Shoulder the Burden should lose it's downside
Shoulder the Burden, in theory, looks like a great new anti-tunneling perk. Of course base game mechanics to counter tunneling would be better, but it's still better than nothing.
However, with the current downside of getting exposed for 20 seconds after using the perk, I don't see this perk getting much value at all. That's because killers who tunnel generally also proxy camp, which means that the survivor unhooking with Shoulder of the Burden will instantly go down in most cases.
Let's say a survivor is on death hook, you weren't hooked once, and you have Shoulder the Burden. Using this perk on the hooked survivor will add a hook state to you and remove one from the survivor. Except now you will go down immediately because of the exposed effect, get hooked, and now you are on death hook instead of the survivor you unhooked. So now when you get unhooked, the killer will just tunnel you, and Shoulder the Burden did pretty much nothing. Fantastic.
In my opinion the perk does not need a downside at all, or at least not one as severe as the exposed effect. As long as the exposed status effect stays, the perk will be possibly only good for coordinated swf survivors against killers that don't really tunnel. And even that might be a stretch.
It absolutely needs to lose it's downside if this perk is supposed to be a good perk. Or at the very least have it exchanged for something much less severe.
Comments
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I disagree, because it's entirely possible to chain this effect, where each survivor can go in turn which buys another 70s on hook each time on top of the potential 140s the killer has already wasted.
You can combine this with Reassurance to make it REALLY punishing for the killer, and you can even use Camaradarie with it as an unironically good combo. You can even look at some Breakdown shenanigans to really mess the killer over.
If killers returns to hooks, they have the same things to fear as Borrowed Time, Decisive Strike, Off the Record if the unhooked player body blocks. A Killer that is determined to camp and tunnel has to be very afraid of thiese combo, because they can easily lose 3 or 4 gens from playing this way.
Survivors using this perk intelligently can really screw a killer over... of course it requires survivors to use the perk intelligently so it'll have issues in SoloQ, but you can't make the perk foolproof, otherwise it becomes busted.
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For example.... not being possible to stack this effect at the same survivor repeatedly?
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Then just don't use shoulder the burden if the killer is proxy camping. They'll have a better chance with the 10 seconds of endurance and the unhooker staying healthy. Better yet, don't unhook and just do gens for 70s.
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The perk is problematic because it hard counters all killer gameplay, not just tunneling. You can literally force killers to have to evenly spread out all hooks which is essentially a guaranteed killer loss unless the survivors are making serious mistakes.
Exception, nurse and blight. They are OP enough to overcome this. They both need a good nerfin'
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In theory I see your concern, having to 2-hook every survivor before getting a kill can often result in a loss, but I believe the coordination and time investment with Shoulder of the Burden to force the killer to hook everyone twice before getting a kill would balance this out. As far as I can tell, a 4-man swf would need the right survivor at the right place multiple times to pull this off. So I personally believe the perk won't become a problem in that regard, even if it lost it's downside.
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Doesn't require right place right time, at all. You just have everyone run the perk. Anyone can go for the save and can initiate the perk. The only people that can't use the perk are those already on death hook, but the chances of that happening is excessively low if everyone runs the perk unless the survivor team is genuinely not that great.
What's worst is that the only downside to this perk, the unhooker getting exposed, is that the ONLY way to take advantage of that downside as a killer is to face or proxy camp. That's right - we're actively encouraging even MORE killers to face or proxy camp just to TRY to counter the perk. That expose timer is VERY low, so only killers who are sticking around the hook would be able to effectively utilize the downside.
Not only is the perk game-breaking, it also actively encouraging hook camping.
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Why exactly people think it is anti-tunneling perk? There is no time limit. It's not like effect is ignored, if you don't tunnel as DS/OTR.
It works even better, if killer is not returning back, because then it has no downside. This perk would be kinda broken, if survivors could do it in front of you.
It doesn't need buff in general. All you need is make it easier to use for soloQ. It's definetly good enough to use for SWF already, no need for any buffs.
We really need to see other survivors perks already…1 -
I'm curious: Does Shoulder the Burden not work on transferred hook states? Like, you tried using the perk on someone who's current hook stage is transferred, but it ends up doing nothing?
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Quick reminder, because this seems to be getting lost in translation somewhere:
You don't need to 2-hook everyone, you need to 1-hook everyone. If someone with a hook state uses this perk, they put themselves on death hook, completely nullifying any purpose the perk might have.
Basically, if ALL survivors have the perk, the minimum number of hooks required before a kill becomes 6.
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Why exactly people think it is anti-tunneling perk?
Because shuffling hookstates around is only valuable if the killer is tunnelling, which means that if the killer isn't tunnelling, this perk's only effect is making you exposed.
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That's not really true. You can kill someone while a survivor was not hooked yet without actually tunneling.
If I am confident in my skills and most killers drop chases with me, this is a good way how to "take a chase" without actually wasting my time trying to bait the killer.
It doesn't matter at all if killer is tunneling, or not. Killers usually kill survivor sooner or later, doesn't matter how they did it. This perk let me give more time to more aggresive survivors, which would be often first to die.
The effect is not time limited. Survivor was on dead hook, now they are not. If killer is not returning to the hook, then it is best possible outcome.0 -
I'm sure you're only joking here, but in case someone takes it seriously, denying a kill is always valuable regardless of tunneling. If someone is hooked and doing their death checks, being able to unhook them and ensuring their safety of staying in the game the next time they get hooked (which could be between several other hooks, mind you) buys the survivors a LOT of time.
Three primary scenarios
- A killer who is generally focusing on two people. He'll eventually be able to eliminate a player by the middle of the match if "taking turns" between the two. This is literally not tunneling in any form or fashion. However, with the perk, you can spread out the hook states across ALL survivors where he'll at BEST get a kill during the last stage of the match - if that. Spreading out kills evenly across all survivors (which you can with a SWF all running it) generally will be a loss for a lot of killers (especially weaker m1 killers).
- It's near end of the match, and the killer has no kills. His ONLY hope is at least trying to get a kill so it's not a total bust. Here, he'd be trying to tunnel one player out, as it's his ONLY option. Once the exit gates are powered, he also has literally NO goal other than to try to eliminate a survivor by any means - that's why things like anti-face camp disables during this stage - tunneling is absolutely acceptable during this phase, as it's the only thing the killer CAN do to attempt his objective (to eliminate survivors). With the perk, you can literally make it impossible for the killer to accomplish this. If you have survivors with this perk who are not on death hook, the match is over - a 4 survivor out guarantee unless the survivors make some serious blunders. This perk alone in this situation just completely invalidates the killers objective. I think a single perk existing that essentially tells the killer he may as well go afk once the exit gates are powered is a bit silly.
- Let's just go with a normal match. There's no tunneling, but inevitably someone gets put on their death hook early or mid match. That's a LOT of pressure on survivors to ensure that survivor's safety. We're talking mandatory bodyblocking, saves, time off gens, and so on. With this perk, all of that gets deleted from the match. No one is in any danger of being eliminated until the later part of the match - and that's ENTIRELY in the power of the survivors to force that outcome. A single perk GUARANTEEING that no one is on death hook in the early or mid match is overpowering against most killers - especially the weaker m1 killers that are starting to become extinct.
What this perk does is STRONGLY give survivors the power consistently and reliably to have 4 survivors alive once the exit gates are powered. Having hook states spread out and preventing ANY deaths during the middle of the match is excessively strong.
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If I am confident in my skills and most killers drop chases with me, this is a good way how to "take a chase" without actually wasting my time trying to bait the killer.
So yeah, if the killer is tunnelling someone else, you can use this to slow it down.
It doesn't matter at all if killer is tunneling, or not.
No, it kinda does. Because this perk cannot be used for its intended purpose by anyone who has been hooked once, since using it at that point would put you on death hook, defeating the purpose.
If the killer is spreading hooks, this perk becomes significantly less likely to even fire. Anyone who wants to use this perk is incentivised to play cautious and defensive, because it disables after first hook.
A killer who is generally focusing on two people. He'll eventually be able to eliminate a player by the middle of the match if "taking turns" between the two. This is literally not tunneling in any form or fashion. However, with the perk, you can spread out the hook states across ALL survivors where he'll at BEST get a kill during the last stage of the match - if that. Spreading out kills evenly across all survivors (which you can with a SWF all running it) generally will be a loss for a lot of killers (especially weaker m1 killers).
First off, if you're specifically ignoring two survivors to only focus on the other two, it's still tunnelling. Not to the same extent as focusing on a single target, but it's still tunnelling. And since it's 'less' tunnelling than the 'race to 3-hook kill' tunnelling, the perk becomes proportionally worse, since it can now be used twice at max, instead of three times.
Secondly, that's not 'last stage of the match'. The latest this perk can push the kill mark is at six hooks. It can't push it back any further than that. That's not 'last stage'.
Third, killers can win perfectly fine with a decent spread, and they can certainly win just fine with a 'must hook everyone at least once first' stipulation.
It's near end of the match, and the killer has no kills. His ONLY hope is at least trying to get a kill so it's not a total bust. Here, he'd be trying to tunnel one player out, as it's his ONLY option. Once the exit gates are powered, he also has literally NO goal other than to try to eliminate a survivor by any means - that's why things like anti-face camp disables during this stage - tunneling is absolutely acceptable during this phase, as it's the only thing the killer CAN do to attempt his objective (to eliminate survivors). With the perk, you can literally make it impossible for the killer to accomplish this. If you have survivors with this perk who are not on death hook, the match is over - a 4 survivor out guarantee unless the survivors make some serious blunders. This perk alone in this situation just completely invalidates the killers objective. I think a single perk existing that essentially tells the killer he may as well go afk once the exit gates are powered is a bit silly.
If you don't have sufficient hook stages at this point, do you deserve the kill?
Let's just go with a normal match. There's no tunneling, but inevitably someone gets put on their death hook early or mid match. That's a LOT of pressure on survivors to ensure that survivor's safety. We're talking mandatory bodyblocking, saves, time off gens, and so on. With this perk, all of that gets deleted from the match. No one is in any danger of being eliminated until the later part of the match - and that's ENTIRELY in the power of the survivors to force that outcome. A single perk GUARANTEEING that no one is on death hook in the early or mid match is overpowering against most killers - especially the weaker m1 killers that are starting to become extinct.
I like that you mention 'saves' and 'time off gens' as if these are unique to this specific situation. This perk still requires people to go for the save. In fact, it puts an extra stipulation on it by making it the job of a specific person to go for that save. Claudette's right next to the hooked survivor, but Felix is the one with the perk, and he's on the other side of the map? Tough luck, Felix, you have to do a cross-country trek to get value from that perk.
And that specificity makes for powerful counterplay too. If you can take Felix into a chase before he can get to the hook, forcing someone else to unhook, that perk goes up in smoke.
Also also, it's not a single perk. It's three, minimum, if you want to push the needle all the way to 6 hooks. Before we get more of the same BS we got with Distortion, where it was somehow regarded as a full hard-counter and everyone talked about it as if one person bringing it blocked ALL aura reading.
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I have no strong opinion on the Exposed effect. I think there's the possibility it will discourage survivors from running the perk, though that may be a good thing as unskilled survivors running StB will just be making their own deaths quicker.
I do think killers need that survivor hook state counter, now. I mean, killers always needed it, but this perk creates a new necessity for it.
The information is needed so killers can make informed choices about what to do next. Yes, the survivor screams, alerting the killer the perk is in play. Maybe. Unless there are other scream perks in play. Like Scene Partner (I see SP a lot). Or the killer simply misses it because they're focused on something else. The killer should know that someone else now has the lost hook state, and the killer needs to choose who they go after. The survivor who took a hook state is possibly better in chase. Should the killer risk that or go back after the survivor they already know they can catch? Informed tactical decisions are important. Unless we really do want to see killers go "The hell with this" and just slug everyone to avoid the hassle.
There's also the annoying scenario for me and other killers like me who mostly double hook and let everyone go: not catching that someone used this perk and accidentally killing them. As is, without that counter, I consider it not my problem. Someone dies because they used that perk, that's on them, I already have trouble keeping track of what I do in the match, I can't keep track of what four other players do as well. But I do think the survivors who don't realize they're in one of those matches would rather not die unnecessarily because they're trying to be a good teammate.
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No, it kinda does. Because this perk cannot be used for its intended purpose by anyone who has been hooked once, since using it at that point would put you on death hook, defeating the purpose.
Somone has to be on dead hook first, right? If I managed to either hide, or abuse strong loops so killer never hooked me, that's when I can use the perk. Everyone else was hooked and someone got on dead hook. That's not tunneling.
Anyone who wants to use this perk is incentivised to play cautious and defensive, because it disables after first hook.
Sprint Burst will be very good with it. Most killers don't want to commit if they see you prerun with SB.
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I'm having a hard time figuring out life you're being facetious or not. You're saying that a killer who hooks someone then goes after someone ELSE ENTIRELY to hook them and them spotting the original person and going after them is tunneling? I'm not sure you're might not realize what tunneling is. Tunneling is singling one person out and ignoring all other players. Once they get unhooked, you again single them out and ignore all others.
If a killer hooks someone, and then they go after someone else after, beyond that, EVERYone else is on the menu regardless of past hooks for the next hook. You believe that the killer targeting anyone is called tunneling. No, that's literally the game. The killer has to pick SOMEone to go after. It's only tunneling if they pick out a single survivor and only focus on them. It's unrealistic to claim the killer is tunneling everyone they target someone who has a hook states at some point in the match. What, they should just stand afk once every survivor has a hook state?
Now that you're informed, reconsider your position, and we can continue. Otherwise, your basing your view of the scenarios on some incorrect assumptions which just chain reacts negatively on trying to discuss it. If we are discussing tunneling, you need to understand what it is. Otherwise, any discussions on the subject aren't going to be productive.
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Somone has to be on dead hook first, right? If I managed to either hide, or abuse strong loops so killer never hooked me, that's when I can use the perk. Everyone else was hooked and someone got on dead hook. That's not tunneling.
But at this point it's a strong chase being traded for a weak one, and it requires a lot of skill to pull off. (Plus likely other supplementary perks, since you can't hide in DBD anymore with all the aura reading being strewn about)
So I don't really see the problem.
Sprint Burst will be very good with it. Most killers don't want to commit if they see you prerun with SB.
That's still the killer ignoring you to focus on someone else.
You're saying that a killer who hooks someone then goes after someone ELSE ENTIRELY to hook them and them spotting the original person and going after them is tunneling?
I'm sure you were trying to write something else, because that description is the epitome of tunnelling.
Tunneling is singling one person out and ignoring all other players. Once they get unhooked, you again single them out and ignore all others.
Which is the exact same thought process that goes into splitting your attention between two survivors. And if you're fast enough, it won't even make any functional difference, either!
If your 'totally not tunnelling' has to start with a 'well, technically', it's not gonna save ya. But hey, if you're going to make the most begrudging compromise possible, so does the perk: Now it can only be used twice max, instead of three times!
You believe that the killer targeting anyone is called tunneling. No, that's literally the game. The killer has to pick SOMEone to go after.
And if this perk is in play, you may have to adjust your targeting accordingly, instead of just always automatically opting for the person with the most hooks. Your 'tunnel target', if you will.
What, they should just stand afk once every survivor has a hook state?
I like that you put this as some hyperbolic representation of demands when that is exactly when this perk gives you carte blanche. So you're literally presenting the argument as the opposite of what it is.
I would also like to remind everyone in this discussion of a little detail about Shoulder the Burden: It is a survivor perk. It is supposed to be beneficial to the survivors. I know that's not been the trend with a lot of survivor perk design lately, but ultimately, survivor perks are supposed to have a benefit to survivors.
If this were a basekit mechanism, we'd have reason to pick apart every possible scenario to try and devise some way in which the perk is helpful when the killer isn't tunnelling, but it's not. It's a perk. The perk is allowed to have value outside of tunnelling.
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If you think going for different people is tunneling, I don't know what to tell you. I have a hard time believing you're not just pulling my leg here, so I'm not going to continue the discussion here.
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That's still the killer ignoring you to focus on someone else.
Yeah and this perk makes it not an issue for me. Otherwise I have to go for bodyblocks, or bait killer to chase me.
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