What do you think of reverted trickster with 4.5m/s?
Recently the devs asked, what our opinions of reverting him are and the only real complaint was “We want 4.6m/s, 4.4m/s is too weak/slow”. Most people agreed and like, that his power would get reverted.
I personally think 4.4 is fine, but his main event should not require 30knives, it should be 18knives.
Trying this might open up, having more killers with different movement-speeds, which I find a cool and interesting concept.
Comments
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he doesn't need any revert, he needs edited changes to his existing kit for what trickster player dislike about his kit(8 hit to get a health-state) and poor base-kit throwing mode. trickster is like pre-buffed huntress where huntress used to rely on green wind-up add-on until they made green wind-up add-on base-kit. now trickster relies on memento blades and all his other add-on got over-nerfed.
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His old throwing system was better and they wouldn’t remove the buffs they gave him.
That’s the changes they plan to do, there is no nerf to his ability other than main event requiring 30knives and laceration delay, which got reduced to 12s (was 15s).
The Trickster
Reverting to previous version:
- Revert base movement speed to 4.4 m/s (was 4.6 m/
- Revert Terror Radius to 24 m (was 32 m)
- Revert Laceration Meter to 6 (was 8)
- Revert time between throws to 0.33 (was 0.3)
- Revert Throw Rate multiplier for Main Event to 1.667 (was 1.33)
- Revert Main Event requirement to 30 (was 8)
- Revert Main Event activation window to 30 (was 24)
- Re-instate per-throw modifiers (Throw Rate +
Movement speed while throwing)
Revert addons:
- Fizz-Spin Soda
- Ji-Woon's Autograph
Then some adjustments:
- Increase Laceration decay delay to 12 seconds (was 10)
- Move Fizz-Spin Soda's current effect to Memento
Blades
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That’s the changes they plan to do, there is no nerf to his ability other than main event requiring 30knives and laceration delay, which got reduced to 12s (was 15s).
that is a nerf to his ability. facepalm. I am saying they should adjust and slightly improve main throwing mode to make feel less bad while slightly reducing power of main event throwing-rate increase. the current problem with trickster is that you completely rely on main event to be effectiveness killer. Main event is suppose to be aiding tool in his kit. right now it is defining tool in his kit.
revert trickster to his old self makes main event completely irrelevant and still has many nerf on his regular throwing mode. Many trickster player feel like base-kit throw mode is too underwhelming and his main event is only satisfying aspect of his kit. they need re-balance his base throwing mode so it feels less underwhelming to use so that your still a killer even when main event is not active.
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I am saying they should adjust and slightly improve main throwing mode to make feel less bad while slightly reducing power of main event throwing-rate increase
So what do you think this would do? I did also say that I don’t want main event to be at 30knives→ 18.
8 is too little and having it at 8 will guarantee, that normal throwing mode will never get buffs. There is a cost for making his normal and main event throwing rate better, which is logical. Many trickster players also say, that constant main event spam dumbs down his gameplay.Post edited by Langweilg on0 -
Regardless of whether they go through with the revert or not, he's still going to feel bad on controller and have one dimensional counterplay as survivor. Seems like a waste of time to even change him again, since I doubt anyone who isn't already maining him now will pick him up, and I'm sure some will drop off of him if he's changed.
Post edited by ControllerFeedback on3 -
main event is not being spammed. it is being utilized as asset to his kit. the problem is getting to main event requires to use normal throwing mode which feels underwhelming. the result is creating dependency to use main event to perform with trickster. main event is suppose to be a bonus that makes trickster as good if not better than other ranged killers when he has it but his regular throwing mode should still be somewhat feel good/rewarding to use. Normal mode feels unrewarding to use while main event feels over-relevant in his gameplay.
mind you, the previous version of trickster was that main event was irrelevant to his gameplay, completely irrelevant and normal mode still felt bad to use or has dev put it "Trickster did not stack up to other ranged options.". He stacked up to other ranged options now but killer is not just about power-level. it is about fun factor. the killer has to be fun to play. right now trickster is fun around 50% of the time. he's fun when you are using his throwing-rate main event and less fun when you are using his regular mode.
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That’s why they asked about feedback, because most people found old trickster more fun. If they revert him, I don’t think they will make main event 30 knives again, which I found too hight too and it made it irrelevant in most cases. I think 18knives for main event sounds fair for getting old throwing mode back, which was a lot better or not?
Do you think they will ever buff his normal throwing mode with current main event and current speed? I don’t think so.
"Trickster did not stack up to other ranged options."
That’s why I suggested making him 4.5m/s, a middle ground and not 4.4m/s. He would still be a bit slower, but not as slow as the stronger range killers.
About the revert in general. You know the redit post was to find out the flaws of old trickster and to find out whether or not they should do it. He is basically work in progress, which’s outcome the community can influence. They said themselves if they do it, there might be more changes to come. The major complain was only 4.4ms not the other stuff, that’s why I suggested 4.5ms.
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so m/s increase to why they changed trickster m/s is related to high wall loops where if a survivor is ahead of you in a loop, throwing mode feels poor to use because the survivor can LOS his throwing mode and at worst case scenario tank through his throwing mode because they use his knives laceration meter count as form of health-state tanking to gain distance. distance = time = less efficient chase. The base movement speed increase is there to allow trickster to lift his knives, go at reduced 96% m/s and than let go of his knives to 115% m/s. when your base movement speed is higher, the acceleration of movement speed is increased.
personally in my opinion, i think his throwing mode should just be 4.4 m/s because realistically, you almost don't ever want to be outside of his throwing mode because he is not an m1 killer. he's m2 killer and he only cares or should only care about his m2. 4.4 base m/s would make more sense if his throwing mode was also 4.4 m/s but currently his base m/s is 96%. He's as slow as nurse in practice because he spends most of his time in throwing mode where as other ranged killer options don't spend entire game in their throwing mode. they spend maybe… 3-5 seconds in throwing mode, fire a shot and return to their normal movement. in cases where they are in the throwing mode for prolong period of time, they are zoning survivor with their ability in very advantage position which… trickster doesn't zone very well or at all for that matter.
in any case, they made 4.6 m/s to make his bad maps less bad. successful? No, not really. At the same time, it is probably better then being 4/4 m/s with poor ability.
===As i said, i think they should reduce number of knives to injure from 8→7, slightly increase his throwing rate to 2.7 but reduce main event bonus to lower value than 66%. Maybe 50% or 40% so that activating main event under 7 knife count is not instant health deletion. their reasoning in my opinion for weakening his 8 health-state change was because they attempt to slightly balance out his main event throwing speed but in balancing out main event throwing-rate, they made his regular throwing feel poor to use. they need a slightly better middle ground between main event power-up and regular throwing mode. that is why his original main event was 30 knives… because 66% increase in throwing-rate with 6 knives injure is extremely lethal but with 30 knives to trigger it, it was impractical to get any use out of main event.0 -
The problem with trickster, is they are trying to make it so he plays "more fair" in the sense that, survivors feel good about dodging hits. But the problem is that it is antithetical to his design. Huntress and deathslinger are 1-shot killers. You dodge the hit, and you feel immediately good because if one of them hits you, you are gonna lose a health state (most of the time in deathslingers case).
But trickster, by design, is not a 1-shot killer. He needs multiple hits to get a health state. Which is why dodging knives doesn't feel good. Because you dodge one, but you still have 3 more coming at you. But, if you didn't then the trickster would never get health states, because he has to land so many knives.
What they need to do is 1 of 2 things.
- Accept the fact that they designed trickster to be a killer you have to land multiple hits with, and that dodging a single knife isn't going to "feel good"
- This is what they need to do and accept it, because its a lot of work to redo the killer again
- Redesign the killer completely to be about landing a single hit, or several hits in a row
- This is not what they should do, because we already have 2 killers that fill this role. But maybe they could make him about hitting multiple hits in a row and still keep somewhat of an identity. But doing so just makes him a rough killer to play for newer players, but good players will make him "too good" Because in order to punish not landing multiple hits you'd have to REALLY make landing multiple hits be good.
2 - Accept the fact that they designed trickster to be a killer you have to land multiple hits with, and that dodging a single knife isn't going to "feel good"
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I'm not a Trickster player, so my opinion doesn't matter as much here....
But why is Main Event not a thing you can start willingly once you get it? Why are you on a time limit with it?
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I don’t know. Maybe, because behavior does not want him to start a chase with it. They could remove the timer, it is unnecessary.
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i already know answer to that. it is because they don't want trickster to save his main event for proxy camping only but by putting timer, it is making the ability never useful if the blade count 30. so they balanced it now is they made trickster's throwing mode weak so that you are proactive encouraged to use main event to be relevant chase killer but a lot of trickster's dislike that aspect of killer. they don't like being weak for 50% of the game.
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No. BHVR asked players to give their opinion on whether or not current Trickster is more fun to play as, because a few people were claiming there was a giant consensus that pre-rework Trickster was more fun to play as, and BHVR wanted to check if this consensus was actually true.
And if you check the comments on that Reddit post, you can notice that the number of people saying that 4.6 Trickster was more fun to play as, is way higher than the number of people saying that 4.4 Trickster was more fun to play as. This means there never was a Trickster consensus. You can even see Reddit comments where other Trickster mains are clearly saying they want Trickster to stay at 4.6.
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I didn’t say anything different, so there is no need to explain anything!
Cool that nobody is able to respond to the ….question.
On Reddit the major complain was about returning the speed to 4.4ms not about the power!
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With the revert, I rather liked Revvium's ideas for Trickster, especially the combo system.
Revvium is (or at least appears to be) a highly skilled player though, so the combo system is quite reserved and focuses various Trickshots to be able to tap into his power, and a number of cool features... you can read in full if you're interested, and I recommend it cause it's good (the only questionable part the laceration decay).
However for a streamlined version, the highlight for me was the combo system, a bit like the Devil May Cry combo multipliers. When Main Event is charged have Trickster glow, like Plague or Oni does with their power, and and have more ramped up audio to his Terror Radius based on his current best combo.
This is the stripped down version lot of the more intricate ideas stripped out to get the idea across and to keep it simple to understand. Basically old Trickster, but: -
- Main Event requires 24 knives to charge.
- Main Event remains charged for 20s.
- Main Event has a base duration of 6 seconds.
- Combo system - Whenever the Trickster misses 2 knives consecutively he breaks his combo chain.
- Combo system - Unbroken chains grant ratings for from D(4) - C(6) - B(10) - A(14) - S(16)
- Combo system - While Main Event is charged/active, each rating grants an incremental +2% haste +2% action speed increase. Extra bounce and faster throw speed for A and S ranks.
This gives Trickster a unique flavour to play, encourages going for accurate knifes rather than unga bunga spamming, and it actually makes juking knives for survivors worthwhile to deny his combo power ramp up. What's really nice is getting a charged main event also serves to help Trickster traverse the map, even if you don't get to use Main Event it still helps you get back in chase....
With that in mind, I would personally stick with Main Event charged duration at 30s, and might also recommend a pause on the activation window during pick up.
Maybe even Killer Instinct for 5 seconds the first time each survivor hears his Main Event TR for the first time. I'd also consider dropping the knife combos to D(3) - C(6) - B(9) - A(12) - S(15), just so console/newer players can feasibly reach A rank more often.
However this combo system to encourage accuracy seems a very good direction to me.
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That entire idea doesn't work, because 100% accuracy with Trickster's knives isn't a skill based task, because that's not how his power works. Trickster's knives have a very small hitbox, and their travel speed is so slow, that even if BHVR programmed an aimbot that aimed every knife perfectly, Trickster still wouldn't get 100% accuracy against a survivor that knows how to dodge the knives, if the survivor isn't in close range.
Trickster isn't even supposed to try for 100% accuracy if the survivor farther than close range, and instead is supposed to repeatedly turn his camera left/right, to throw the knives in a small spread, similar to what Plague does with her puke when the survivors aren't close to her….. And that is a good comparison. Asking for 100% accuracy with Trickster, would be like asking for 100% accuracy with Plague's puke. Even with infinite skill, it's not a realistic goal.
Also, because of the recent Reddit Trickster feedback post, we now have proof that there never was a Trickster consensus, and that way more people think he's more fun to play as, when he's 4.6.
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It isn't 100% accurate, its afforded a miss between each stack, so as long as you land every other knife, you keep building a combo.
Let's not forget, that this is buff over old Trickster where his Main Event is more common at 24 knives, and if you only hit 3 knives in 6 in my version and you're still getting a small bonus.
Though I must admit, I personally feel like it's a little too harsh at 2 stacks, but I'm not a Trickster Main. Personally I'd drop the combo every 3rd missed knife, but I dunno how often realistically a Trickster main would be reaching S combo or not. I'd possibly even have a combo ender when laceration begins. This makes camping hooks a less effective method, as if just one of the survivors eats a knife, to block a hit, the combo is gonna be ended prematurely. This adds counterplay for Survivors more than just run between walls.
The problem and discussion around Trickster is he has never been engaging to face as a survivor. If you dodge a knife or win a mind game, so what? There's another knife coming immediately behind it. You just run from him trying to keep walls between you and him, and survive as long as possible, never playing tiles or trying to bait a shot.
This combo system adds a layer of value to dodging hits, since just spamming a survivor down doesn't play into building your Main Event.
All that said, even if you scrap the combo system, or purely make it an aesthetic thing, having Main Event pop and you become something a little like Plague where you're a monster with a unique TR/glow for a brief time that who wants to go out and make use of it while you have it would be really cool. Something like.
- Main Event charged duration is 30s.
- Main Event charged grants 10% haste for the duration.
- Main Event charged duration pauses while carrying a survivor.
- Main Event charged grants Killer Instinct for 6s on any survivor that hears the TR for the first time. Maybe pauses the decay for 6s.
The idea has some interesting options to explore for old Trickster.
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Main Trickster here. The best solution for him is
* keep the 4.6 speed, he is not comparable to huntress or deathslinger ( 1 shot killers)
* Revert his throw state
*Reduce Laceration to 6 instead 8 and change the main event ( 15 knifes to activate to 5s duration, stop de timer when trickster is carrying a survivor and the princiapl change about main event, REDUCE THE MAIN EVENT CHARGES ONE BY ONE FOR EACH KNIFE MISSED BY HIM) This change will keep the power of main event, but, will be reduce inderectely his frequency)
*Rework his addons, his addons are boring now
I personally would like see he will be compensate for long shot, maybe create an purple addon for every 12 meters inscrease 25% on laceration meter, until 2 lacerations.
12 meters - normal
24 meters shot - 1,25 laceration
36 meters shot - 1,5 laceration
48 meter shot - 1,75 laceration
60 meters - 2 laceration2 -
The problem and discussion of Trickster is that a few people were spamming posts, claiming there was a Trickster consensus, and the Trickster consensus agreed pre-rework Trickster was better. They were also repeatedly telling us how many hours they’ve played the game, or how dedicated they are to this killer, as if that makes them an authority figure.
Do you remember BHVR repeatedly telling us that played time doesn't have correlation to skill, which is why grades aren't an accurate measurement of skill? When someone tell us they've played a lot of hours in a character, that isn't an indicator of skill, and it doesn't mean they understand that character better than other people.
And no, giving us a margin of error for the combo meter doesn’t work either. Trickster should never be punished for missing knives because his identity is supposed to be rapid fire gameplay, and asking people to slowly aim every shot completely goes against his identity. The current Trickster already has a combo meter that rewards consecutive shots, and that is perfectly as far as a combo meter should go.
Post edited by Coffeecrashing on1 -
Sure. Personally I consider just pulling up knives and spamming survivors to death kinda boring myself, regardless of whether you succeed or fail. I've not really seen a huge influx of Trickster since the rework... and lot of his original fanbase has kinda drifted off as well... I'd say he functional, but he's kinda dull.
I just thought the combo meter, building to an empowered mode with some awesome music playing based on his combo scores was a cool idea that added some interesting things that would make him a little more fun and engaging to play. A bit like how Legion is fun to play with all the different tunes they play with the various tapes.
Would have preferred it if there were elements of it that might be worth considered for discussion, but I guess not. 😒
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BHVR could add music to Trickster's current combo mode, without reworking how the combo system works.
But unless BHVR wants to completely rework how knives work, to allow them to be guarantee hits at mid range if they are aimed perfectly, then it would be terrible to punish killers for missing hits. Because as the knives are now, they aren't reliable at mid range, and it's not a "maybe I could make it work if I practiced more" or "maybe I could make it work if I had more skill", it's literally "this doesn't work even if the Trickster player was magically granted infinite skill in the game.
Also, Trickster had zero identity when he was a 4.4 killer that is supposed to careful aim knives, because Huntress does that better. The entire point of making Trickster 4.6, and giving him much more frequent main events, was to give Trickster his own identity as a rapid fire killer. And current Trickster is the only rapid fire killer in the game, and reverting him would completely remove that playstyle from the game.
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All I care about is the recoil. Main event should be pushed back to the original state. The gameplay right now feel sluggish and clunky to me.
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Fair point, him having his own identity is not something I disagree with.
Though to be fair, you seem pretty quick to denounce the proposed combo system, but are also happy with the current combo system?:
Combo Bonuses:
- E Combo: +0.5 seconds
- D Combo: +1 second
- C Combo: +1.5 seconds
- B Combo: +2 seconds
- A Combo: +2.5 seconds
- S Combo: +3 seconds
Combo Thresholds:
This refers to on how many consecutive Blade Hits are needed to reach each Combo Rank.
- E Combo: 2 Blades
- D Combo: 3 Blades
- C Combo: 4 Blades
- B Combo: 5 Blades
- A Combo: 6 Blades
- S Combo: 8 Blades
The current combo system is worse is it not? You're punished with a shorter duration on Main Event if you don't land consecutive hits, and there is no buffer for missed hits on this either, so isn't this worse? Of course the reality is the extra duration often doesn't help you anyway unless you're in a dead zone or camping a hook... so isn't this current combo system rather unhealthy?
This seems to hint that having to land consecutive rapid fire hits is meant to be a part of Trickster's identity already... except the Main Event is primarily just an ammo saving tool right now that you use to spam to save your ammo cause it's so spammabale.
Like even if you dont revert Trickster, would it be more engaging to take longer to get Main Event, but he becomes a Plague level wrecking machine when he gets it?
I would also imagine with his 4.6 speed being able to position to keep scoring hits consistent hits for a Combo wouldn't be too hard compared to old Trickster.
Also regardless the combo needs to be displayed on his HUD better.
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The base duration of main event is fine, so it’s not very punishing if Trickster isn’t granted extra duration via the combo system. But a lot of the suggested combo systems involve delaying main event if knives are missed, which is extremely more punishing than being denied extra main event duration. Furthermore, there are addons that increase main duration time, so players could just use those if they felt they weren’t hitting the combo meter bonuses often enough.
And no, it would absolutely not be more engaging to have less main events, since that is the only time Trickster has any base kit ability to deal with 2v1 situations, like a survivor that is trying to body block the person Trickster wants to chase.
Main Event is also the only time where Trickster can try to hit survivors at mid range, without needing to worry about knife consumption, because the knives are so unreliable at mid range that it’s understood that Trickster would be missing a lot of the knives. At mid range, Trickster has to spam knives because the knives aren’t reliable at that range, even if the player had infinite skill in the game.
Big combos in mid range, just don’t work, and punishing Trickster for missing knives just makes him unnecessary weak at mid range. And if a ranged character is only really good at close range, then what’s the point for him being a ranged character? Trickster needs mid range options, and currently frequent main events is it… And the giant pattern of all these suggested new combo systems, is that Trickster would be garbage at mid range.
Post edited by Coffeecrashing on1 -
Because main event camping hook is a thing. IDK if you played during this time but main event used to be really bad because you had only a TEN second window to activate it. It was borderline bad because by the time you got it the survivor was already 2-3 knives into going down.
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Trickster with Main Event is without a doubt in 2nd place for being able to secure and defend hooks, especially basement (one can make an argument he might be even better than Bubba).
He absolutely SHREDS through people and I have several clips of me turning games around with just 1 activation of Main Event. To be able to hold that and not give any wiggle room to Survivors would be insane.
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The base duration of main event is fine, so it’s not very punishing if Trickster isn’t granted extra duration via the combo system. //...// Furthermore, there are addons that increase main duration time, so players could just use those if they felt they weren’t hitting the combo meter bonuses often enough.
But let me ask you this... if succeeding or failing at the combo system doesn't make much difference... is there even a point in having it? Why does it exist if its entirely superfluous whether it is successfully used or not? If it really does nothing of significantly value, just remove it from his kit entirely.
But a lot of the suggested combo systems involve delaying main event if knives are missed, which is extremely more punishing than being denied extra main event duration. //...//
And no, it would absolutely not be more engaging to have less main events, since that is the only time Trickster has any base kit ability to deal with 2v1 situations, like a survivor that is trying to body block the person Trickster wants to chase.
I don't believe the suggestion I shared does that. The suggestion I shared doesn't delay his Main Event for missing Knives any more so than the current system does. The argument centres on if it gives him significant bonuses that are good enough if he does land combos.
Old Trickster has a larger number of knives to charge his Main Event in this setup in his original configuration, but in exchange has a more powerful Main Event power when he does get it, and with this suggestion he gets additional stats bonuses to make it count. The concept isn’t sonething that doesnt have value to consider. Giving this power to him as he now actually makea more sense, since he's also now a 4.6 killer, so it's entirely within his control to stack to 23 knives for his combo bonuses, then catch a survivor with his 4.6 m1 and have Main Event ready to pop on the next survivor, similar to how Myers does now with EW3. It doesn't seem to be something infeasible to use effectively.
Most Trickster suggestions I've seen generally have been split by 4.6 = 8 knives, 4.4 = 6 knives. The combo meter is often a cool after thought added for good knife discipline.
Main Event is also the only time where Trickster can try to hit survivors at mid range, without needing to worry about knife consumption, because the knives are so unreliable at mid range that it’s understood that Trickster would be missing a lot of the knives. At mid range, Trickster has to spam knives because the knives aren’t reliable at that range, even if the player had infinite skill in the game.
The reason I'm not on board with what you're saying, is the original Trickster playerbase managed to be accurate with knives, and that was even with the recoil AND him being a 4.4m/s killer and having a harder time positioning. It's often cited from reading what former Trickster mains have said that the secret to Trickster was understanding when to pull up your knives to allow you to be accurate, more than aiming them super accurately at distance, which a number of them proved with doing it on console. This can only be easier to do now Trickster is a 4.6 killer, and had to be tempered by the need to land 8 shots instead of 6 as described above.
There have been/are add-ons that focus on you being accurate to recover your knives for successful hits or giving you haste for consecutive hits... it's seems like it's not something that's as impossible as you say, just it seems to me to require a different mentality...
To me it sounds like you prefer the spammy playstyle, which is fine, but the original Trickster playerbase does not, and Trickster isn't any more popular than he was before, so we're basically deciding which set of players to be catered to.
To play Devils Advocate, its quite evident you didn't like old Trickster, and you like new Trickster. That's fine, but how you feel about Trickster being potentially reverted is how his original fans felt when he became what he is now... so why is your claim to what he should be more valid than theirs?
Especially considering he is no more popular than he was before, and a number of them put in far more time to original Trickster than it would be possible for you to do on modern Trickster given the time frames involved...
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There's no "original Trickster playerbase" consensus. It's not real. It's not a thing. BHVR's recent Trickster feedback Reddit post proved this, and the comments are there for everyone to see.
This entire time, it was just a few people claiming there was a consensus. But it's not real.
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But doesn't the fact there isn't a consensus and the fact he's still not popular mean a shake up of his power is still warranted? The fact he is so divisive surely means more ideas and thoughts should be expressed/explored, should it not?
So why exactly are you so adamant to shoot a Trickster revert and/or a bonus for accurate knives down?
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No. The majority of people think he's more fun to play as 4.6. There are millions of people in this world, and a small percentage of them that think he's more fun to play as 4.4, isn't enough to consider moving him back to 4.4. And again, there's not giant divisive thing here. It was just a few people that were loudly complaining about the rework over and over.
I'm adamant about rejecting anything that lowers Trickster's movement speed, or anything that raises the number of knives for a main event. Trickster's identity is rapid fire gameplay, and BHVR literally said this to us. And I'm still haven't seen an "accurate knives down" that isn't an overall nerf to the character.
…….You know what would be a real accurate knives bonus, that wasn't an overall nerf? Keep Trickster the same, except if Trickster gets 6 consecutive knives hit on the same survivor, then it takes off a health state. That way, people have an "accurate knife bonus" that brings him closer to the pre-rework, without nerfing current Trickster. Or have a new additional mechanic called "Trick Event", where if Trickster gets 6 consecutive knife hits, he can press a button to unlock basekit Trick Blades for 5 seconds.
And these new things can be added to current Trickster, without nerfing him, because the slow/accurate gameplay isn't optimal, and it wastes time, so it's fine to reward people that really want to have slow/accurate gameplay, because it's really just compensating Trickster players for purposely using sub-optimal gameplay.
But, above all, we really need to think of the average MMR killer, that isn't going to play perfectly, and will miss a lot more knives than an expert player would, because they need to have a character that's still good at their skill level. 4.6 Trickster with 8 knife main events, is the best scenario for the average MMR killer, and the revert suggestions I've seen other people make are really just going to hurt the average MMR killer.
Note: (And if the "6 consecutive knife hits" thing is too overtuned at close range, then add a minimum range requirement… Or a "minimum range requirement unless it's a special shot like through a hole in the environment".)
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I don't think a middle ground of 4.5 m/s is necessary, to be honest, I think 4.4 m/s is healthier for the game.
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Trickster's identity is rapid fire gameplay, and BHVR literally said this to us
You hang on this point a lot, and OK, sure, but that does mean he can't ever get any meaningful buffs to make him strong or give him skill expression, cause his power is very forgiving and easy to use unless survivors play perfectly. That is the trade off every time for every killer. Low skill requirement means low skill ceiling.
If him just spamming knives and getting hits/downs through sheer attrition/brute force is the desired gameplay, he must always be weak because his power is woeful uninteractive. If you make him stronger with his knives, then he becomes oppressive, getting too much value for too little effort, i.e. the Skull Merchant problem.
This is basically the point about rewarding him for skillful and deliberate use of his power. Spraying Survivors down is kinda boring, that's why Trickster is unpopular. It's not like Huntress where dodging an axe is a rewarding mind game to play around for both sides, Trickster has no need for accuracy or dodging cause he just spams.
Sure 4.4 might not be the way to go, fair enough. The combo system I've mentioned could work perfectly fine with a Main Event that needs to be charged up through accurate use of knives, especially given he is a 4.6 killer now that can fall back on normal m1 gameplay if needed. A smart Trickster can hold his Main Event to pop it when they need it. That's a valid argument for 4.6.
However I don't think dying on the hill of "he's supposed to spam, so don't take away his ability to spam his ult, as this helps low accuracy players get downs consistently" is particularly helpful...
It is a direction... it doesn't mean it's a good one.
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I hope he stays at 115% i like him that way :)
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Thank you for answering the question. You are the only two, who responded to the speed, which was my actual question.
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For a bit of context, we typically try to avoid setting movement speeds to unusual numbers like 4.5m/s. It's not a hard rule and there are some exceptions, like Killers who aren't meant to chase without using their Powers, but we try not to deviate from it unless we have a good reason to.
A big part of this is that the consistency in movement speeds makes it easier to transfer your skills from one Killer to another. If you've played a 4.4m/s Killer before, you could play another and have a good feel for how long it'll take to catch up and judge the safety of loops. This is one less thing you have to worry about learning for each new Killer. The same goes for Survivors, where they can use what they know about other Killers of that speed to determine their next move.
A good example of this in action is when Haste or Hindered comes into play in a chase. It makes it much easier to misjudge whether you'll make it back to the pallet/window in time.
That's not to say that it's out of the question, but we try not to break this consistency unless we have a very good reason to.
Post edited by Peanits on11 -
Tricksters knives are purposely designed for rapid fire gameplay. That’s why the hitbox is so small, it’s why the travel speed is so slow when considering the hitbox size, and why he throws knives from two different locations. This is also specifically done so that the knives are a battle of attrition, where the survivors are trying to dodge as many knives as possible, and try to time out the laceration meter.
Trickster’s knives are unreliable at mid range, even if the player has infinite skill in the game. Trickster’s knives would need to be redesigned if players are expected to have a higher accuracy requirement than current Trickster.
Also, we were given the above stats earlier this year, and Trickster’s pick rate was fine. The whole argument that “Trickster is unpopular to play as because people don’t like his rework”, is completely false. In fact, his pick rate went up with the rework, because he was easier to learn and use.
Every time I played pre-rework Trickster, I would think “Huntress would have gotten a hit there”, and “Huntress could have hit the survivor there”, and “Huntress could have gotten a hit there too”. Because when you have two killers that are supposed to carefully aim projectiles that work similarly.. and one of these killers has a projectile that only needs to hit once, has a much bigger hitbox, and is way more reliable to hit with, then what is the point of playing the weaker character? There wasn’t a point of playing pre-rework Trickster, and there wouldn’t be a point in playing any new version of Trickster that requires carefully aimed shots, because people would literally just be better off playing Huntress instead because she does that better.
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I’m very happy to get an answer on this one.
I find the concept of making killers different (besides the power) very interesting. For example different melee attack ranges (like when you have a spear/big weapon or small weapon, but l see why this would be annoying), different big terror radius (please go more into this and make some tiny, medium and huge), different carry speeds (I think pig once had a faster one, before it got standardized), … and different movement-speeds.
I like for example, that nurse has 3.8m/s and is forced to use her power most of the time. Playing around killer powers is more fun for me than playing around m1s.
Back to 4.5m/s: I don’t think anyone would complain about a killer being 4.5m/s, when it makes sense of course and like you said we already have haste perks, so players already have to play around it. Most people would probably adept rather quickly and it would also open up new possibilities for example a 28m terror radius according to your formula. The reason why I came up with it, was that some killers are “too” fast with 4.6m/s and others are “too” slow with 4.4m/s. The difference of being 4.4m/s and 4.6m/s is quite big and there might be killers in the future, where a middle ground might be a good solution, instead of making said killer too fast or too slow.
That's not to say that it's out of the question, but we try not to break this consistency unless we have a very good reason to.
I’m happy, it is not out of question and I hope you try out more new stuff in the future, because I like when things are different from one and another.
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The only killers that make sense being 110% are Hag and Spirit. Deathslinger, Huntress, Chucky, and Trickster should be 115%. It doesn't make sense these killers being 110% when there are 115% killer with much better chase powers and actual 4v1, like Artist, Blight, Plague, and Unknown.
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So they will make main event irrelevant again…damn
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If they go with 30, what I don’t think, then yes.
The post on redit was to find out whether or not they should do it and to get feedback on what should get changed if they go back to his old design. It is possible, that he gets reverted with more buffs or that he stays like he is right now. We don’t know, what they will do.
I’m very certain, that if they revert him, he will get more changes and one of them would probably be that main event requires between 12-24knives. Can’t say how far they would lower it tho. I think 18 would be good and fair to get it.
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I'll chalk that up as an oversight, rather than being deliberate… however considering these stats were posted 15th Feburary 2024, covering the months of January 13th - February 12th 2024, and Trickster's rework being November 28th 2023, with further updates 13th December 2023 (which were mostly buffs), that is not at all a fair comparison of Trickster's play rate, and to claim it is would be rather disingenuous igven his rework was new and after the Christmas break.
His rework was still new at that point in time with people still exploring and figuring him out. Also the stats are rounded so not really a good comparison. 3% could be 2.5% and would barely uptick over his normal play rate. That's hardly a resounding success of a rework.
To try and be more fair, in the 2022 stats he was 17/29, which basically puts him in the bottom 42% of killers.
Taking Nightlight for his modern pickrate, he is 2.11%, placing him at 24/37 in the killer list.
That puts him in on the edge of the bottom 2/3 of killers, at 35%. Now I could say that his pick rate is lower and his overall position in the roster is lower, therefore he is worse… but that would disingenuous because there are 8 more killers to pick from added, and the landscape of the game is very different since then. The reality is his pickrate hasn't really changed much positively or negatively.
So yes him being worse since his rework is not true…. but also your point of "he is more popular since his reworks" is also not true. He wasn't popular to begin with, and still isn't popular now.
At the end of the day, my point stands. Trickster is spammy and boring, and as such he is not a popular killer, and won't be whilstsoever he remains as he is. His kill rate is bad, but he cannot be meaningfully buffed because his relative skill is low, and to buff him would make him brain dead, so this is where he sits.
If you like that, fine, but the arguments posed by the Trickster mains who preferred accurate knives over spam, and want rewards for being accurate and deliberate with their knives are more compelling to me personally. So we'll have to agree to disagree.
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It’s not an oversight. Patch 7.4.0 was the major change patch, and patch 7.4.2 was very minor in comparison.
Also, when working with third party data, you need to show a data trend over time. You can’t just give us one data point, because you didn’t prove whether or not there is a data offset between the official data and the third party data.
Also, I don’t agree to disagree, because that is admitting both viewpoints might be valid. They aren’t. There was a small group of people claiming their opinions were more important than other people because of the number of hours they played, and they claimed they understood Trickster better than other people because of the number of hours they played, and they gave us a false story about a Trickster consensus. None of that is compelling.
In reality, dedication and devotion don’t have a good correlation to how well a person understands Trickster. And the number of hours played doesn’t have a good correlation to a player’s skill with Trickster. In fact, Trickster might be the best thing that has ever happened in a person’s life, and that still wouldn’t have a good correlation to how well that person understands Trickster.
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Sure, you're right. No more discussion required.
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Trickster may be better now, but he feels worse and lame to play. If a decent fun kit requires 4.4 for balance I'm all for it.
Simple fact is...why many knife when bat do trick?
I say this as an Xbox player who couldn't hit the broad side of a Roadhog with 4.4 Trickster
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THIS 100% THANK YOU even a not trickster main gets it this has been a HIGHLY requested thing since he first launched even during his PTB.
Why do we have to take ages to get Main Event just for it to expire in 15 seconds look at Oni he gets his and has a signal he has it by making him glowing red Just make trickster keep main event and make him glow yellow or purple
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Idk why you say the travel speed is slow when its the fastest projectiles in the entire game. Considering the hitbox size doesn't really mean much since we're quantifying application of counterplay and gameplay and 55 m/s isn't dodgeable if the Trickster is good at aiming. Long range shots are the only equitable shots to Huntress or slinger's close range dodgeability since the point at which human reactivity can realistically read for these movements is double the distance of a noncharged hatchet and 20% further than a fully charged hatchet + Deathslinger harpoon.
This killer cannot and should not be balanced around dodging, which was the premise that the November rework lead with as the shots that Trickster throws are on him to miss, and not on the survivors to dodge.
Deathslinger:- Harpoon fires at a speed of 40 m/s
Huntress:
- Releasing at minimum charge throws them at 25 m/s.
- Releasing at maximum charge throws them at 40 m/s.
Unknown:
- Maximum Projectile Speed: 50 m/s
Trickster:
- Blades are launched at a speed of 55 m/s.
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My pitch doesn't require 100% accuracy btw or anywhere near it.
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Huntress 115, I want what ever you're smoking, she still needs her buffs reverted my guy.
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A lot of my issues with 110 get solved by simply making him 115 in main event window (to position main events at the effectiveness of current Trickster) and adding some sort of distance multiplier on damage of knives.
112.5 can work and would probably be fine, distance around loops isn't really easy to gauge from survivor perspective anyway since he can lift and set down his knives within a .5 second window effectively changing tile length anyway in a more fluid way than any other killer. They could look at knife lifting speed, or knife set down speed instead potentially. I do very much think that old Trickster was significantly more interesting from both sides, I played against one of the better Trickster's on my server yesterday and memento at 4.6 feels unstoppable with even the slightest lack of team coordination.This character used to have interesting macro against it, now if the Trickster is good the game just consists of edge-mapping him on repeat, which is so boring its unbelievable (in the off-chance you even see one, they're basically extinct at this point) but some people are still holding onto all of their tools that requires very little time investment regardless of having only like 3 addons to pick from that are viable…
Main Event can lead to some instant 4 on the floor scenarios with certain addon combos and overall the skill needs to be re-injected into the kit, I'll hold my breath and hope that it comes, until then we wait!P.S. its really cool to hop into a Trickster thread i'm tagged in and can guarantee someone is here talking smack about me when i've only tried to be a good ambassador for the Trickster community in good faith argument, would appreciate it if we did better at respecting other people.
-Revvium 😘
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I've posted much more complicated changes i'd make on reddit though, I don't like taking up space in a place where it wasn't asked in specific. There's many different ways that this character can be tuned (hell we've seen like 4 or 5 different incarnations of him already that all played very differently) but we'll only get it right if we conversate in good faith.
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