Looks like many people reached an agreement of using knockout
Seriously, why so many people started to use this perk and why BHVR haven't changed it?
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Because its a fun perk and why would it need changing lol it does what it is meant to do so meh why does it need changing cause you dislike it or do not know how to play around it? Weird logic
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"Fun perk"
Is just an unhealthy perk and I hope they nerf it to the ground
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Dont mind him. For every person making a post about why slugging all 4 people with knockout isnt good for the game, you get one of those people that use it and cause the problem, to join ur comment section lol. But yea tons of people arent happy with it either. I hope the devs have it on their to do listin future updates
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Because the viability of slugging vs hooking has been a hot topic lately and knock is a perk designed to make slugging more effective.
It does do that, but i think the difference in it's effect between solo q and swf needs to be addressed. Beyond that, behaviour would need to evaluate if they want slugging to be a part of the game at all.6 -
Ah yeah i forgot you have no anti slugging perks gotcha.
stay pressed4 -
Oh yeah, I never thought about using this perk to slug teams. Thanks for recommending it. 👍️
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If we're complaining about our opponents abilities being "un fun" then we also need to look into removing flashlights and sabotage.
I do think it's more of a solo queue stomper, but the question is how do you solve that without nerfing the perk into the ground. It still needs to make finding dying survivors more difficult, that's it's entire shtick.
It could potentially get the NOED treatment. It reduces the range at which your aura is revealed to other survivors, gradually increasing as your bleedout bar goes down. Say from 8 meters up to 32 meters.
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Just makes bond more mandatory to run then what it already is. Maybe they should change the perk where you deplete 20 seconds of bleed out timer if you down a survivor with a basic attack. my experience with pure slugging is that you either win because entire survivor team makes loads of errors rapidly or you get this long drawn out game of survivors picking each other up vs swf.
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Find it funny that we always have to cater to survivors constant complaining, enough of the hand holding if its not this it be something else it is always something else they are truly never happy unless they get everything they want so they do not actually have to rely on skill or just using the right perks to counter.
Slugging is not against the rules the sooner they accept that it is part of the game the better, and if they can't handle a PVP style game that they are not able to control completely maybe minecraft be a better choice.
Yes i slug i wont bleed out and its generally if exit gates are open or 1 gen left and the team make it easy for me to do it like hanging all around one place.
I care about your fun as much as you care about mine so meh ridiculous that people still expect others to play for there fun but never worry about how they play may not be fun for the other side absolute no self awareness.7 -
BHVR hasn't nerfed it because it has a very low pickrate.
I'm not inherently opposed to slugging but I agree that knock out needs a change - it encourages and enables slugging that in particular hurts solo queue players.
The problem with the perk is the infinite duration of hiding the slug's aura.
While there is a use case to safely slug people temporarily while you check on somewhere else, knockout 99% of the time means exclusively 4 man slugging which again mostly hurts solo queue players who can't otherwise communicate where they died.
4 man slugging only works if you get hits and downs faster than the survs can get heals and pick ups (while also doing gens and before a bleedout happens) and not knowing where your teammates are bleeding out delays the picking up to an unhealthy amount.
The hidden aura aspect of knock out needs one or both of:
- Timer (< 30 seconds)
- Stops working when someone else gets downed
Note that this leaves the slower recovery/crawl speed untouched. That way, knock out is still an effective tool to temporarily slug (the use case mentioned before) while nerfing the problematic 4 man slugging strategy it enables.
— General Slugging Commentary Below —
More generally, slugging is a problem in that it's too strong AND more incentivised over hooking but I do not think we need basekit unbreakable. Instead - the strength comes from perks like knockout and slugging killers like billy and twins, which each need to be addressed.
There also need to be basekit changes to incentivise hooking like
- more BPs for fresh hooks so we can max Sacrifice BPs without late hooks.
- nerfs to flashbang and sabo.
- make flashlight blinds harder again in return for bringing back lightburn for at least nurse but definitely not wraith.
- And maybe same form of basekit mini pop (but definitely not pain res please I beg).
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See at least this person can come in and give a actual valid response and a way that it can be reworked to make it fairer, not as brutal on soloq etc, instead of the typical braindead replies of "Oh its not fun lets nerf it to the ground".
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Why would it be mandatory to run a perk that counters a killer perk with about the same usage as unrelenting? Do you see unrelenting a lot?
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Like killers dont do the same thing take a page out of your own book. Like when you bad at catching people and lost the game and you have crutch ED giving you free kills you did not even deserve? Or when when karma hits you and you get a team that mops the floor with you and cry its swf bullies(even though its not only swfs that can do that, but the rare good solo q teammates can bullies too yeah? Then its nerf this nerf that nerf this nerf that. Omg they have HOPE it needs to be nerfed (because the survivor who survived the trial dont deserve a lil 7% speed boost.
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I’m actually agree with this except the sabo and flashlights nerfs. Sabo was buffed in order to encourage survivors to use toolboxes on hooks instead of gens, kinda funny because it doesn’t happen, a sabo squad is rarely to face. And according to BHVR’s stats flashlights save are even rarer lmao
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Don't get me wrong. I'd gladly see knock out nerfed into the ground because it's a stupid perk that promotes stupid gameplay, at least until bhvr can figure out what to do with it. I just find it more productive identifying a perk's issues and the negative gameplay impacts, and nerfing that in particular.
My hot take is that all items are in a very uninspired 1-dimensional state, with a lot of missed potential for addons to have interesting effects beyond just "wow, gens go fast!". That aside, 100% sabo speed is just too free and having 50% speed on commodious just doesn't make sense. With flashlights, the hardest part of getting saves is actually being in position for it, which the early buffer doesn't affect.
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Not so deep and never did i say that killers do not have problematic perks but hey YOU look through the majority of discussions they are ALL survivors complaining about anything and everything that may even slightly hinder them.
So in your logic survivors can have all the second chance crutch perks which are active all game, and say it was a deserved win but heaven forbid a killer has perks that only activate during end game collapse to help them is not a deserved win?
Most of our hexes get destroyed within a sparrow fart of the game starting it is like the RNG God puts a dam sign saying ITS OVER HERE!
I at least don't run into every game expecting to win, then make excuses why you lost because a killer was running xyz perk, i lose games it is the way you learn to get better not by complaining about every perk that you deem unfun and want to simply gut it without actually putting in a constructive suggestion on how to make it better for both sides.For example
- DS was fine the only thing i change on it was disable during end game collapse.
- DH should not really been changed bar the distance side
- Knockout sure needs a rework but not gutted maybe a timer or distance change so that after a certain time the aura comes back for other survivors or that the aura is revealed when within a certain distance.
This game will never be balanced for either side and there will always be one side more powerful than the other it is what it is in this style of game. Gone are the days when the killer was always meant to be the Power Role and we all know BHVR caters to survivors due to being more survivors than killer mains and that means they bring more cash to the company. So why wouldn't they cater to the survivors.
I rather lose to a team that enjoys a loop or gives me a challenge or a so called "bully" squad as most bully squads aint bullying they are just having fun their own way and do not care if they do not escape, than some rat squad that urban evades or hides in lockers all game and then escapes and then thinks they deserved the win.
My previous statement remains i do not care for your fun as i am not one like you that expects the other side to play a certain way for my enjoyment lmao. You play how you want but stop expecting others to change for you.0 -
Slugging in end game is a good strategy you may dislike it but who cares if you do or not bring soul guard or something lol. Time that you all relied more on skill and countering playstyles instead of simply going "its too hard or i dont like it nerf pig"
Maybe to prevent the slugging at 5 gens knockout only activates during end game collapse.0 -
I don't care about slugging in the endgame, I'm talking about how knock out specifically makes slugging too easy at all points of the game especially against solo queue players.
I know survivors complain a lot about killer things - I play a lot of killer, with literally over 12,000 sacrifices. I just happen to also play survivor so I know what versing knock out is like (spoiler alert, miserable). There's a reason why if someone is 4 man slugging (as an m1 killer) they usually have knockout - because it's (too) effective.
I even slug a lot (I literally play oni), I just know that knock out tips it into problematic territory (as do certain killers like billy, twins, singularity). At a certain point you can't call "skill issue!" and instead have to tell bhvr to make changes, which is why I'm here and not yelling at the people I'm versing in game who run it.
inb4 "you're secretly a survivor main" - I want so many things on the survivor side nerfed — deli, otr, resurgence, flashbang, revert to 60 second hook stages, weaker anti-camp and even resi and deja vu, to name a few off the top of my head. But that's not relevant to this thread.
#deleteknockout
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I think they're more likely to rule in "we're fine with it" or "we don't care".
The bigger question is: Can you all handle BHVR not giving the reply you want? Honest question…0 -
Knockout truly not the main problem i just faced a slugging nurse and trapper, it was not running knockout nor was the trapper.
Nurse slugged at 5 gens more because the team were morons
Trapper in end game collapse
I have never used knockout and able to slug quite happily without the perk.
Just on nightlights website it shows an actual decrease in its usage and appearance sure its not the be all and end all as not everybody uses it but is one of the main places i know of that is fairly comprehensive.
Instead of simply going off random people word on the forum also who we all know exaggerate and great at gaslighting without a shred of actual evidence except for the typical "I was slugged and bled out for the last 10 games because of knockout" , check yourself because honestly i have in the last maybe 1 week of play been slugged 3 or 4 times and none were running knockout.
I agree it should not be a blanket no CD map wide sort of thing there should be some limitations to it i agree but to say delete it then that silly because it is good for certain builds which do not include slugging.
Also how a lot of the perks your wanting to nerf i think are just fine how they are tbh, i even think they should bring back the original DS but leave it so that it does not activate after the final gen pops.3 -
Theres nothing fun about using it.
you never see or feel actual value, it's just there screwing other that kind of survivors you should be effortlessly beating anyway lmao
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Not to fun for you but not for others mayeb quit gatekeeping other peoples fun
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Rare things can be problematic and in need of changes. Rare but bad games are what people remember and negatively affect people's perceived enjoyment of the game. I don't need to explain why bhvr wants people to enjoy playing their game.
I never said knock out was common nor that you need it to slug. But in games with knock out, slugging is too hard to counter because it's too hard to find your teammates in a timely manner.
People overstate 4 man slugging because those are the bad games that they remember, but that's exactly why slugging should be addressed. I checked myself and I recently got knockout slugged by a known slugger in OCE who I've seen a few times in the past few years - he always runs knock out because the perk is good for slugging. Like I said, rare but bad things should be changed.
Other than knock out, I don't want basekit UB but at least changes to incentivise hooking over slugging, ie make the time cost and risk of attempting to hook worth it. Certain killers also should be tweaked (e.g. lose singularity slipstream when downed and billy's overdrive should go on cooldown when chainsaw downing a surv).
Endgame collapse slugging doesn't matter and nurse like all m2 killers (especially S tiers) is irrelevant to knockout - also slugging is the only way you can get value from knockout. Play a few games with knock out and you'll understand what I'm saying.
If we're mentioning stats, by official February stats nurse has the lowest kill rate,
but she hasn't been buffed because you can't blindly look at stats without context. The same applies to knockout stats, especially from nightlight which has a selection bias to more experienced and more likely skilled players, who outperform the average player. In nightlight, knockout kill rate is lowered by the most frequent appearance being adept bubba: an average and m2 killer, likely less experienced if adepting, and having two other average perks.
Look at the rest of the most common builds. Popular slugging perks like third seal, sloppy butcher, forced hesi etc indicate the intent to 4 man slug and among those builds the median kill rate is 100%. This suggests that knockout is too good at slugging. That said it may be inflated by angry people uploading their knockout 4 man slug games.
An aside. knockout peaks in june/july (anniversary), which reflecting common sentiment that trolls love to 4 man slug (e.g. the infamous peepeepoopoo wraith in NA West) suggests that people love to troll with knockout during events because it's effective.
nightlight stats aren't great. which is why I'd love official stats showing killrates for each killer, with and without knock out, across games with exclusively solo players, 1 or 2 solo players, and 4 man swfs. Excluding many m2 killers that don't often m1 (especially bubba because of his adept) I would predict that knockout is a positive indicator for higher kill rates.
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i will gatekeep fun if by fun you mean using things which sole purpose is ruining the game for people with no comms in the most miserable way imaginable LUL
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So your using stats that are near a year old to make claims and the stats honestly are fairly generic at best, but i do see your point may not agree with it all but i do see it.
third seal - you can cleanse it so it is counterable
sloppy butcher- not sure how healing speed has anything to do with slugging
forced hesitation - how is this at all got to do with slugging unless your silly and hanging around the killer, and it also has a CD so its not continually active.
These your clutching at straws in my opinion these are great slow down perks for killers yes but you can slug with any perk really are you saying lets remove or nerf to the groun any perk that can even be slightly used to assist slugging?Reminds me when a tonne of gen regression perks got crapped on. Where does it end though? When does it truly become a actual problem to survivors basically lacking skill and just wishing to nerf any perk they feel is unfun or causing problems.
I think its a event focused issue this sort of things generally become worse during events, lets see how it is after the event finishes. I feel this slugging "epidemic" has only been made worse because of trolls coming out during the event2 -
You missed the point of me including the nurse kill rate stats, which is to say that stats don't exist in a vacuum because we all know nurse is definitely not the third weakest killer. The knock out stats were on nightlight from games since the 8.3.0 patch.
I mentioned the other perks only as evidence that the most common knockout builds all revolve around slugging, not that they need a nerf because again knockout hiding the slug aura indefinitely is the problem. How do you not understand how sloppy butcher or forced hesi help with slugging? sloppy = injured for longer = easier to down survivors = more slugging. And forced hesi makes it easier to move onto your next surv after a down if survivors are nearby.
I only mentioned the anniversary as an aside, because I will always be a knock out hater, both in and out of events.
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A bunch of astroturfing on the forums is not the same as "many people".
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There are perks that completely counter the aura hiding feature of 'Knockout,' pick them up and use them if KO really bothers you that much.
It feels weird when people tell killers to just take 'shattered hope' to counter infinite-cast boons, but that's just the way it is.
If something abnormal starts happening more frequently in your games, and you choose not to adapt, that's on you.
It's wrong for the devs to dismantle something just because you're too unintuitive to do something as basic as changing your build.
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I made a post about this the other day too, Knock just came back out the blue. One session I had 3 games against it, not all back to back, different variations but always the same reason to use it, just slug on the floor till the games basically written off. It didn't matter either that for a couple of the games we had a 3 man swf on coms because trying to direct from the floor proved a bit too difficult killer would find us before we could get the pick up. It was unbearable. This tied in with the finisher Mori & we're looking at the worst game state I've seen in this game possibly ever in this almost 9 years. Slugging or Tunneling, both need addressing because players just aren't having fun playing or not playing as the case may be a game they paid for.
Went on a bit of a rant there, but I do agree though Knock needs addressing with how bad slugging has been & seemingly is being rather prevalently at the moment. It's come out of nowhere to show why it's a strong perk & unfortunately in a very toxic way XD
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