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Tired of all the complaining against killers

Ok, everyday there’s dozens of posts crying about tunneling or slugging and such. Let me try to help you understand something: That’s the idea of the game. It’s supposed to be hard to survive, that’s the thrill of the game.

The game is incredibly survivor sided. You might say:


“Killers hold a 60% win rate” Yes buuuuut this is considering every single tier, skill and mmr division there is. How many times have you had a guy leaving the game after his first hook? People doing glyphs, opening chests or just being silly and not doing the objective? A lot right? If people played to win as survivors, it would be at least a 70-30 survivor win rate.

“We don’t believe you!”

Have you seen competitive games? Every single game the killer has to slug, tunnel and camp hook and most of the times he gets a 2k, with all gens completed in 5 minutes.

Please guys, understand that is part of the fun, beating the odds and surviving. Even end game is very survivor sided. Hatch, unbreakable, keys, doors, adrenaline. There’s plenty of chances to survive, just enjoy the fun and stop trying to nerf killers to the ground, at high MMR is already very hard to win and dare I say, stressful as hell.

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Comments

  • n000b51
    n000b51 Member Posts: 749
    edited November 8

    @Vishlumbra :
    My best advice for your problem 'Tired of the complaining against killers' :
    close your internet browser…

    When you speak about 'competitive', high MMR & things.. Are you speaking for yourself too ?
    'cause I ngl but I certainly have a low-mid MMR (probably below 1100) and I swear: I'm so often be slugged, camped & 100% killed bleeding on the floor (by my own fault & mistakes or not) that in soloQ these fancy stats are absolutely unreal: I am 100% dead 9 games on 10 in this way ! And sometimes (I can't tell how often it happens) these 'strats' start since the beginning of the trial (at 5 gens) and not at the all end…

    How can we find that so 'fun' ? It requires no effort for killer to stay in the same place & to incitate randoms in soloQ to lack of coordination. And now, they have all the reasons to do so…

    So you can complain about complaining against killers but I can complain about the fancy things that everyone can tell about statistics, gameplay or whatever else in contradiction with the main lines…

  • Tits
    Tits Member Posts: 310

    Ill admit ive seen both sides of this for quite a while. When playing killer sometimes you decide to take it easy and follow the "rulebook" and then the survivors take FULL advantage of it and t bag you out the gates rather than be a good sport about it or even mention it in thr endgame chat. So you feel pressed to kill mow them down and take FULL advantage of any of their "casual" play. But then theres times when ur on survivor and you bring like a healing build or something, just need some unhooks, and the killer just hard tunnels you so you cant even breathe or try to hide or anything then u just die and get nothing out of the round except a bit mad. So you go to the next one and somehow it happens again. So you go to the next one with distortion to try to not be first atleast, still happens. Theres a point where the survivors dont get to even play at all. Just feed the killer their points and entertainment. So on both ends it sucks, but currently the only way to counteract all that is to just go "meh... next round might be better" until you finally do get to enjoy a round that day.

  • Vishlumbra
    Vishlumbra Member Posts: 72

    You are not supposed to win every game. That’s the reality of things. I didn’t imply unbreakable is bad or anything, I mentioned it cause it’s a counter measure to a lot of the complaints. I am not making things up, there’s 3 decent competitive DBD leagues and in all of them, camping is not only allowed and enforced, is needed to have a chance.

    If you aspire to win, you have to put in the work and I’m sorry if you lose but it means your team was not focused on winning or you had a good killer which ultimately, makes it fun.

    Answering your MMR question, on my main killer I get basically full 100P survivors and it’s incredibly hard, stressful and thrilling, winning games, yet I wouldn’t have it any other way, cause in the end of the match even if I won or I lost, we all had fun and the thrill that has made this game so successful.

  • Toystory3Monkey
    Toystory3Monkey Member Posts: 756

    game is only survivor sided if they are playing on equal grounds with the killer. that is rarely the case.

    devs do a smart thing by keeping a compromise.

  • Vishlumbra
    Vishlumbra Member Posts: 72

    The best killer in the world, let’s say Zaka for example, on equal ground has to:

    Chase 1 survivor for 2 minutes or so to get a hook, in the meantime he lost 2 gens and about to lose a third one. He has to camp the hook till at least second stage, survivors move to rescue, he slugs one if he is lucky and he has to go into chase again, he finally kills one, and by that time there’s 1 (very rarely 2 gens up) and you are talking about the best killer player in the world. Mind you, with the advantage of not allowing a survivor to unhook himself. He then has to slug till he gets a chance to win or lose the match. That’s 90% of every competitive game.

    That sounds like a core design fault killer biased?

  • crogers271
    crogers271 Member Posts: 1,801

    Ok, everyday there’s dozens of posts crying about tunneling or slugging and such. Let me try to help you understand something: That’s the idea of the game. It’s supposed to be hard to survive, that’s the thrill of the game.

    The problem with tunneling and slugging is that they are boring. In a tunneling scenario you are either the tunneled target, which means you play a game, or you slam gens and do some body blocking of the killer.

    In slugging, if we're talking about full game slugging (part of the problem with slugging discussions is it means a ton of different things), you're just lying on the ground waiting for the game to end.

    You can discuss the merits of the game being hard for survivors all you want, I don't disagree, but the killer has incredible easy strategies that require incredibly little skill that can make the game very boring.

    If people played to win as survivors, it would be at least a 70-30 survivor win rate.

    I played a lot of sports when I was younger. If I just got to discount every game with a bad teammate, someone who wasn't as intense as I was, or not as skilled, I'd have a great winning percentage as well.

    But you can't just ignore the issue that part of teams is people of different skill levels because that's part of team games.

    Have you seen competitive games? Every single game the killer has to slug, tunnel and camp hook and most of the times he gets a 2k, with all gens completed in 5 minutes.

    I wish competitive games were that quick.

    The last three matches of the All Hallows League (DBD League) that have been posted to YouTube involved 14 games

    Times: 11:30, 7:00, 8:30, 9:45, 6:00, 7:30, 17:00, 14:00, 7:30. 9:30, 12:00, 13:00, 10:00, 11:30. And the shortest of those games, the 6:00, was a 4k.

    Answering your MMR question, on my main killer I get basically full 100P survivors 

    Either my killer MMR is higher than I think it is, or this is not nearly as rare as some people make it out to be.

    High MMR and high rating is inclined to survivors. That’s what the game at its core it’s programmed to be, yet, thanks to certain aspects, matchmaking and general posture of players during a match, killers tend to do slightly better considering the WHOLE ocean of players.

    This is not backed up by their stats which they've released for high MMR.

  • selflessnea
    selflessnea Member Posts: 576

    Pretty sure they are talking about tournament play. Which the game is not designed around.

  • Vishlumbra
    Vishlumbra Member Posts: 72

    I didn’t say is impossible to lose as survivor, I’m saying if it’s a group of 4 survivors playing to win, they have a very very good chance of winning, more so than the killer.

    I am not saying: Make the game easier for killers, that’s the perception of people wanting to challenge my post decide, which isn’t.

    I am trying to avoid bringing more and more nerfs because people keep complaining that killers kill them. They brought now a “trade hook state” with a survivor on hook. They nerfed many killers which none of them is actually considered S tier by any means in this last patch, and everyday there’s many posts complaining that sluggin is bad and we should feel ashamed of slugging a survivor in order to get a 4K.

    The “data” we have is that killers win 60% of the time, that’s enough for most to suggest we need to bring more nerfs to killers, when in reality is just that when 4 people of different skill are matched together (which is the majority of matches played) they only win 40% of the time.

    The sentiment im trying to bring here, is that the game feels ok as it is, and adding more and more ways for people not to feel bad for not escaping is detrimental to the essence of the game.

    One of the solutions I suggested (cause people claim that is not fun waiting on the ground to bleed out if you get slugged towards the end of the match) was that there could be an option to risk getting up at a 4% chance or bleeding out, that would give you a chance to opt out while keeping your BP without DCing.

    But saying that they should totally make it impossible to “tunnel” or slug survivors is detrimental to the game.

  • Lixadonna
    Lixadonna Member Posts: 218

    The Devs remove every Killer complaint. Dead Hard, Made For This, Prove Thyself, Adrenaline. Killer still think they have a valid reason to Tunnel or Camp. Don't you notice majority of complaint is game quality and not about Killer or Perks?

  • KerJuice
    KerJuice Member Posts: 1,907
    edited November 8

    Getting tunneled and camped out is not fun; hence the complaints.

    Killers should be buffed in other ways that do not feel cheap to go against. Every killer from now on should give survivors secondary objectives like Pig, Onryo, Pinhead, Alien, etc. to help add another dynamic to gameplay that waste survivors time and give them something else to worry about. Everyone I listed above is fun to go against when they play survivors straight up. When Pinhead came out with the Pento/Plaything Meta, he dominated. As hard as that was, I enjoyed the challenge (like you mentioned earlier) of trying to beat that build. My solo que teammates kept ragequitting and letting go on hook. I hated Pinhead’s guts but I did not complain- despite escaping from him 1 out of 10 times.

  • Vishlumbra
    Vishlumbra Member Posts: 72

    Of those you mentioned, only Alien is considered decent tier. Onryo is a joke and needs buffs. Giving killers secondary objectives because there´s a fault in the design to escape is not a solution. Without slugging 4ks are a coin toss. Without tunneling, the game is incredibly hard to win. AGAIN I DO NOT ADVOCATE FOR BUFFING KILLERS. I am trying to provide an insight on why sometimes these kind of strategies are needed. Everyday there is a post, "Slug is bad, tunneling is bad". I think you all forget I also play as survivor and I have also experienced such games, yet I dont think the solution is just assume that every killer is busted and we need to nerf them to the ground.

    NOT EVERY SINGLE GAME IS A SLUG FEST. Just as not every game is a nightmare versus a pro killer.

    Somebody mentioned competitve where killers tend to win more and thats not the case, the most common result is a draw, and in all 3 leagues of competitive DBD, slugging and camping hook is not only allowed, is needed to win as killer. In those games, where survivors are trying to win, they had to implement a rule where camping is allowed, otherwise the killer would never win.

    I think that creating a mechanic where a downed survivor has a 4% chance to stand up or bleed out would make it faster if you allready lost the game WHILE also keeping your BP and avoiding people to just DC before the match ends.

    I just dont want more nerfs. I think that most killers mains would agree that a lot of times facing a group of good survivors is not even fun, is just stressful.

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  • Vishlumbra
    Vishlumbra Member Posts: 72
    edited November 8

    The nerfs are in place so it´s basically an uphill battle against you all I guess. Its borderline comical saying that competitive is not important, those players are basically proving of what each player is capable off, providing with real insight on why certain aspects are unbalanced and pretty much pointing you in the right direction. (Maybe thats why the leagues are run by players?)

    When you have the best Killer players in the planet HAVING to use such strategies to win, that might tell you something about the state of the game. (Which imo, is fine as it is). That should bring up that "Empathy" and understand that the tools to win as survivors are in place and not just feel entiltled to demmand butchering 50% of the game.

    I am trying to stop the posture of thinking the game should give even more tools to survivors to win because they feel bad for a lost game.

    I am not FEEDING the idea that slugging or tunneling, I am not advocating that that is the way it SHOULD be played, I am saying it is PART of the game and it is needed sometimes, and just because it feels bad being tunneled or being on the ground, that doesnt mean we should nerf every strategy killers come up with to try to win.

    Post edited by Vishlumbra on
  • GeneralV
    GeneralV Member Posts: 11,171

    No problem, my friends!

    You've said it all. Comp DBD is basically a joke.

  • smurf
    smurf Member Posts: 276

    Agreed.

    The game is mostly played by casual players, not by people who make money doing it. Tunneling, camping, and getting slugged for 4k can make the a person playing survivor wonder why they even play the match.

    The game should be enjoyable for the survivor and killer players, even if they lose the match, and the existence of 'strategies' that can make the game feel not worth playing suggests we need tweaks to the game design.

    Also agree that too many people talk about how survivors or killers are asking for something. I wonder how much of the player base actually plays just one role 90% of the time or more?

  • Vishlumbra
    Vishlumbra Member Posts: 72
    edited November 8

    I really dont see why my post has becomed a battle against comp, or killers or trying to protect survivors. I am advocating for leaving the game as it is without implementing more nerfs.

    It really makes no sense the arguments you are all giving, mainly because you claim is a matter of MMR and that the game is balanced and not survivor biased because of how some people chose to play. If anyone with higher skill claims or proves something and you all assume he is always wrong and that shouldnt apply to the "real" game, how come EVERY SINGLE TIER LIST OF KILLERS ranks nurse, blight and hillbilly top spot. Have you faced a normal nurse? They are terrible. Same could be said of a bad billy or blight, yet those lists are based on a good skill and performance from above avarage players, how come when it comes to the macro game, that goes out of the window and you all just try to demerit every argument I give. Good survivors are the top tier, not killers. I want survivors nerfed? NO. I want killers BUFFED? NO (At least on a macro level, a few of them could use some buffs, namely Freddy, Onryo, Trapper etc).

    I am not fighting against anyone, I am not the one that makes dozens of posts every single day crying about slugging or camping or tunneling, I am trying to make people understand that those are needed strategies. Dont you think there are toxic survivor strategies? Mainly is a fault at design but have you ever faced an unhookable group of survivors, with map offering camping a gen at a top floor? Making hooks invisible, boil over, no mitter etc? If you dont slug they would win 100%. What we doing about those? Should we nerf those perks because it feels bad for the killer? No. It is fine.

    I think what we all should be asking for is update for certain killers that are outdated and weak. Asking for real updates to killer powers instead of moving a few numbers (Cough Ghostface), more fun elements to survivor gameplay, new posibilities or maps, good new content, not just judging every single killer as the same and claiming they HAVE to stop the slugging and tunneling. If those were to dissapear, they would have to actually invest a lot of time balancing killers to have better chances of winning.

    Btw stats say that with good perks, survivors have a high 35%-40% chance of surviving, in order to tie a game, you have to beat those odds twice. If you aspire to win as killer three times. Can’t really base everything on killers win 60% survivors 40%.

  • Lixadonna
    Lixadonna Member Posts: 218
    edited November 8

    Stop caring about winning. You say Killer is stressful but that's because you want to win. Stressed Killer are bad at the game and good Survivor rattle that confidence. Hence why Killer turn to Tunnel and Slug.

  • Vishlumbra
    Vishlumbra Member Posts: 72
    edited November 8

    Should every game be a clown fest then? Of course I play to win, I actually hardly slug but I do tunnel sometimes, I need it to TRY to win versus certain comps (maybe because my main is a weak killer by most standards).

    Killer is stressful because you have to react, plan ahead and focus, and most “good” survivors are toxic, that doesn’t mean I am bad at the game or I am using non community approved strategies to win. I want to win, winning is fun, loosing is not that fun. My position is way more neutral than all this hate towards comp and killers. I just don’t think we need more nerfs to killers and less a macro adjustment to avoid such strategies, because in the end, let’s assume they forbid or prevent slugging or tunneling (which they kinda did recently with the new perk). What then? Someone would come up with a strategy to win as killer, it would be labeled as toxic and then we start again.

    If today, magically they removed the possibility to slug and tunnel, 95% of every killer would be incapable of securing a win consistently unless the survivors wanted to give him the win.

    What most survivors like is having the killer as a puppy chasing them and making sure they will escape every single game. God forbid someone brings over the killer side of things and everyone goes United hands for the poor survivors. What about my experience and my playtime? Is the killer duty to amuse you or win?

    Ain’t easy balancing the game, specially having so many killers now and having such a variety of strength tiers in them, a good meta nurse or billy with good knowledge is going to be a way harder match than facing a trapper or Freddy or Onryo or Pig or all the “weaker” killers. My posture is, enjoy the game as it is because we are walking on very thin ice regarding killers, a lot of them end up feeling pointless for people because they know they are mastering a killer that is weak by design.

    I had hope they would actually do something interesting with all these changes to old killers, they missed the mark by a landslide. Mayers changes and Ghostface ones are laughable and Demo change was basically implemented because of an strategy someone came up with to yes… win.

  • smurf
    smurf Member Posts: 276
    edited November 8

    Most players are casual, not top tier. Casual players will generally have their gaming experience ruined by things like tunneling, camping, full team slugging, and slugging for 4k. Survivors at that level have only one toxic strategy, and they know it will get them tunneled if the killer isn't very good or just gets angry: they can teabag during chase.

    The fact that very top tier survivors make the game hard for very top tier killers isn't a justification for leaving in things that will make most other people regret playing their matches. This is a game design issue for both casual and high level play.

  • Vishlumbra
    Vishlumbra Member Posts: 72

    The amount of perks, items and possibilities survivors have to rush gens force such strategies, the game has issues regarding balancing killers, making objectives harder and rewarding a different approach from killers.

    If survivors played with 0 altruism, they would win wayyyyyyy more and such strategies would be long gone, because by the time you end up tunneling or camping 1, the other 3 would be sitting at 1 gen remaining with a spread gen load out, making it impossible to win for the killer. Altruism is very fun and part of the gameplay as survivor, it comes with a risk and that’s fine, just as slugging, camping or tunneling comes at a risk for the killer.

    Imagine if they actually removed tunneling and slugging and camping hooks. How you balance that? Considering the way they “buff” killers, proven by the latest patch notes that make absolutely nothing to solve the issues of the current meta.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 2,008

    Maybe because you brought up comp? It would go a long way to explain it. You also referenced the comp scene for balance reasons (ie: these things shouldn't be nerfed because in comp they're needed to "win". Paraphrased of course but you get the point.) which probably doesn't help. Ohh also:

    Your indirectly claiming comp maters more and saying they're the best of the best while ignoring the pitfalls of comp and the inherent RNG and chaos of the average wild match.

    As we said in our last post, your not making strong arguments for your case.

    Those three hold the top spots in tier list cause first: those are opinions of the Creator of said lists. Second because while we shouldn't count explicitly bad players, an average Billy or blight will still do very well against an average team.

    You keep saying they're needed but you refuse to address how players are explicitly using said strategies to make playing survivor worse. Of course there's toxic survivor strategies but there are ways to practically negate a majority of them as killer while survivors can only weaken them, especially when there's skill gaps common in the wild. This doesn't make them ok but ATM killers can effectively make sure survivors play very very little. Side note how are you getting invisible hooks?

    Btw stats say that with good perks, survivors have a high 35%-40% chance of surviving, in order to tie a game, you have to beat those odds twice.

    Can you please show us those stats?

  • MrOogieboogie
    MrOogieboogie Member Posts: 71

    I agree with what you saying to a point. It SHOULD feel good and like an accomplishment to be a relatively helpless survivor against a powerful killer, but but but…being slugged, camped, and tunneled simply isn't fun. Of course, it can be easy to accidentally tunnel (happening to find the same survivor twice in a row…just bad luck sometimes). My ideal games are everyone on death hook with 1 gen left…then everyone is generally locking in hard, usually with a couple dying and a couple escaping. Satisfying game either way.

  • Vishlumbra
    Vishlumbra Member Posts: 72

    I mention comp because it would be the standard on how to play the game to win. Therefore giving an insight on what is needed to do so considering the current state of the game.

    Forget about comp, imagine a regular match with good decent players. After the first chase, 2 or 3 of the objectives the killer needs to protect are gone, it doesn’t matter what he does. Again we are assuming survivors that are not messing around or clowning, they spawn and go into a gen, which is in most cases what happens. The player that went into chase is capable of dropping pallets, he is not a god of looping, just a normal player that is running windows of opportunity (most used perk in the game).

    Currently, for killers to win (unless they have incredibly strong abilities like nurse and the knowledge to actually use those abilities correctly) you depend on survivor choices to aim for the win. If people neglect the person on hook, they will finish the gens sacrificing 1 but winning the match.

    There is a reason why slow down perks are needed in most if not all killers and even with those, if you are playing a not so strong killer, you have to sacrifice fun perks or even a variety of perks to have a fighting chance. By design something is off.

    And for the 100th time, I don’t want buffs to either side, I want people to understand that the reason these strategies they consider toxic exist, is because of their own choices during games, not because one side is incredibly stronger than the other.

  • smurf
    smurf Member Posts: 276

    Here you said exactly the main point. 'By design, something is off.'

    Nobody is doing anything that justifies tunneling someone, with the exception of people taunting the killer. Tunneling is not fun for the targeted person in any way and prevents them from playing the game except to just be chased. That 'strategy' makes the experience bad for most players who get tunneled. If tunneling is actually needed to win matches, the game is designed in a way that encourages players to treat other players poorly.

  • hermitkermit
    hermitkermit Member Posts: 417

    Is your position that because tunneling and slugging is “required” in comp scenes (required is debatable but for the sake of trying to find common ground let’s say it is) that people need to stop “crying” about these tactics because they are “required” in comp and therefore nerfs are not needed or justified?

    You claim that because these tactics “need to exist for competitive play” that therefore casual players simply need to accept them and to have concerns or frustrations when facing competitive tactics in a casual setting is  unreasonable —But those that are engaging in competitive tactics against causal opponents in a casual setting are not unreasonable. I am struggling to follow this logic and I hope you can clarify it for me so that I can better understand your position.

  • Vishlumbra
    Vishlumbra Member Posts: 72
    edited November 8

    Those tactics are 99.9% of every competitive game, maybe that’s why it has never been that successful in a viewer / audience way.

    I am saying that just asking for nerfs to such tactics, without visiting the core design of the game, would destroy the killer experience, because there’s plenty of possibilities to win as it is for survivors. Killers are not created equal and you can’t expect everyone to always have the best possible experience while playing, if you die fast people will cry about it, if they wrecked the killer, they will say to fix the MMR or that it was boring as hell etc.

    I am saying that if we are suggesting eliminating current meta tactics for killers, we have to talk about creating a healthy balance and visit killers powers and current state of hooks, generators etc.

    I don’t think there’s a single killer main that sits at home trying to destroy the experience of survivors, they are forced to follow what’s proven to work in current state of the game.

  • Rulebreaker
    Rulebreaker Member Posts: 2,008

    A side note, if you don't quote people then you're effectively addressing the crowd. If you want to do so that's fine but it does make it hard to figure out what specifically your addressing.

    We do get matches against them but we're also aware that the first gen or two doesn't matter as much as the 4th and 5th. Especially depending on what gen got done and how many resources we burnt in that time. As a second aside, off meta things such as blindness aflictors can immediately change a survivors "skill".

    Currently, for killers to win

    This paragraph we just disagree with. We have managed to win in the past without the strategies with a variety of killers against all types of survivors. We (as a trio) may be a rusty knife now but if we bother to sharpen ourselves we can do it again. It's not impossible for killers to win without reporting to these, just harder. Same goes for the paragraph below it.

    And for the 100th time

    We don't think we (Rulebreaker) have said anything about you wanting to buff a side. What we have said is that your arguments are weak and not aimed at what you want.

  • smurf
    smurf Member Posts: 276

    I agree with a lot of this actually :)

    Having said that, I think player experience is the most important thing by far. Even more than balance, if people can have fun both winning and losing, that's what makes the game good.

    There might even need to be MMR dependent balancing. The game is very killer sided at low MMR, balances out in mid MMR ranges, and becomes somewhat survivor sided at higher MMR.

    Taking away tunneling and then buffing killers much could make the game unbearable for new players and DBD would eventually fade off into the fog because not enough new players join. But in principle, nerfing tunneling, camping, etc. and giving some small killer buffs in exchange should balance out by shifting killers not using those tactics to higher MMR.

    Maybe the lowest MMR can have a 'kiddy pool' set of mechanics where killers are slightly weaker, and everyone else sees a nerf to tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k along with a small increase in killer stats? I have a feeling my idea would go wrong still since matchmaking prioritizes speed in addition to MMR, but I'm just thinking 'out loud'.