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Squads needs limits
Look im not against swf or something like that. I do play survivor with my friends too.
But everything needs it's limits.
Things like this happen on a daily basis and it's getting ridicilous.
I managed to get midwich, which I picked when I saw them having matching names in the lobby (zensored here) and I am pretty decent as dredge but I think without the map that would've been a 1k tops.
Genrush gremlins are not the only problem as there are still ton's of bully squads in the game.
So if we keep punishing killers for playing 'toxic/bad' (tunneling/camping) we at least need to consider limits for swf builds. I mean is it too much to ask to limit it to one offering and one unique item per survivor per squad?
I know implementing this would be a nightmare as we cannot make soloq any worse as it already is. But with gens being finished in 20 seconds theres little you can do and it adds up to a lot of frustration. So naturally you don't play other killers that often anymore because every time you try you get stomped.
So to bring it back to the topic, fair and healthy limits for both sides without trashing soloq would be nice.
Comments
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fair and healthy limits for both sides without trashing soloq would be nice.
This would be nice, but its just not possible in a game like this, or with a company like BHVR. BHVR needs to pick what they want this game to be. Because as it stands, its a party game wrapped in a comp pvp bow. They need to pick a direction and run with it. Go comp and balance around that, or balance around it being a 'fun' game.
Im not sure how to handle this honestly.
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no
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It can be annoying if you aren't prepared for it, but this is the exact thing SBMM is intended to mitigate. That squad will face killers with a similar win rate if they're running those builds consistently.
DbD is an arms race when people want to win. Look at it from their perspective too. They faced a Dredge with its best map offering running NOED. That reinforced their belief in their builds just as much as their builds made you thankful for NOED.
I've certainly complained about loadout stacking before. It's problematic on a certain level. But I imagine they have to look at it from a numbers perspective relative to the dev resources that would be expended. At what point does loadout stacking really start to affect win rates? Is that worth dev resources to address?
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I kind of get what you want to say but as long as maps aren't balanced and 4 toolboxes with brand new parts on top of 4 gen builds do exist it actually makes quite a big difference.
The amount of syringes and stiptics is also skyrocketing.
So you can either say sbmm is very poorly implemented or the system is not well designed for comp. Both statements would be true as in comp they make up rules because the default balancing is not doing the trick.
Is dbd for fun or for comp? Because lately it feels like people are forgetting about fun and are sweating like in a sauna. This goes for both sides obviously6 -
I think the balance gets skewed more when one side is out-sweating the other. But you're probably going to end up with a 2k most of the time when all players are running their best stuff (assuming relatively equal skill).
Regarding comp: many of those restrictions are in place for the viewing experience as much as balance. For example, here's DbD League's list of banned killer perks
A common misconception is that survivors are the only limited role in a competitive setting.
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BHVR just needs to make all toolboxes have 16 or 18 charges, which would instantly fix this issue. Toolbox gen rushing is only an issue because 32 charge toolboxes get too much value when combined with other generator stuff like Hyperfocus and Streetwise.
…And if that's not enough then BNPs should be nerfed again.
But we don't need to nerf SWFs in this scenario, because the problem isn't that they are a SWF. The problem revolves around the 32 charge toolboxes and BNPs.
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Even if they haven’t these builds you would still lose, you got 0 anti gens perks
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Did you look at the match result?
Survivors brought a full gen rush setup and the killer has zero slowdown and the match was a draw.
There's clearly plenty that could be done already to tip this particular example into a killer win, but the option OP went with was asking for nerfs instead.
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For me the dredge is the ultimate chase killer. So my entire build is focussing on fast chases, finding the next survivor, keeping them injured, pressuring nightfall.
It's just the way I play. I don't want to sound arrogant but I got pretty good with dredge and do win most of my matches before noed even get's revealed. What you see here is actually my go to build I won the most matches with.
The core issue for me in matches like this is the stacking of everything in a swf squad. I don't need free wins, I just don't want to feel like the game is rigged form the start. Besides that, I don't think gen slowdown would've done much in this scenario either.
Midwich dredge always is a true nightmare and I don't think I ever escaped that myself. So them getting 2 people out is a statement.1 -
I agree. I'm a survivor main but I see these a lot, even as killer. Also don't forget when one goes down they all throw. It's great for a killer but sucks as the survivor.
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Thing is you went in with a mid build VS a best type build and still game out as a draw.
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brother you got a ######### 2k and your build might as well of been just a strong considering Dredge on Midwich is an entire different beast, and you have Batteries Included + Noed which is an insane combo on this map.
There is absolutely nothing wrong here.
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I don't even know why BNP are still a thing. As survivor I never run them because they seem unfair af to me, even after the nerfs. They should be reworked into a completely different thing imo. I would love it if they just awarded you a quadrillion bloodpoints for sitting on gens. But I understand that not everyone is a fan of bloodpoint rewards, so maybe they could be changed in some other way.
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Aura perks are banned because most orgs view game sense and positioning as a skill. It's up to the survivors to position well and it's up to killers to mentally track players.
Gen blocking perks and Monstrous Shrine are banned to discourage camping, or at least make it more tactical. Camping isn't banned at all, but the killer needs to know when to do it. Deadlock took the game sense portion out of camping. And nobody really wants to tune it to watch a killer with Deadlock+NOED facecamp for a 3k.
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My guess on Thrill would be situations where someone is hooked near a totem or totem defense playstyles.
They don't like "surprise" perks that affect chases. It's seen as being un-skillful. It's why Bam+Superior Anatomy are banned in combination. Coup as well. They want chase interaction to be as much skill vs skill as it can be.
Then you get into individual killer balancing on top of general balancing
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Survivors are told when Undying is active. That's the distinction vs something like BBQ or Awakened Awareness
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They’re unlikely to do that but if there were major changes made to strong perks yes it would affect what is allowed in comp DBD. Edgar’s point was that killers have a lot of restrictions on what they can run just like survivors. Many people seem to think killers have 0 restrictions and that isn’t true in major comp DBD leagues at all.
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Here is my hot take: limiting SWFs is NOT punishing players to play together with their friends, its NOT punishing soloQ players for playing alone, because the SWFs theoretical powerlevel sets the tone of the game.
Other games to this all the time and its not big deal, in Overwatch you can't just take 5 tanks in your team and drag the game along, there are limiters set up. And such limiters would also help DBD a lot, in order to tone down the powerlevel of SWFs. BTW, make no mistakes, if we reign in SWFs powerlevel by doing so, there should also be a new set of probably general nerfs for killers, as you can't have one without the other.
Right now we have around 60% general kill rates with the power of SWFs in mind, so this number would be wildly surpassed if you don't buff and nerf in moderation on both sides.
One simple fix that I think is overdue is the one, that I have proposed quite so often: limit the perks to one instance per premade SWF, but don't limit soloQ players in any way. This would help imensely to tone down the more outrageous games where a killer feels like they can just not win: 4 DH to work through, 4 UB, 4 Head On, a perk that is harmless enough, but in the hands of a coordinated SWF with the right map can be hellish.
In my own regular dua and tripple SWF we all play radically different, yeah, there are a couple of duplicate perks, but nothing we couldn't iron out, and then everyone would have their own niche and playstyle. Maybe Teamwork perks could be an exeption, which could be made great for the first time by taking into account how they can now be taken by all teammates etc.
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Yeah, I didn't want to be the one to first bring it up, but something about seeing a post where someone got a 2k against a ridiculously stacked SWF with a not-top-tier killer and is asking for survivor nerfs just felt weird.
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So what exactly is your problem getting a 2k here?
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That’s because for killers a 2K is a loss, a 3K a draw, and a 4K is a win… or something.
So while those survivors brought the best they could, had coordination and presumably played hard they still only managed to get two out against an off-meta, B-tier killer with a player who didn’t even take the match seriously (could have used meta perks or tunneled and camped and won a 3K I’m sure).
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2k is draw and 3-4k is win.
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Pretty sure Ayo is being sarcastic (thus why they said
(could have used meta perks or tunneled and camped and won a 3K I’m sure).
emphasis mine
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SWF itself should not be nerfed.
SWF's potential should be nerfed.
The majority of SWFs are not an issue, and there shouldn't be a penalty for casually playing with friends. The impact this can have, however, is something that has needed to be addressed for a long time, just like many of the other broken mechanics that have been curbed over the years.
The more we get good faith QoL improvements that help bridge the gap between solo and SWF, we should be getting ones that limit the damage that comms and organization can do.
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I don't know if you guys did not really read my post till the end but to clarify a few things.
This is my strongest setup. Midwich Dredge is one of the most lethal things you can encounter in dbd. The build is my strongest build which complements my way to play Dredge the best. I've played this killer for a long time now and main him (I don't invest many blood points in dredge so maybe it doesn't look that obvious).
I had 3 hook stages when the last gen popped and got the 2k beacause of noed.
Now why is this a problem? Well if I go with the strongest I can and only get a very close called draw with a few hook stages…. Imagine a neutral map. Imagine a survivor sided map.
In a perfect world the ods should be "Strongest surv builds vs strongest killer build" is a draw no matter which map (leaving the 60% killrate aside for a moment). The map however is not part of the killers or survivors build and is therefor not part of that equasion.
This means that IN GENERAL I don't have any chances against these survivors. I know Dredge is very dependant on map rng but this also mean that it is ridicilous op on Midwich. I had to go full force for a close 2k on noed. Believe me it doesn't feel like a draw.
I would've lost big time on any other map and thats why the stacking is a problem. It moves the bar of what is possible to far to the survivor side.
I usually avoid the midwich offering for that exact reason. It tilts the whole game in my favor to a point where survivors barely can do anything.
So when a map is able to tilt the game that hard, it says a lot that stacked survivors not only outweighed that completly but they almost got away with it.
It shows that they were outpowering one of the most broken setups in dbd which means they will win almost every other match.0 -
Why bother with 4 BNP's when one survivor can equip the invocation perk, and BNP every gen on the map after 60 seconds.
Put Invocation on the best looper/mind-gamer, where one other teammate leads the killer away from the basement area for the time being. The other two survivors are equipped with good toolboxes and gen-focused perks, to get maximum value out of them. Then, after 60 seconds, they would have the gens at around 90%, meaning that as soon as the Invocation pops, two gens will be instantly done, and the other two survivors will be on their way to the next two gens.
Then, the player with Invocation takes up the mantle, and gives the third player time to work on a gen. And since the rest of the gens only need 80 charges to complete, the time-save would be incredible.This means that all gens could be done in less than 3 minutes, if everything goes according to the plan.
To OP: What I am going on about here is that you can never fully limit an SWF when it comes to being efficient, since there are always workarounds for them to exploit.1
