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When are we going to address slugging?
This issue has gotten 10x worse this past patch, because for some reason the devs think that killers need moris basekit. Now every match is just killers slugging people out instead of hooking so they can get the mori.
There needs to be a base mechanic to address this. Funnily enough, they were going to do this alongside the original basekit mori, but forum killers complained and complained and so the devs had to roll it back. Typical.
Come on, devs.
Comments
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Please call things their names.
In particular, you're talking about "slugging for 4k" rather than slugging in general.
It should be addressed, preferably alongside cheap hatch/gates mechanic.
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Nope, I mean slugging in general! Slugging for the 4k just happens to be a specific instance of it.
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then your take is incorrect and i hope you play this game enough to understand that.
nothing changed recently to make general slugging a better strategy, especially new basekit mori addition.
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Survivors equally complained about the finisher Mori so much (and for some good reasons) so they scrapped both the Mori and basekit UB.
Basekit Unbreakable as it is NOT needed and would be way overturned. Maybe an UB that was 90 seconds and gave endurance and a speed boost would be good.
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Both the original ptb finisher mori and base kit unbreakable were terrible ideas. You could see that from the 90 seconds of took some killers to slug all 4 survivors and auto-win the game: that version of finished Mori was busted.
I'm not sure why you jumped on base kit unbreakable though, since OP said nothing about that whatsoever. He didn't define what "mechanic" would fix it, and honestly I'm not sure either.
Reworking hatch and letting survivors speed up the bleed out are long overdue either way.
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The fact that they originally had the basekit Unbreakable alongside a previous iteration of the Finisher Mori suggests they knew an increase in slugging would be a consequence. It's been a couple of years in the making so the fact that they were happy to release it now suggests they don't actually care about an increase in slugging because any attempts to address it are completely gone because killers weren't happy.
We all know special moris will be available in store soon, so the situation will only get worse as people will be determined to get what they paid for. After 2 years in the making I'd say the devs are content with the situation and I can't see them doing anything about it. If they do I would be pleasantly surprised but I'm not holding my breath.
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sigh
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My survivor needs a tamagotchi they can play with while slugged. Let me feed and raise a tiny 1 bit killer while I bleed to death.
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they need to copy that system from VHS where your soul became a roaming ghost collecting whatever to come back.
maybe not with adding basekit unbreakable to it, but just a fun minigame to play while on the floor.
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Genuine question
Do you bring any anti slug perks? If so, which.
I wanna know how many people are actually using existing tools or not.
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That’s like asking why a Killer was complaining about the double-locker chain blind loop because they could have brought Lightborn.
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That's asking people to reserve one perk slot at all times aka making a perk obligatory to run. - It's also the exact reason why BT is basekit. No perk should be obligatory to run to deal with a base game mechanic. In case of bt that was unhooking. In case of finisher moris that's slugging the next-to-last.
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All jokes aside, that might be a good idea! Maybe not tamagotchi but some kind of side game, I don’t know maybe even access to spending bloodpoints on the web or - something? lol
I would even say a way of remotely working on a Gen at much slower speeds after a certain duration of being left slugged but I can only imagine the pitchforks that would come out so yeah, maybe feeding one bit digital pets will cause less outrage lol
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Slugging is a result of survivors own making. You want gens done faster and nerf regress perks? Result is killer doesn't have time to pick up, walk to hook and repeat so they slug. You want your flashlights, flashbangs, sabo, pallet saves or anything else that prevents a killer from picking up a survivor after they spent ages trying to down them? Result is killer will stop going for pick up and slug. You want the free hatch escape as last survivor even tho the team failed to do the gens and open the gate? Result is the last 2 players get slugged.
Some killers slug for toxic purposes but most killers slug out of necessity or out of being the optimal strategy. I'm not saying it's fun to be slugged but that's the road it gone and will continue to go unless the reasons why slugging happens are dealt with. The mori system may contribute to slugging but it's by no means the main cause.
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Pretty much like killers have to run lightborn all the time. It hasn't been that bad since flashbangs was killswitched but since they have been activated again lightborn is a must for a lot of killers because it can be nearly impossible to hook people with so many flash bangs and flashlights.
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Experiences clearly vary - but neither I nor (killer) streamers I watch see nearly as much fl/fb as there's slugging for the mori. It's a far cry from a must. - Besides. The killer has a way to deal with it basekit: not pick them up without thorough checking. The absolutely only way for a survivor to deal with being slugged as the second-to-last is to equip a perk that allows them to pick themselves up.
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So the counter to flashbangs is slug as they can't hook... But people don't like slugging so they want a counter to it. Means killers can't hook or slug. What's a killer to do? Basekit counter to slugging is the team, they heal you. If you want to go solo and counter it yourself then yes a perk should be used but it's a team game so the team is the basekit counter. It doesn't help the last survivor but that's because if the last survivor is slugged then they are already pretty much dead
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Brilliant reasoning. They could remove all those things, increase gen times to 300s and slugging would be just as strong. The only thing you said was "survivors exist so killers slug".
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I find slugging overall annoying - however, there are generally called for situations where both slugging and camping are perfectly alright. - I'm referring to slugging for mori specifically.
The team is no counter - in no situation. Going a bit on a tangent here; Dbd is about four individuals happening to have the same objective (completing gens) - that's the extent of "team" as per the devs definition. Any "altruistic" action a survivor takes is aimed at that objective. (Which is the whole problem of the 2v1 situation in general)
If anything the slugging for mori thing is comparable to survs not leaving the exit gate. The difference there? The killer has agency in getting the survs out; if they don't want to wait it out they can always slap them out the gate. The slugged survivor has zero agency.10 -
Basekit unbreakable was the only slugging fix that was ever implemented and complained about. So they were for a fact talking about that. Basekit unbreakable was 45 seconds too which was too strong.
I agree speeding up bleed out should have been a thing forever ago. Gears Of War did that back in 2006 because they thought 10 seconds was too long and it also speed up your crawling. I’m not sure how you would rework hatch though.1 -
they need to copy that system from VHS where your soul became a roaming ghost collecting whatever to come back.
Oh yeah, I kinda remember seeing those. They were nifty. I think they even had skins.
I would support having a cute little soul that flies around collecting orbs that I then use in an in-game store to purchase skins for my little soul. ("What else does the soul do?" Nothing, it looks cute, that's what it does.)
maybe not with adding basekit unbreakable to it, but just a fun minigame to play while on the floor.
A mini-game of some sort that doesn't interfere with normal gameplay but provides a bit of distraction would be preferred to watching polygonal grass not grow.
Pretty sure I or someone else brought up slugged mini-games in the past, but like most things said on these forums it got lost in the noise.
some kind of side game
Oh, absolutely.
maybe even access to spending bloodpoints on the web
I wouldn't be opposed to that, except for the fact this is BHVR. I get a lot of Bloodweb errors. I worry accessing the Bloodweb mid-match would somehow cause the game to burst into flames.
I would even say a way of remotely working on a Gen at much slower speeds after a certain duration of being left slugged but I can only imagine the pitchforks that would come out so yeah, maybe feeding one bit digital pets will cause less outrage lol
I try to avoid suggestions that would mess with balance too much. Being slugged is boring. It's not fun gameplay to be on the ground not doing anything and not earning anything. Let survivors do something, let them earn something. What they earn doesn't have to be Bloodpoints, it could be some inconsequential unlockable(s).
I think raising and collecting adorable 1 bit killers would be amusing. A lot of people are playing Cookie Clicker or watching YouTube videos while slugged, anyway; DbD should give us something in-game so we stay, you know, in the game.
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Thats exactly what everyone tells people that get blinded when looking at a wall with flashbang and what killers got told at that time.
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You don't play the game enough, with the nerfs to 2nd chance meta slugging has became more and more achievable as the years since 6.1.0 have went by, why? Because no one uses these perks and they were the backbone of DBD survivor for as long as I can remember.
Casual players arent running DH, Unbreakable, Decisive, adren anymore, not that they arent less effective in these scenarios. but they conditioned killers as a whole to switch targets. it's more the state of the way the game is played by the larger audience as opposed to your personal experience as killer.
I'll always stand by second chance meta was a necessary evil for the casual side of this game and made S tier killers a more arguable concept they were healthy for the game, now IMO not so much with the new higher kill rates.2 -
Casual players arent running DH, Unbreakable, Decisive, adren anymore
But I still see them all the time? It's rare to see a game without at least one of these perks. DH, DS, OTR, Adren…
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There is a stark difference between:
A scenario in which regardless of how the Killer opened any of the two Lockers, the other Locker Survivor could immediately jump out and blind the Killer, both having time to jump back in, and repeat this process until one ran out of Flashlight charge
And:
A scenario where the Killer is unwilling to engage with chase against the Flashbang survivor, nor try to fake out for a hit, nor just burning through the Flashbang.
That being said I wouldn’t cry if the Flashbang needed to be further in front of the Killer in order to blind them instead of dropping it from behind them.
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How does one "burn through" a flashbang?
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Kinda like a firecracker: fuse ignites the payload and it’s gone.
And on a more serious note: they are finite in most use-cases.
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They just nerfed an anti-slugging perk. What do you think they will do about it? Right, nothing as always.
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We're Gonna Live Forever is still very strong and still a significant buff over its original version.
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Reverting part of a buff is not exactly a nerf.
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what second chance perks were nerfed that previously prevented slugging? WGLF that simply got half of its buff reverted? Laughable.
Second chance meta hasn't gone anywhere, it simply changed it's face.
It's a joke to act like slugging got stronger because people made arbitrary choice to simply switch to other perks instead of anti slug perks (that haven't got worse and, in fact, had a bunch of newer more powerful additions - Plot twist in particular for example).
Nothing has changed to make slugging better strategy. It's just something I like to call a "you" issue. Subjective self inflicted problem which boils down to the way this game is designed - if you want to win, you play in boring way, if you want to have fun, be ready to get stomped anytime your build doesn't have an answer to your opponent's strategy.
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that would imply being capable of remembering more than one iteration of a thing.
watch these (not these in particular, they are survivor biased, same kind of folks with killer bias) people cry how dracula was made unplayable when they roll back one of his buffs or merely halve it.
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What else is it? Sigh.
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Its not only the basekit mori, but especially the +10s timer on every hook. This alon defanged hooking so much and made slugging often the better alternative. Just like nerfing the safety net for the survivors back in the days when DH had a 75% pickrate, and making them fear for ther lives again breed the super efficency into the survivors, and we felt it via "gens fly" and "you down the first survivor and three gens pop".
In a complex game like DBD you can't change big things like this in isolation, it will always have unforseen consequences and sideeffects. Many applaud the +10s hook timer as "yeah, thats just fair", but fail to see that this has so much more impact on the game, because its on every survivors hook state. This gives them so much free time on hooks that the killer often can't effort to pick up, walk to a hook and walk back to get into the action.
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Instead of arguing for or against slugging, and why its done, why don't we make hooking great again? And spreading hooks great for the first time?
There is another thread about this and its actually a pretty good concept: device some system that makes spreading hooks and keeping all survivors alive MORE beneficial then tunneling and camping someone out early. This would still be an oppressive situation, with mounting debuffs or regressions or whatever, BUT with everyone being still in the trial it would probably still be much more fun then dying early, and even with debuffs or whatever a team could still fight the killer.
The fact that DBD has no kind of comeback mechanic or anything is another kicker, you either snowball early and win big, or lose big, the tight games on the razors edge are so rare, that we should worry about how we can make the basic game the best it can be.
Besides that, a cute lil minigame would be fun :)
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A slightly reverted buff is still ultimately a buff. Or was WGLF stronger when you had to earn the Endurance with unhooks and protection hits?
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why don't we make hooking great again? And spreading hooks great for the first time?
device some system that makes spreading hooks and keeping all survivors alive MORE beneficial then tunneling and camping someone out early
Almost every time this conversation gets going someone comes in crying "But killers already get rewarded for hooking" or "Killers have perks for [insert effect]" or "Just punish killers for trying to win." Because I and others have tried to have discussions along these lines before and it never gets anywhere.
It's an elimination game, the most efficient way to eliminate survivors is the way to win. Killers need a reason (not via perks) to spread out hooks. Not BP, because killers who tunnel don't do it for BP, they do it to win. So there needs to be a gameplay-related reason for those killers to spread out hooks, something that helps them win. Like you said, that would basically mean a de-buff. Apply the biggest de-buff to the survivor on their first hook, then a smaller de-buff on the second hook to make going after the same survivor less than optimal.
The big problem with that suggestion (besides community pushback) is devising a de-buff that is better than straight up elimination but doesn't destroy the balance of the game. To somehow make hooking two different survivors better than hooking the same one three times in a row. It'd take a lot of work to not break the game. I'm not sure it's even possible. But if everyone wants killers to hook survivors, then killer players need a reason to hook survivors.
Other things would have to be changed to balance this, obviously; the devs couldn't just add a de-buff and call it a day, lots of tweaks and alterations would be necessary. But there need to be gameplay benefits for killers to hook survivors and to spread out hooks.
On a related note in terms of encouraging hooking over slugging, Boil Over needs to be completely changed. It's hell on some console killers and I'm really tired of it. Anyone who doesn't want to bleed out should not equip it. And if you do equip it and you do bleed out, remember the killer was probably on console, so they don't see a single thing you type in chat. Thank you and have a very pleasant day, Boil Over users.
Besides that, a cute lil minigame would be fun :)
Hell, yeah! :)
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I’d scrap bleed outs.. if a survivor crawls away and you can’t find them, time runs out you lose the game.. survivors get rewarded for not being found..
No one would want that, killers won’t want their time wasted looking for a needle in a haystack, survivors don’t want to go and hide in a corner somewhere waiting for the game to end.
so even though it’s in the game, no one would want to have it happen.I do it now occasionally when I’ve been slugged or tunneled with every aura perk going.. I’ll get a message at the end asking why I didn’t just let them kill me..
the game has forgotten the role of survivor is to try and survive.. it’s not a death simulator..
had the sweatiest xenimorph today who just camped every hook.. made no effort to do anything but protect the one survivor on a hook.. it’s dull.. boring.. pointless.. can’t be fun for killers too..
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People complained because "base kit second chance" isn't the answer. At the end of the day, slugged or not, it's your own fault for putting yourself in that position. You're there because YOU screwed up.
A more FAIR solution that doesn't just reward you for messing up is a faster bleed out or give up mechanic after X time being slugged.
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The role of killer is to kill, not to be a babysitter simulator. It's literally survive or die.
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yes it is to kill, the game is vastly majorly tailored to that. Killers have powers, survivors don’t, killers essentially have 6 perks, survivors don’t, maps are smaller, loops removed, killers have speed boost, they have sub human reach, teleport, undetectable… their perks are 6/8/10 seconds survivors are 0.5/1/2 seconds..
the game is entirely made to ensure you get your kill. So much so it isn’t a game. It’s a forgone conclusion. If you aren’t getting 4k as a killer then you’re making a huge mess of it.
If your aim is to kill, leaving 4 people on the floor waiting for bleed out isn’t getting the kill really is it..8 -
OMG mate, this is so biased and shortsighted and blind to half the problems the game has, that I don't know where to start. Its okay to have a favored side, I have that too, but to purposefully look the other way isn't solving anything, either, we had that pre 6.1 when killer was at its worst and they had to work through multiple layers of survivor protection each and every game, making survivors so unbelievable save that they basically danced on the killers nose from second 1 in the trial.
The MMR might be much maligned, but its in so far real, that it isn't handing baby or even mid survivors to good killers constantly, far from it. Most of the time killers have to sweat REALLY hard, just to break even, and if they are thrown a group of baby survivors, its often not so easy to shift gears. But not getting a 4K isn't messing up, its a common occurence. If you wan't to witness what kind of survivors I face on a regular basis, I can arrange a stream if you want.
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I must be special or something, because all the crap people gripe about on these forms (slug/tunnel/camp) rarely happen. Just because you were chased twice in a row because you instantly got on a gen after being unhooked doesn't mean you were tunneled, just because the killer chases your teammate around the hook because they won't leave doesn't mean you are being camped, and just because the killer doesn't instantly pick you up regardless of what is happening around you doesn't mean you are being slugged constantly. How about you just gitgud, the killer didn't use "cheap tactics" or "op perks" you just suck at the game. I mean ffs people are now crying about aura reading perks, good god it's like a frikkin south park episode every time I log into these forums.
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Slugging in general does not need a "fix"
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Fine-tuning. These changes occured within three weeks. This is not 6.1.0 which changed perks that hadn't gotten touched in years. In a vaccum without any considerations you are correct, this is a nerf, but seriously? The perk received two buffs and kept the stronger one.
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I think people are complaining about tunneling when they get chased to the exclusion of anyone else and get the first three hooks. I've absolutely had killers chase me, put me on hook, run straight back to the unhook, chase again, put me back on hook, run back to the unhook and chase again. It's not even kind of fun to be the target.
A few days ago in solo queue, my team helped me escape it on two hooks, and then I played carefully the rest of the match. We got all four out since the killer lost gen pressure chasing me and didn't get their 1v3. It was fun giving a tunneler a 0k.
But I doubt most people here are taking the time to come to the BHVR forums, sign up, and then complain because they got chased twice in a row once or their teammate looped around their hook. I'd suspect they're not having fun in the game for some reason if they're doing that.
And as far as tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k, those are regular occurrences. I literally just finished a match where someone slugged the third, found and chased me, then went back and stood over the slug to get their mori.
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Fine-tuning would be the umbrella term for buffs and/or nerfs. Dont even try to start some irritations on terminology. Thats just distraction from i asked for.
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So from which point of status do we look then? Just random what you need it to be?
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I don’t get a 4k as killer maybe one in every 20 games… I escape as a survivor maybe 1 in every 20 games… playing killer is easy, it’s not actually playing.
Nothing about dbd is a game at the moment. Killer easy 4k, survivor guaranteed death.
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Ah yes. The survivors are designed to 5 gen chase argument.
I don’t think that’s the intended gameplay loop.
It’s a slasher game. Survivors are expected to go down now and then.
Even being killed as part of set expectations.
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