WGLF + Made For This is just Buckle Up + For the People 2.0 except somehow even worse
lately I've been seeing a whole lot of WGLF + Made For This and it effectively functions like Buckle Up + For the People if the killer needs to slug for a prolonged period of time. The irritating thing is that the Endurance being changed to being on a cooldown instead of an activation requirement, but the heal speed increase makes countering this combo far harder due to how heal speed increases and decreases are calculated together.
Sure, you can't heal faster than the killer can wipe their weapon, but you can easily manufacture situations where the killer can't pick up without letting a pallet or flashy save off and it feels miserable to play against because there's not a whole lot you can do about it asides eating the endurance (which gives a 3% Haste that'll make catching that survivor much harder) or hoping the survivor fails to get anywhere with their 10 seconds. Even worse, choosing to pick up if any nearby survivors seem far enough away can feel really awful if they happen to be running Background Player and that survivor gets the save anyway.
Coulrophobia and Knockout with a Mangled add-on / Sloppy Butcher don't slow down WGLF enough to make the pick up difficult to pull off even in practice and Lightborn doesn't help if the survivor on the ground makes sure to go down underneath a pallet. It feels really bad when these mediocre perks don't do anything for you because this combo either isn't in play or that it's not strong enough to really do anything about it. Having to run perks to counter a problem perk or perk combo has gotten extremely old and it's surprising that it has happened twice with Made For This.
In short, Made For This + WGLF accomplishes something very similar to Buckle Up + For The People except it has fewer restrictions, catches, and necessity for some amount of coordination that allows it to be far more prevalent and easier to get value from repeatedly.
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I mean.... this was to be expected.
WGLF got both an increase in healing speed and condition removal in the same update.
You could do this same exact setup before, using For The People with it, but now, you don't even need that.
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STOP SLUGGING. I am really getting sick of Killers slugging and throwing temper tantrums at anything meant to disrupt that. Being slugged is torture on the player its not fun.
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You have enough time to pick the survivors up and they can’t fully heal in your face in time if you don’t let yourself distract and commit to other chases. It is fine. It only works when you slug, which the perk is supposed to counter.
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If you pick up a survivor underneath a pallet, a nearby survivor can drop it on your head and you drop the survivor you are carrying. You have to take the time to force any nearby survivors away (or down them) before picking up the one you initially downed or picking up the second one if you managed to down them. This does two things; it buys time for other survivors to do gens, and it buys time for the survivor on the ground to recover.
Made For This protects the healer so you can also just run to a downed survivor while healthy, take a hit, and then pick up with little to no repercussions as long as you can manage to delay the pickup enough for the downed survivor to recover a decent percentage. It becomes a 3 second pick up if the downed survivor manages to reach 50% which takes 16 seconds to do, 12s if they have Unbreakable. If a survivor is underneath a pallet, you easily earn this time, otherwise it can be done with more effort in the open or near windows as long as flashlights and flashbangs are in play and the killer didn't bring Lightborn.
Without MFT, this isn't really a problem since you can just go for the vulnerable healer. Funnily enough, Buckle Up + For the People wouldn't work if the healer was injured so they had to be a bit careful in their approach if they couldn't reach the downed survivor before you finished your hit cooldown. While it's hard to mess up, the risk of failure can mean that the plan backfires and the killer can win big. Here, you can be mindlessly reckless as long as you can get the heal off in time. i.e. there's not much that the killer can realistically do about it if the survivors are competent.
With WGLF and MFT, you waste a lot of time getting a single hook, all the while a survivor or two in the background are doing gens. Even worse is that this can be done at any stage of the game without any prior work to activate it unlike pre-8.3.0.
It's not even a matter of whether or not you are trying to slug. I've used it myself and it's really easy to get good value from it because the killer no choice other than to slug if you're nearby the survivor they just downed underneath a pallet, especially if you are using Background Player.
In other words, the survivors can force you to slug and then punish you for slugging without all that much effort or skill while not leaving any room for recourse. WGLF is fine on its own since it leaves the killer with the option of going after the healer and it's good to have strong options to counter slugging, but MFT goes and cuts that option off.
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And what else should I do? If I pick up a survivor underneath a pallet and a survivor is nearby, they will get the save. You can't just not slug in that scenario unless you really like losing or dropping survivors. It's not a temper tantrum, it's feedback to a recent change that may have been a little short sighted since they didn't notice the synergy with MFT or take it into account.
Being slugged isn't fun, but not having much of any counterplay also isn't fun. Both sides should be able to have fun.
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Hex Bloodfavor and its a free killer so no excuses.
- by any means and thus enters the Injured State or the Dying State, Hex: Blood Favour calls upon The Entity to block all Pallets within 24/28/32 metres of that Survivor's location from being pulled down for the next 15 seconds.
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It's also in a class of perks that you can permanently lose…
Even then it still is pretty dumb because winning a chase before the 15 seconds is up from the first hit doesn't reactivate Blood Favor so the pallet will most likely unblock before or during a pickup if the second hit of the chase is quick enough (funnily enough, Blood Favor is supposed to help you make chases faster). Punishing the killer for doing well is pretty dumb. That's assuming it isn't cleansed, or flashlights and flashbangs / firecrackers aren't in play.
So I have to run Blood Favor, Lightborn, and ensure that my chases aren't too quick by defeating half the purpose of the perk I'm forced to run. I'm all good until the survivors find my bones and I'm back to being defeated by downing survivors underneath upright pallets.
Regardless, it's a very poor argument because forcing perks to counter ridiculous perks / builds has been incredibly poor for the game health wise each time it has happened. Pretending that Blood Favor is a reliable counter, it is the same with Ultimate Weapon and Calm Spirit. Survivors should not have had to run Calm Spirit, a generally awful perk that even heavily punishes you if you bring it against a Hex build, to counter Ultimate Weapon, an over tuned information perk that outclasses everything in its category. While it's not as egregious as UW and Calm Spirit, it still is very bad for the game.
There were counters to 3 genning with old Eruption like Potential Energy and Repressed Alliance, but it's really difficult to lie and say that 25 seconds of incapacitated wasn't absolutely miserable and probably the worst meta the game has ever had. Same for old Dead Hard and Blood Echo.
Also, what about new players? New players often get matched up with more experienced ones as they keep playing so expecting them to grind to get a killer or pay for them just to counter this now common perk combo is a bit sad. Even then, it's not a very good counter once they start playing against survivors who know where to look to find totems.
TL;DR:
Blood Favor can be cleansed and then you wouldn't have an available counter. It doesn't even cover flashy and flashbang saves so you'd also need Lightborn. Survivors can just bring a flashlight or firecrackers or use one of their two free perk slots to use Flashbang once it's reenabled to put the killer in a situation in which they need to slug.
PS If the only other thing you could say in the perk combo's defense is something like "play Wesker or Slinger" then advocating in favor of this perk combo is not a very good hill to die on.
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Blood Favor is a Hex and therefore it can be permanently lost and render you out of available counters. Not only that but ending a chase in under 15 seconds does not reactivate the perk so it'll likely deactivate either before or as you pick up if you don't purposely defeat half the purpose of the perk. Punishing the killer for doing well is pretty dumb. Anyway, Blood Favor only covers pallet saves so you'd also need to bring Lightborn to prevent flashy and flashbang / firecracker saves once they are reenabled (which can blind you regardless of what wall you shove your face into as long as it gets dropped at your feet btw).
So I need to bring both Blood Favor and Lightborn and pray that my bones aren't found to avoid the situation that would make me a victim of WGLF + MFT. As it was with Calm Spirit and Ultimate Weapon, forcing a player to bring a perk to counter another one directly is awful for the game, especially when that counter either isn't reliable like Repressed Alliance and Potential Energy was with 3 genning and old Eruption or that can even backfire horribly like what would happen if you brought Calm Spirit against a Hex build.
Also you need to either grind or pay for Blight which isn't good to expect of new players. At least Lightborn is on Billy. Expecting newer players to get Blight just to counter the slightly experienced players they will eventually get matched with isn't good for onboarding and therefore really bad for the health of the game. DBD already isn't great at getting new players so a perk combo like this is probably in BHVR's best interest to look into and adjust.
TL;DR: you're wrong and the basis for your argument is bad.
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There are counters already in the game for everything you've stated, but having to bring X perk because Y is meta feels bad. Real bad, so I get that.
But… and this is the part that kind of sucks. If you want to choose not to use them, that's on you. You listed some things you'd 'have' to bring such as lightborne, so you understand the need. They are there specifically to counter things.
There are plenty of scenarios one can think up to say things aren';t good. "I bring lightborn to counter flashlights, but now survivor will save with pallet.' "I could bring a hex to block pallet, but survivor would cleanse."
Yes, these are called counter-play perks, but I've noticed killers want nothing to do with perks that aren't 100% guaranteed. This is on the player, and is something BHVR can't fix.
Killers are STILL in a much better position than survivors currently. I understand your frustration with the WGLF changes, but due to other killers living the slug/tunnel power fantasy's, this is the result.
The meta will shift and there will be new things to complain about. I do want to say thank you for your demeanor. You're keeping a cool head and thats rare on the forums. :)
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I'll be sure to run this broken combo in all the extra perk slots I have left after being forced to bring 3+ perks because I don't have comms.
Another issue where solo q gets #########
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
Honestly, I slug when the situation calls for it, or if all survivors are huddled around the downed surv. I think these things go hand in hand. If you don't want your killer to slug, or have incentive to slug, don't put yourselves in situations that calls for the slug play to be effective. Like huddling around the surv that is by a pallet. I think that people should play both sides as do I to understand the situations better. Only time I see a killer slug is when multiple players are by the downed surv, and the killer knows it.
if anything just run this build: WGLF, MFT, soul guard, DH. But I honestly think people like to complain about this issue cause I BARELY get killers who slug, especially back to back games where this build is needed.
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I don't think it is that easy to be an issue. Nowhere near FTP + Buckle up combo.
I really enjoy playing WGLF + Babysitter to deal with both slugging and tunneling.
Basically only thing where WGLF was beyond broken is against Twins. I can stay next to chased survivor, crush Victor after he downs a survivor and pick them up faster than Charlotte can get even close. It was very funny, but I wouldn't want to be Twins player against it.0 -
Thank you for the compliment and I appreciate you taking the time to read and respond to my post with some good ideas, though I got very long winded counterpoint of my own towards them. If you want to get straight to the point, read at —().
A lot of perks with counters aren't exactly meta like Infectious Fright (Calm Spirit) and Iron Will (Genetic Limits) or those counters have some use when they aren't brought against what you're using them for like Distortion by allowing you to determine what aura reading perks are or aren't in play. Even Dead Hard, which I think is considered meta still, isn't strong enough to make Genetic Limits a big deal. Kinda sucky that they exist, but there's not a big necessity to bring them, especially if you consider the opportunity cost of bringing something else that would help your performance or just act as a small time save like Brutal Strength or Nurse's Calling on select killers. One of the good things about Mangled and Hemorrhage being on timers now is that heal speed perks aren't necessarily needed to circumvent the healing penalty and forces the killer to push the pace of the match should they want to get good value out of the status effect.
There isn't much of a pressure to bring those counters every game because the perks you'd bring them against don't get you insane value on their own. I think strong perks should have their counters be gameplay based rather than perk based and, if they aren't always so counterable, they should be limited or have a trade off. You can use the block time of Deadlock to go for an unhook, heal, cleanse or bless a totem, or rotate to a more pressing gen to pressure. When a survivor has DS or OTR you can usually just not tunnel, but in the event the best play is to eat them like if the unhooked survivor body blocks, you only get hit with them once or twice per survivor at a maximum. Dead Hard is only up to two times, it cannot be before you hook that survivor for the first time, and there is the possibility of the survivor using it at the wrong time. Deliverance can only be used once, requires a safe unhook (lowering the team's upper limit to 3 if the killer hooks in a specific order), breaks you for a full minute following the self-unhook, and has either limited or zero synergy with post-unhook reset -perks like Resurgence and Second Wind. Perks like Unbreakable and DS are great in that they are a silent threat that punishes unfun playstyles while not giving themselves away before they get value so that the only counter to them is just to not do what they counter. What makes them difficult to also abuse is that they are one time use and personal, so if you use it, you lose the protection that they offer and they don't extend to your entire team.
—() Whatever side the game leans to, the strong point of DBD is that it has a large variety of perks, items, and add-ons you can use to make interesting and unique builds. There really shouldn't be a need to bring specific perks into a match to counter something that is overwhelmingly strong. It's bad when survivors need to and it's bad when killers need to because I feel it takes away a lot of what makes DBD special in the first place.A bit of an aside, it's less about the WGLF changes (which I want to stress are fine on their own and the perk is fine being strong) and more of a knock-on effect from Made For This being such a poorly conceived perk.
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I have no issues with changing this combo if slugging gets fixed. Because slugging just wastes my time.
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Excellent write up!
Read it twice actually, and the thing I'd want to bring up is the swirl of game is throwing in all the perks and knowing there's a plethora of options for any one build.
I know you argued against bringing certain niche perks to counter a specific things, as they aren't efficient enough. This is very true. But they are still there as options.
There should never be a situation where either side can 100% counter a build 'that isn't meta'. I think this is important to distinguish. Getting insane value comes from a small amount of perks that are usually just good on their own. When players find amazing combos, those are usually beaten out after complaints and snuffed. There are plenty in recent history to show as examples.
This is a strange spot to chat about, because I feel all points at viable and worth talking about. but that would ramp up to a very lengthy chat lol.
There really shouldn't be a need to bring specific perks into a match to counter something that is overwhelmingly strong. It's bad when survivors need to and it's bad when killers need to because I feel it takes away a lot of what makes DBD special in the first place.
This hits home so much. Amazing take and I 100% agree. But the more competitive side of players will disagree and continue to try to make that one build that makes them unstoppable. I can't fathom how that's 'fun' for them, but that's the beauty of being human. Well stated!
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Killers keep telling me to run unbreakable when they slug….
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