult to get value from both perks.
Explain to me why using Plot Twist and DS as an anti-tunnel combo is a bad thing? Aren't we supposed to be trying to find combinations to make tunneling less effective since it's the best way to win the game?
All that said, I will acknowledge that Plot Twist, OTR, DS has the potential to be quite an obnoxious bunch of perks, since you can body block with OTR, then Plot Twist through deep wound, and still have your DS... but again that is a tight window to pull off.
Post edited by UndeddJester on0 -
IIn the combo, plot twist is not solving anti tunnel anything. Plot twist is acting as a self heal... same as a medkit. DS is the anti tunnel. The "combo" is just removing any risk that Plot twist inherently has. If your getting chased down after unhooking, Plot twisting mid chase directly in front of the killer is as much of an anti-tunnel as whipping out a medkit and healing right there. Both are announcing "if you leave me alone, Im going to heal myself". The only difference... DS would turn off for the medkit.
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I feel your initial post was awesome. Good find tbh. And its not like you're looking to change anything, just want some clarification. Also awesome!
So many people just want perks changed. Its refreshing to have a post like this.
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I understand the point you're making, and I can see the flaw…. but you don't seem to want to commit to saying this combination is overpowered… and we're kinda dancing around that point… your argument seems to sit upon "Plot Twist heals me, therefore technically that is a heal, and should be a conspicuous action".
I'm not saying you're wrong with this point, but you seem reluctant to talk about the impact this has on the game as a whole… maybe the combo is overpowered, for scenarios I've highlighted myself, maybe it isn't, but we don't seem to be discussing that… instead we're arguing the semantics of healing.
If you don't tunnel a Plot Twist, then plot twist is a slow 1 time self heal. It's got a fairly long list of advantages, and a fairly long list of trade offs…. it becomes much stronger if the killer commits to tunneling a Plot Twist player and you take DS, and my question to you is, is that a problem given it is entirely the killers decision if they want to tunnel to be hit by this combo?
Pros: -
- You can heal through\bypass numerous things like Pig traps, Cenobite chains, Oni blood.
- You ignore status conditions such as Mangled, Haemorrhage, Deep Wound and Broken (if you wait till gone before completing).
- Makes the user very quiet and hard to see/find while healing for the killer, while also highlighting position to team mates.
- Can be combined with Decisive Strike or Flip Flop/Power Struggle under pallets for a safe method of healing off hook where you can't be easily tunneled.
- Gets an additional use once the gates are powered, allowed for an effective reset for end game and can be used to slow EGC for survivors while healing.
Cons: -
- You can't effectively move and or react to other game events once you've started healing with Plot Twist.
- Requires you to find a place to hide the killer won't realistically check. Either that or you are deliberately baiting the killer and the killer needs to take said bait.
- Once used in the main trial it can not be used again until the gates are powered.
- It takes a rather long time at 32s, and has very few perks that can assist/synergise with it.
- The perk is revealed to the killer on the HUD.
- Does not work from the dying state if the killer manages to down you before you can Plot Twist, making it useless for body blocking.
This is the list that needs to be consulted when deciding if Decisive Strike should be removed as a possible combo for Plot Twist. Does it have too many pros vs. cons? I'd say currently it offers more valuable pros than cons, which is should, cause it's supposed to a be a perk not a detriment, and the question is, does it have too many pros for the cons that it brings?
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As a side note to this, you actually can. Plot twist has 2 entirely independent effects.
- When injured, you are able to crouch and press the Active Ability Button to put yourself into the dying state.
- While in the Dying State, the next time you recover, Plot Twist will heal you to full and give you a speed boost, deactivating the perk until all Generators are repaired.
It's worth noting that the first element of Plot Twist, the bit allowing you to down yourself, can be performed as often as you want. If someone else heals you, you can immediate redown yourself (for whatever reason). You can do this time and time and time again until you fully recover and therefore fully heal, which deactivated both elements of the perk. Similarly, if you're downed for whatever reason but not picked up, you can activate the second part of Plot Twist to fully heal and gain the speed boost, even without forcing yourself into dying through the perk.
So the healing aspect of plot twist does activate while you're on the ground. It's only the ability to put yourself into the dying state that requires being injured, which is a different effect than the full heal, because it doesn't deactivate the perk after use.
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The thing is, this "combo" is different than other anti-tunnel combos. If I don't tunnel someone who brought DS/unbreakable, they have 2 perks that arnt being used. Plot twist is SUPPOSED to be used out of chase though. Plot twist even if not being tunneled is going to heal it's user. The counter to it is "quickly find the slug".
If someone self cares, the game acknowledges that's someone progressing the game (a conspicuous action) and they arnt protected by things that would have otherwise protected them. A killer, if finding someone selfcaring in the corner at a slower rate than plot twist... can take that chase without anti-tunnel kicking in. Plot twist though provides a self heal, progressing the game... but the user is still protected.
Sidenote... plot twist can be used up to 2 times, not once.
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Yeah, fair enough, I agree with that assessment, and I will admit there is an argument for it. It is a strong combo, and I wouldn't be too upset if DS was limited on it via a conspicuous action flag... but I also wouldn't be too upset if it didn't happen either.
The DS is a one time thing, just like the Unbreakable combo... and the difference is the Unbreakable combo can be used to body block, whereas the Plot Twist combo can't, so I'd say the two are on par. If you really want to tunnel a Plot Twister, eat the DS and carry on with the tunnel.
This is the crux of the argument, Plot Twist can't be used offensively, it is entirely defensive, and I'd say it's about as strong as the UB and DS combo, and just like that combo it dunks on lower tier killers more than higher tier killers... but I'd rather take on a PT/DS player taking 32s to heal, than have a UB/DS player getting in my way.
The difference vs Self Care is Self Care can be used any many times as the player likes with no limit… Plot Twist can't. Plot Twist gets 1 use before the gates are powered, whereas Self Care is as much as you're willing to use it, and is why it's still meta in Asia.
So I accept your premise, it's not an unreasonable change, but I think I'm kinda on the fence about it.
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I'm not really arguing that something is OP (god knows selfcare isnt), just that the ENTIRE point of introducing conspicuous actions was to separate people getting tunneled from someone progressing the game. I DO think it's funny though that the anti-tunnel argument turned into "I can't chase down the killer that was trying to chase someone else and not tunnel me". That part actually made me giggle.
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It is a way the UB/DS perk combo can be and is used is it not? 😏
It's value is questionable, and at this point it feels like a thing we have to live with... and that I suppose is where I fall... if I accept UB and DS as is, I find PT and DS also acceptable.
And let's be real, you an achieve the same effect with PT, Flip Flop and Power Struggle, and a Duo can abuse that combo ad nauseum. So again... the PT and DS combo is rather low on my list of concerns.
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i think PT has much better synergy with DS than UB, or even DS+UB+Soul Guard. One heals you completely + makes you able to pick yourself off the ground or forces killer to eat DS, other just gets you up and eventually gives you limited endurance if you pair it all with Soul Guard
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