The reason the kill rate is so high is because there are bad survivors.
Listen, when you have one side of the game with more people, odds are you're going to have more people who DC, kill themselves on hook and/or bodyblock and willingly throw the game. This happens at any skill level because like I said, most survivors get salty that they got slammed and decide to DC or kill themselves on hook.
And then you have the trolls. The people who don't do gens, don't heal, don't unhook teammates and of course, bodyblock and "troll" their teammates.
What I'm saying is, when you have more people on one side of a match. That side will more than likely have terrible people on it.
I've played countless survivor/killer games and have seen so many instances of survivors DC'ing after one down or just blatantly not helping their teammates and people seem to wonder why the win rate for survivors is so low. It's because of you guys.
And don't even get me started on the survivors who say, "When i see [killer], I DC" Like cmon guys, give me a break.
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Say it with me:
Matches. With. A. Disconnect. Aren't. Included. In. Kill. Rates.
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I couldn't agree more.
All the killers with secondary objetive have a very high killrate because many players don't know what they have to do against them and neigther have interest in learning. And it's not like any of them are particularly strong either… Sadako was a steamroller when all you had to do was hold on a tape to negate her power.
The game needs tutorials that teach you about all the killers powers and the basic concepts of looping. It's crazy how many people with thousands of hours of gametime do nothing but run around the map totally lost.
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I thought it was because it has good killers
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I wish this was common knowledge. If you have a game based on a 1v4 format, having 1-3 teammates who are dead weight basically cements your loss. It's not your fault, but you don't deserve to win or get buffs just because your teammates are bad (hatch says hi!). Killers are players too, and they're winning mostly through survivors not playing well, and making mistakes/losing reads back to back. So cut them some slack instead of blaming their supposed excess strength on your loss.
In terms of toxicity, one thing I'd add is that it's a mob mentality. Mob justice, when you see them all tbag a killer who played fair, especially when they themselves ask that killers play nice for them. Nobody's man enough, usually, to tell their teammates not to act that way. I do. Like, "Why'd you have to act that way?" And they usually come back with a lamebrain excuse, "Well, he did this" and "You can't tell me how to play." Nobody cares. You're being a sore loser. Even the killers who complain to the survivors about the match result, at least they're talking about the game state, not lobbing a personal attack or saying, "You weren't playing nice for me. You're supposed to do that." Because believe me, these same toxic survivors are the first ones to be like that when they actually lose. It's having double standards, or just not being self aware. And that applies to gameplay as well.
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While I agree that a lot of it comes down to survivors simply playing poorly and many of them refuse to get better, I think there’s also a lot to be said for the fact that there’s dozens of killers, each with unique mechanics. If you see a killer once every thirty matches (or even less for a lot of killers), how are you expected to learn their mechanics and how to play against them?
Most DBD players are not obsessive perverts like the rest of us (complimentary 😝), they’re not going to read forums or reddit or watch videos to find out how to play against Singularity or the multiple iterations of Skull Merchant or Freddy or whatever. And honestly, they shouldn’t have to. This game absolutely needs better guidance and tutorialization, in-game and out.
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that still screws with statistics because ppl give up even those matches they could've played out, won and thus positively contributed to statistics.
i can name a bunch of games i had just recently that survivors didnt even attempt to play out despite having decent odds for that merely because something happened that destroyed the fragile morale of one of the survivors. got unlucky hit, got outplayed, got found first with deli, they didnt like the killer, didnt like the perk, etc.
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What is your point, OP?
Are you arguing that the proper way to look at statistics and balance for this game is purely through the lens of high level players? Given how many "bad" players there are in this game, do you honestly think that that would have a good impact on the community of the game overall?
VHS tried balancing around the top, and it died because of it.
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Say it with me:
Matches. With. First. Downed. Survivor. Killing. Themselves. On. Hook. Are. Included. In. Kill. Rates.
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So are matches wherein the killer lets any number of survivors escape.
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Indeed. So all this should give us an accurate representation of who actually escapes and who doesn't, even though a couple of outliers exist here and there.
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I'm going to make the argument that it is more difficult to be a good survivor compared to being a good killer. I will admit that I'm not a good survivor. It doesn't matter how much I practice or how many videos I watch of good survivors. I can't keep my eye on the killer without running into stuff. Even when I try to emulate what I see players do on YouTube, I can never get very many laps around a pallet loop without getting hit. I'll watch YouTubers get 4-5 laps around something and when I'm in game against the same killer on the same loop, I'll be lucky to get one lap around. I'm hugging the corner as well as I can. I'm using check spots as well as I can. I focus objectives and be strategic as well as I can. But I still die a lot when playing survivor.
On the other hand, I generally do quite well playing as killer. I don't play with head phones and my audio is usually fairly quiet when I play so I can't track survivors by sound hardly at all. I'm not all that great at mind games. I generally try to play fair and not tunnel or camp. And yet I still do much better on killer compared to survivor. I get vastly more bloodpoints for my time spent even when survivors have the 100% bonus. It's quite rare that I have horrible games where all 4 survivors escape. The vast majority of games I still get 2-4 kills. Same player but vastly different results in different roles.
So how is it that I do so much better as a killer? I think it is because playing as a survivor is much more unforgiving. One little mistake and you are hooked. Even with no mistakes, you might not last long in chase depending on circumstances. And then when you are hooked, there are so many things out of your control. If the killer proxy camps and immediately returns to hook, all they have to do is chase you for 10 seconds and get the easy down. Also, plenty of survivors aren't even playing with the hope of escaping. Plenty of players are like me where they only play survivor to get the tome challenges done. Thankfully most tome challenges don't require actually surviving. So you have a lot of sandbagging team mates. Even if you as an individual do everything right, there is no guarantee of escape. So I don't think it's entirely fair to make the statement that survivors can't escape because they are bad at the game.
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I mean yeah even the "average" of dbd survivors isn't what you would expect average to be.
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not even high level players . So long as you have a full team of players are the goal for all of them is to escape then your chances of winning are very high . The thing most matches will have at least on survivor who is goofing of doing tomes and not caring about winning . That is all it takes to turn a win into a loss . Hence why having is a 4man is much stronger then even a 3man swf . Solos too often play for themselves instead of the team .
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Lately, particularly during events, I've been playing chill killer matches with the intention of either; letting everyone go, or just killing one survivor (usually the cockiest or the one who tries their luck hanging around the exit gate).
I don't 'farm', I still try or give the impression I'm trying, but I will track hookstates, and leave room for rescues, so that I can try to get my 8 hooks before anyone's dead. Sometimes this requires trying my best anyway, others I have to hold back so I don't dominate too much.
I'd say about 50% of the time this doesn't work out because survivors either give up on hook or fail to rescue their team mates.
I watch survivors die on their first or second hook from halfway across the map. And then there could be a game where I think everyone's engaging and I have some more fun by downing but not hooking those on death hook, giving room to rescue the slugs, but they bleed out anyway.
Even when I am trying to let you win, you still lose.
So yes, most of the time survivors lose because of their own actions, whether it's selfishness, stupidity or cowardice.
The even sadder thing is that this is making 'playing chill killer' less and less appealing. If my efforts to facilitate a fun and fair game aren't appreciated and end in survivors giving up anyway, what's the point? I find myself playing killer less and less because it's not fun when everyone gives up. So that's one less chill killer for you to face and it's more likely you'll get a tunneler instead.
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I'm a mid survivor, my chases last maybe 1min at best ? Maybe 2 if i get lucky
But as a killer, i stg 80% of my matches are against god-like surv
But overall, i try to be chill in both roles, if I die that's ok, even 5 times in a row and if i got a 4 men escape as a killer, it's ok too
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Shouldn't the game also be accessible to inexperienced survivors? A survivor who constantly loses will quickly turn away from the game regardless of the game balance.
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The implication of your comment is that matches where survivors die on first hook artificially inflate kill rates. My response is that matches where killers meme and let everyone escape artificially deflate kill rates. If you’re suggesting there’s a balanced middle ground then the killer winrates we have would be inaccurate. Since we know for sure the devs can parse out matches where a survivor dies on first hook (they showed us this with SM) we can’t really say the killer winrate they provide is accurate or inaccurate based on survivors dying on first hook. They’d need to clarify. I also think it’s unlikely they toss or filter matches where killers let survivors go. I do it all the time and I know that’s affecting killer winrates.
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This is why kill rates should be taken with a grain of salt. There's too many variables that determine the outcome of a match. The map, the rng of tiles and gens, perks both sides are using, the skill level of the players, people giving up on first hook etc.
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How do they know which matches to not include for hook suicides?
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United the Survivors stand, divided they fall.
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How would tutorials help with the issue you stated though? There's a ton of killers with unique powers and addons/ perks. How is a tutorial suppose to help you memorize all that?
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With the new mori system this doesn't happen often. You are encouraged to kill all of them.
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This thread is hilarious. The average survivor is average. If you do an experiment with a consistent control factor hundreds of thousands of times and come up with an answer that doesn't align with your hypothesis, you'd probably re-evaluate your hypothesis. Not the DbD community though. No, we stick to our expectations, 8 years of results notwithstanding.
If you think the average survivor is bad, you probably have an unrealistic expectation of what average performance looks like. The game is 8 years old. The average is the average. It's not what you assume the average should be.
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But if the word average isn't used in a way that completely ignores every established definition of the word then that would mean that when the developers said they wanted the game to have Killers win more than they lose their changes to game mechanics actually had an effect! That would mean it's not survivors; it's that the developers made the game Killer sided after specifically stating that was their intent and changing code and game mechanics does actually change the game!
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I mean yeah, Survivors don't always play well as a team. Then again, this is a "team" game with a grand total of two emotes with which you can communicate to your teammates with, so is it any surprise we often don't make the right play? How am I to know that the Jake doing nothing on the hud is going for the save or if he really is doing nothing? And thanks to the Distortion changes and Killer aura perk buffs, if you can't loop, well good news!, because now you can't hide either.
So if Survivors are really so bad, why have BHVR spent the last year buffing nearly every Killer in the game?
Let's face it, whether we play Survivor or Killer, most of us suck at this game.
Post edited by tjt85 on1 -
I expected more of a discussion in the OP. Instead we got a one-note rant about gamers throwing.
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For that aspect, I think a lot more in-game guidance is needed. I know having minimal HUD/on-screen elements is part of the visual design, but IMO that’s doing a disservice to a lot of players.
What I’m imagining is this, for example: if you get infected by singularity’s pods, the game should state right on the screen “use an EMP [with a pointer to the nearest EMP box] to remove the pod!” If there’s a camera in range, it should get a “disable this with an EMP” note. When it re-enables, put “camera re-enabled” on the screen. If he teleports to you, it should say something like “Killer teleported to you because of the pod on your back! Remove it with an EMP!” Once a survivor has this stuff down, they could have an option to turn it off, maybe on a per-killer basis.Same with various sound cues. If a twins player unbinds Victor, it should say something like “Victor has been released!” That way people can actually learn what the sound cues mean.
I’m sure there are game UX folks who could make that better, but that’s the kind of thing I’m thinking about: on-screen, clear messages and HUD elements about the game mechanics.
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Having arrows point out everything kinda screws with gameplay. We really shouldn't be pointing out ever camera placement anymore than the killer get an arrow saying "ATTACK the survivor that is hiding behind THIS bush" or "Remember, you can pull survivors out of lockers".
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I see your point, but I think some guidance would be appropriate.
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yea why bother learning anything in game when you can just cry on the forums about anything challenging and bhvr will come running
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for sure, but you cant mess with gameplay in the name of "guidance". If I found a nice angle to stalk from as Ghostface, I wouldn't want a glowing neon arrow with a message saying "Break LOS from this guy right here". I feel like this is why they have the system they currently do with the loading screen messages. Those provide useful information against that killer for the first few times you face it without interfering with the match itself.
The problem is... there's so many killers that's it can be hard to remember them all unless you're like me and try playing as them all. Killer updates make this situation worse.
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It’s crazy how this game is not designed in the slightest for new players (mostly on survivor side). You can jump into a game like Call of Duty having never played before and have time to figure it out. DBD? Good luck, hope you have a friend to carry you.
I legit feel sorry for new players.
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dbd has noob mmr for like a dozen hours assuming your poor performance.
after that yeah, you're thrown right into the same pit as everyone, including 1-10k hours players that played their killer ten times more than such person even knew about the game.
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There might be too many killers to effectively cover in training/content. However more could be done to teach new survivors the basics, so that when they encounter a new killer they have something to fall back on.
Currently you get one go through a few training exercises, a couple of bot matches, and then you're thrown to the wolves. That's nowhere near enough to actually learn how to play the game.
There should be a modest single player campaign. A gauntlet of about 15 bot matches that pit you against the first 5 killers (which have bot programing already thanks to 2v8) on the five core realms, with increasing difficulty owing to the killer gaining more perks, taken from the pool of their own perks plus the generic ones. E.g. match 1 is Trapper on Shelter Woods with Agitation and Brutal Strength, match 2 is Trapper on Suffocation Pit with Agi, Brutal and Unnerving, match 3 is Trapper on Coal Tower with Agi, Brutal, Unerving and NOED. Match 4 is against Wraith... and so on. And you only move on to the next one after you've escaped.
This would expose you to perks like Tinkerer, Nurses Calling, Huntress Lulaby and NOED. All of which could be safely highlighted without negatively affecting their opponent. It would teach survivors how to deal with a range of different killer powers, traps (trapper), stealth (wraith/tinkerer), ranged (billy/huntress), anti-loop (nurse), exposed (NOED) and Hexes in general. That's enough to get the fundamentals.
Make it repeatable. Give it a modest but fixed bloodpoint reward (from 5K up to 15K per match depending on the "difficulty"), with a one time 250K reward for completing all 15 for the first time to set them up with some perks.
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It's definitely a reason, but not "the" reason. It's too simplistic to bear weight on that alone.
However, it is probably the biggest reason, because of how many Survivors still kill themselves on hooks, or deliberately troll and so on.
I still would rather play with 3 other Survivors who are just starting out, yet willing to play to the end, than 3 better players who just give up when they hear the TR music. Obviously, this is not representative of the player base as it's just my experience, but it is more common to find higher Prestiges quit in my matches than lower. I don't know why that is, but maybe game-weariness.
The best games are when everyone fights on, and in those trials I have escaped much more than not. When someone just trolls or gives up, this unsurprisingly results in more deaths than escapes. It messes the MMR up, amongst other things (both devs and the more childish of the playerbase are responsible for the MMR system being a bit screwed).
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would be nice if new players were locked from matchmaking (unless they accept SWF invite) for a while and could only play bot matches (where you could still progress and earn bloodpoints/pips) until a certain milestone. just so to confirm they arent completely clueless and get at least a few dozen hours of experience before thrown into the real games.
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The stats they gave on this is that they can track survivors who die on first hook. Which, while it may include survivors who are simply not rescued or heavily camped, those situations are pretty rare. So that's most often going to be someone taking attempts and missing skill checks.
Might be a slightly inflated number, but since the most egregious example of this is probably skull merchant, and the "death on first hook" for her specifically was about 3%, we aren't taking about numbers that are going to drastically change the kill rates here.
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I don't agree with that. The single-player/training should remain optional, for cases where experienced players are on a new account, or when friends start playing the game and want to jump straight into playing SWF, as SWF can be a decent learning tool in itself and this only hinders their own friends.
Just have it telegraphed well enough with a decent reward so entirely new players are still funnelled into it.
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100%
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maybe, but I still believe that at least first session should not involve playing against real players.
Dota2, for example, has matchmaking against bots. You play with real players (usually noobs like you) however your opponents are replaced with bots which ensures more fair and controlled environment to grasp the basics of the game.
Ideally, new players, especially survivors, should not get into the pvp part game until they at least overcome their basic fear of the game or anxiety induced by being chased.
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That might be a thing in the future, but killer bots are still a work in progress. I remember reading just recently that there was an issue that killer bots didn't react any differently if blinded. They'd still go directly to you. The bots in this game having wallhacks kinda makes things tough. Maybe one day though something like you said could happen without the Nurse bot always knowing EXACTLY where you are.
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That example you gave is why I have 0 faith in its validity. There's no way in he'll SM, the most hated killer that so many people openly admit to killing themselves against... only had 3%.
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well yeah? I wouldn’t exactly call recent killer designs new player friendly per say someone who bought the game like a month ago dies instantly to vecna and Dracula for sure
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Survivors were always bad as most people are casual survivor players, this is nothing new at all.
What has happened over the years is maps and the admittedly broken survivor second chance perks have been nerfed hard (most needed to be) so the game is far more killer sided than ever before, even if killers have seen some more broken perks nerfed too.
Not advocating DCing but the influx of really unfun killers (Knight, Chucky, SM, Trickster, Twins etc) has not helped the situation as no matter what you implement, you cant force players to stay in matches and many of the newer unfun killers seem to almost guarantee someone will go next.
Solo queue is pretty rough these days, I would say I die 90% of matches now
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I think that, at it's core, there are two issues going on with Dead By Daylight on the survivor side. One is absolutely everything that you said. The other issue is players who just want to have a casual game and are just not looking to sweat. Some killers, especially with strong builds in a higher MMR, you HAVE to have a competitive counter. You can't just sit on a gen and hope for the best. And I think sometimes survivors rise up through the MMR playing more inexperienced killers, and they are not really prepared to go up against a killer running super strong builds who they can't really hide from.
That's why I think the devs just need to let people have custom matches where they can play against bots only and still get bp and do challenges. Just so some of the more casual players have their own place to play without all the throwing matches stuff going on.
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Which means actual killrates are like 70-80% cuz i swear someone D/Cs in 1/4 of my games
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Survivors have every tool available to them to be literally unbeatable. The only reason survivors fail is due to mistakes. That's generally what the game is built around. Perfectly played survivors are unbeatable. Perfectly played killers can still lose. The game comes down to how much the killer can capitalize on survivor mistakes. If a survivor makes a mistake, how much can the killer take advantage of that mistake. That's why the game is killer favored at lower MMR - where survivors are less experienced. The higher you go into the MMR, it starts to slide into the survivors favor. We're flawed in which we'll never play 100% perfectly, so reaching that completely unbeatable gameplay isn't very likely for any human, but the possibility is there. Some survivors are just incredibly good at not making mistakes. That's where you're seeing those 200+ win streaks. In the end, when we're dealing with a situation where we feel killers are OP - it's quite literally a skill issue in this situation. Less mistakes, and killers are easier to handle. Make little to no mistakes, and the killers aren't even a threat. Under certain circumstances, you can even intentionally go down and still win - just depends how well you built up to the moment (such as DS or deliverance at an exit gate) - it literally doesn't matter what the killer can do, you're guaranteed to win. There's a lot of those scenarios that the most experienced survivors play around.
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What this kind of tracking can't account for is people unhooking those trying to off themselves. So, agreed, this number can't be accurate.
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Say it again for the people in the back!
No seriously bhvr needs to stop nerfing to benefit bad players
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Agree, I see far more GhostFace and Myers than I do Freddy, Hag and Single Larry combined. I can remember how to counter GhostFace and Myers (and every other common killer), because I face them a lot.
But Freddy, Hag and Larry? Maybe once in a blue moon when there is a sudden resurgence in their popularity for about a week, so I have to learn their counterply on the fly, only for them to vanish again. To reappear again a few months later when I've completely forgotten how to deal with their shenanigans, and the whole song and dancd starts over again.
Like, there is a first time for everything, which is why the PTB exists, but there needs to be some update to the tooltips or even tutorial bots where you can face against each killer in a 1v3 or something just to learn their counterplay. Idk, just something to help casual and new players out and remember how to counter killers at their base strength.
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