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A tiny buff to Wesker to further discourage tunneling?

UndeddJester
UndeddJester Member Posts: 3,371
edited November 5 in Feedback and Suggestions

A Great Change

The last round of changes to reduce his ability to tunnel and score a free hit via hindered if he sucked at chase/using his power was a great change. A Wesker who comes back to hooks should have to actually be good if he wants to tunnel and shouldn't realistically expect a hit to come for free if he waits long enough.

Is there a problem?

After playing Survivor against a number of Weskers now, one side effect of this change is this gives a LOT of time for survivors to heal, to complete gens and largely ignore the infection (it's a whopping 125s to get infected from 1).

Originally after being unhooked the infection timer was 62.5s. After healing this comes down to 45s before coming back to max infection, even worse if you then heal the teammate who unhooked you. As Pig main, I enjoy these macro elements of killers (even as Survivor), and the old Wesker had this feeling that his infection was a strong threat... you kinda couldn't really to afford to ignore it.

Since the above change came into effect, Wesker infection kinda feels toothless and unintimidating... I don't really fear the Uroboros infection, I feel like I can deal with it at my leisure without much concern. This allows time to heal teammates, time to complete gens, etc. without really having to care... which was my main defence against the 30s extra timer on the Pig during her PTB.

Does Wesker need a buff?

Wesker is a good killer, and this is where I know I'll get the pushback. He is still strong, so why buff him?

I agree in the fact that Wesker has all the tools a good killer needs. His main threat is it his map mobility and lethality, but that is tempered by a pretty long cooldown and a larger TR giving his approach away... While his mobility and lethality is pretty good, it's not as strong as a number of similar killers in the same band such as Blight and Hillbilly... Wesker is simply outclassed in this regard by other killers, which asks the question... why play him when similar killers are better?

His Uroboros infection is what evens the playing field here, but with it in its defanged state after he hooks, the need to deal with his infection is hurt significantly... and there isn't really a way he can do anything about that... his infection is an afterthought... so there isn't really a reason to play Wesker over Blight or Hillbilly.

A Tiny Buff - Fester

So in the spirit of pushing unique elements of killers, I'd like to maintain the intent and purpose of the above nerf, but make his infection something survivors have to actively deal with.

After being unhooked the Survivors infection festers (mark it yellow on the survivors HUD). While festering, the rate of infection is doubled while performing conspicuous actions until the infection is removed.

Intended Effects

This would mean you can't just sprint back to hook and get an easy tunnel, and in fact your are better not tunneling, because if this survivor tries to ignore the infection and gen rush you, they actively increase their own infection rate and bring it back to old Wesker threat levels.

It forces anyone who is infected to actively look for first aid sprays to remove it before carrying on with gens, which gives that little bit of slowdown that makes Weskers kit a little more unique and interesting, and gives you a real reason to play him over the raw lethality of his counterparts.

I believe this is a good healthy change for the killer; it helps Wesker out a little bit while also making his infection feel intimidating to survivors, while also discouraging tunneling since Wesker knows the survivor has to deal with his infection or run a greater risk.

He also benefits more from spreading his infection around, and is rewarded for good use of his power.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 8,835

    first we have to talk about some aspects of how infection works.

    the thing to talk about his green add-on called Video Conference device. To my understanding, what this add-on does is reduce amount of time it takes for infection to tick 1 charge. there are 100 charges to his infection.

    the infection ticks at 0.8 rate. that means that for every second that passes, you get 0.8 infection. so if you had 0 infection starting, you would take 125 seconds to become fully infected. Video conference device makes you gain 30% infection rate which 0.8 x 1.3 = 1.04. 100/1.04 = is 96 seconds.

    The next add-on to talk about is Red herb. This add-on increases your initial infection when hitting a survivor with his ability. The initial is 20 charges and add-on boosts its by 6 for 26 charges.

    If a wesker tunnels survivors off-hook by hitting their borrow time, the infection time takes 71 seconds to occur. something that this timer is good for is that it allows wesker to precisely, i mean super precisely tick the amount of time that decisive strike has. So if wesker is good, they can almost perfectly pick up a survivor as soon as decisive strike expires.

    So why is 4% still strong for wesker? Moving slower means that you can sway from right to left less. so if wesker is able to use his ability at correct time, he is guaranteed with good aim to hit his bound on you because it is impossible to sway enough left or right due to hindered ability.

    Knowing this, Cleansing wesker's infection should be done immediately in almost every situation.

    Wesker's design is something like Oni where he's killer that build-up a debuff. When survivor are not infected fully by debuff, he has little to no control over chase because his variables for his chase power at base are too weak but when he does successfully fully infect the survivor, he's in control of the chase.

    the changes simply changed time sink between how long it takes for him to be in control of the chase. if you want to use his hindered debuff, your best to use his iri add-on and green add-on and continuously slug because slugging people doesn't reset infection.

    if you want to use his infection as tunneling tool, you can look at white meter to avoid perks like decisive strike and his grab still punishes you for using anti-tunnel perks like Off the record. He is still effective tunneler. He simply takes more time to get kills which i suppose was Bvhr's goal within these changes. They seem to be fine with encouraging wesker to slug entire team every game but few people play wesker in a manner that makes him strong so i guess he's fine.

  • AMOGUS
    AMOGUS Member Posts: 489

    "Wesker's design is something like Oni where he's killer that build-up a debuff. When survivor are not infected fully by debuff, he has little to no control over chase because his variables for his chase power at base are too weak but when he does successfully fully infect the survivor, he's in control of the chase."

    Hilariously terrible design then. "Just lose gens until you finally get full infection on a Survivor" What is this opinion? Even Oni gets his power back faster AND his techs aren't getting deleted, like Wesker's most likely will be (hug tech is most likely getting deleted permanently in a few months), Wesker is dropping in tiers because of him being mega counterplayable because we're focused on him tunneling.

    Maybe buff his power out of tunneling and not delete his techs if we want him to not tunnel? lmao

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 8,835

    we're focused on him tunneling.

    sounds about right. i find funny they called update minor because those changes were kinda major.

    Maybe buff his power out of tunneling and not delete his techs if we want him to not tunnel? lmao

    if you read their post carefully, there is impression that he is already strong. i think he is incredibly average and only maintained consistent strength through niche tunneling play-style.

  • UndeddJester
    UndeddJester Member Posts: 3,371
    edited November 6

    the thing to talk about his green add-on called Video Conference device. To my understanding, what this add-on does is reduce amount of time it takes for infection to tick 1 charge. there are 100 charges to his infection.

    You worded it a little strangely, but your maths works out... so just for myself, and the sake of clarity, I don't believe Video Conference Device changes tick rate. If it did, that would mean 0.8 charges every 0.7s, which gives a charge rate of 1.14286c/s, which actually is approximately a 42.8% increase.

    This would be a very strange and misleading implementation and given how other areas of the game are implemented, all this add-on does is change charges per second from 0.8 to 1.04c/s, which is exactly what you did in your maths, but that clears up any confusion πŸ˜…

    So why is 4% still strong for wesker? Moving slower means that you can sway from right to left less. so if wesker is able to use his ability at correct time, he is guaranteed with good aim to hit his bound on you because it is impossible to sway enough left or right due to hindered ability.

    Knowing this, Cleansing wesker's infection should be done immediately in almost every situation.

    // ...

    If you want to use his infection as tunneling tool, you can look at white meter to avoid perks like decisive strike and his grab still punishes you for using anti-tunnel perks like Off the record.

    I think everyone understands that being infected is a problem to avoid, the 4% as you rightly state makes it much harder to turn left and right to avoid hits, and you combine that with the fact you can be instant downed as well, that's absolutely something you want to avoid. The problem is off hook, it basically has no threat cause it takes too long, even with add-ons, so it can be effectively ignored for at least a good half a gens worth before it realistically becomes a concern.

    I would also argue that being able to reliably wait out Decisive Strike, especially over 2 cycles is an investement of time that isn't really worth it in grand scheme, and kinda has this idea of being fixated and determined to tunnel, rather than a genuine consideration of if its actually beneficial for you to do so or not. I'd argue you're usually better off trying to down the survibor ASAP and taking the DS if you're so determined to tunnel, cause now your next tunnel off hook is immediate, no counting required.

    We've had this back and forth quite a few times with regards to killer powers when discussing Pig, Sadako, even Knight, so I imagine we'll continue to disagree here πŸ˜…

    You have a tendency to see little to no value in survivor slowdown at a macro level. A non-tunneling playstyle attempts to keep survivors engaged with as many tasks as possible, and knowing survivors are occupied dealing with the threat of your power, be it RBTs, Condemn, Infection, Jailer, Hex: Devour Hope, whatever it is to seek a chance to put survivors in an unrecoverable snowball position. It also attempts to keep control of the game via overloading survivors to keep them dealing with your slowdown, healing and unhooking instead of working on gen progress to by more time for that moment to occur. This is not your playstyle I gather, where if it doesn't directly facilitate killing a survivor quickly, then it's use kinda gets written off for you.

    The classic example I recall is our discussion around Pig, where you see RBTs as a mechanism that allows you to predict where the injured survivor off hook is while doing RBTs, thus allowing you to intercept and throw them straight back on hook for a second hookstage, thus making it easier to tunnel. This is again true, you are not wrong, and you can do this, but I hold the opinion that by doing this, you're a weak m1 killer not making use of your slowdown, whi h is Pig's main strength. If you fail to down this survivor quickly, get caught by a DS or a Dead Hard, and/or end up wasting lots of time focusing more on pushing this survivor off boxes repeatedly, you can easily throw the whole game. You can even lose this survivor depending on RBT rng. The Pig to my mind is more about identifying your trap pattern while trying to maintain a 3vs1 to then squeeze at the right time when you know a 4 box headtrap is in play and the good options available to survivors are significantly limited. This is what slow down mechanics facilitate, the ability to exert presure on multiple survivors while the other survibors are occupied.

    Returning to Wesker, none of what you've said is wrong perce', but we're once again on this discussion of the value of survivor time pressure. Mechanisms like Wesker infection force survivors to take time off gens to deal with the killers passive threat, and by extension buying more time in the trial. It's a problem for survivors that coming off hook survivors need to run somewhere safe (because of the tunnel threat), take the time to heal, then cleanse the infection. Ideally the helper brought a first aid with them, but if not the unhooked survivor has to go and grab one from somewhere which can add 20s or more to their down time just from all the walking they have to do. All of this amplifies with Wesker's build, whether is gen regression, healing time increase, hex builds, whatever he's trying to do.

    If you're doing especially well, this cycle continues to play out, overlapping different unhooks, and the survivors are having to take longer and longer routes to run across the map and cleanse your infection, alleviating gen pressure for Wesker, while also having the ever mounting threat you find the survivor you need to tunnel out of the game. This seems to me where your playstyle doesn't seem compatible with slowdown killers, because in all our discussions, you seem to continually hold the stance that there is nothing of value in any of this, and instead seem to prefer to tunnel, which is fine, but it's not the only way to play.

    My goal with this change is to ensure that infection is a consistent time sink survivors need to deal with when facing Wesker, which in turn creates windows where a timely down limits the options available for survivors for things like unhooking, healing, trying to make saves, etc, etc.

    This is the unique combination for traits Wesker brings. Decently strong chase and map traversal power with a weaker slow mechanic vs. Blights very strong chase and map traversal power and no slowdown mechanic at all vs. Pig's weak chase power/map mobility supplemented by stealth, with a strong slowdown mechanic.

    Wesker having a weaker, but consistent slowdown in his kit is a buff that makes a killer that strikes a good balance of strengths, without him being oppressive or unfair with any of them.

  • buggybug
    buggybug Member Posts: 338

    I am up for any wesker buffs as an re vet who was excited for his release wesker was balanced and only the infection needed a nerf to reduce tunneling, the hindrance was a none issue.

    He should have his power cool down reduced for miss grabs cause why should billy get to spam his chain saw after missing but Wesker cant with a horrible cool down on his power?

    I miss him so much and you have so much other boring irritating killers like spirit with her non counter play because its not everyone games with a headset and even if you do you still have to be lucky cause of fake phasing and what not

    Nemesis is far more annoying and a bane compare to wesker cause being forced off gens via zombies or some how as your looping a strong area they come and hit you out of no where and buffing his tentacle hit box was so stupid. The zombies too is free info for him to know where a person can be.

  • Royval
    Royval Member Posts: 739

    Haste the more survivors are infected by Uroboros. It’ll make the iri very good! I also think he should have gloves basekit πŸ˜ƒ

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 8,835
    edited November 6

    it is 5 second time sink. really it's a little better than mangled for hook heals. if you aggressively search for chests when killer has 0 map presence, you can hold a spray bottle for entire match and disinfect. the strength of infection was its chase capacity which is why it got nerfed.

    now it's just glorified decisive strike timer for killer. you have slow burn the survivor now to gain chase benefits. realistically if you slug like 3/4 players and only 1 hook person, you can keep 3/4 of survivors infected and tunnel the one person by avoiding decisive strike. that what i do with him if i play him.

  • fussy
    fussy Member Posts: 1,639

    He is still strong, so why buff him?

    I wouldn't say so. He is definately above average, but he is far from being actually strong. Many comp players but him in B tier due to how counterable he is. His chase just good, not great, his map mobility is average, really far from being good. I put him in high B/low A. So before forum fills up with crying that "Wesker doesn't need a buff" after PTB, I'll say this here and now: Wesker definitely needs a buff. Especially after the series of nerfs he's been getting since he came out.

    What about your suggestion: not necessary, but good suggestion. I just don't think they will waste time on implementing it. I mean, people who ignore sprays will be punished anyway, I don't think it's such important thing and will be a huge difference in matches.