Visit the Kill Switch Master List for more information on these and other current known issues: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/299-kill-switch-master-list
We encourage you to be as honest as possible in letting us know how you feel about the game. The information and answers provided are anonymous, not shared with any third-party, and will not be used for purposes other than survey analysis.
Access the survey HERE!
Basekit Unbreakable
This needs to be in the game. Slugging, while fair and acceptable in certain situations, is not in many others. I believe that unbreakable should be basekit, not the recovery speed but the picking yourself up part. I will go through various slugging situations and discuss potential counter play from the killer side.
Last 2 survivors:
Slugging for the 4k is a valid strategy, however there is literally nothing that the last survivor can do in that situation, their skill is irrelevant because unless they can run the killer until the other survivor bleeds out AND find hatch first, they're dead either way. In this situation if the killer want's to avoid unbreakable, they just hook the survivor and then it's a hatch race, where the last survivor can escape if they are skilled enough.
4 Man slug:
Basekit unbreakable removes the 4 man slug which is pretty much an absolute win.
Snowballing (Slugging for power value):
This is probably the biggest grey area, as with the current recovery speed it may not be possible to get 2 downs and hook the survivors. For this reason, making the recovery time longer may be a good idea.
Sabotage:
The killer can drop the survivor and go for some one else, the slugged survivor is still incapacitated and cannot work on gens.
Slugging for the Mori:
Slugging in this situation is valid, potentially make it so that hooked survivor in struggle state instantly dies when the other survivors remain to avoid slugging in this situation.
SWF:
Many killer mains probably think that basekit unbreakable is too strong because it will be abused by SWF. I really don't see the argument, most sweaty SWF already bring Unbreakable so they are already making use of it. And if you are really insistent on not buffing SWF, just disable it when its a 4 man SWF.
From the survivor side, slugging is not fun, you are basically just waiting with nothing to do until you either get picked up by someone else or hooked.
Another thing I would like to bring up is the "Bleed Out" button argument. This is a bad idea. This would just reinforce and exacerbate the issues that slugging already creates, this would make an unfun strategy part of the encouraged gameplay.
Furthermore toxic metas like 4 man slugging really ruin the game as a survivor. Especially solo queue. This change shouldn't really change how the game is played. Killers who are skilled enough to get a 4k, don't need to slug extensively for it. They only slug when it makes sense, these changes largely don't effect this.
Comments
-
I think bHVR is cooking something, you see the great response to 2v8 which has such a mechanic.
0 -
Stupid idea that people who don't play killer (or play killer in low MMR) say because they don't realize how much that would break the game.
Slugging is something that has to be done sometimes. Same with tunneling and camping. Sometimes you have to do these things if you wanna win.
Anyone who plays killer in high MMR knows this.
Casual players live in a fantasy world where they tell themselves "only trash killers tunnel😡" etc. When in reality it's just a part of the game. As killer, you have to do these things sometimes, unless you're okay with losing most of your games.
Guess what though? Don't like being slugged? There's perks for that. Don't like being tunneled? There's perks for that.
15 -
I think the only acceptable situation is when there’s only two survivors. Imagine being downed in a pallet, killers can’t do nothing because there’s other survivors around to pallet save and distract the killer, meanwhile the downed survivor can get up
1 -
There ya go, this is proof enough of how egregious basekit Unbreakable is. That horrible PTB was just painful.
Keep in mind that back then, sabo was slower and HUD gave less info. It would be even worse nowadays.
If any kind of "solution" is made, then it must only come into effect in extreme cases (team-slugging, slugging for the 4k etc.). But slugging itself shouldn't become impossible. The Finisher Mori (as it is now) only makes the problem worse but could be easily tweaked to help somewhat reduce slugging for the 4k.
8 -
Tunneling and camping do not have to be done. I 'win' most of my killer matches and don't camp or tunnel.
And if you're thinking that I must be low MMR because that can't be, there are also streamers presumably better than me who dominate every match as killer. The matchmaking is designed so the killer should be getting 3k or higher more than they get 1k or 0k. This need for tunneling and camping is a myth.
Also, tunneling and camping are objectively hostile toward the targeted player since they keep them from participating in the game except to be chased non-stop. It can make people wonder why they even play the game. These tactics are unnecessary, 'bad manners' toward their targets, and if done efficiently can put people at MMR higher than is appropriate for their skill level. When that happens, it often leads people to believe these tactics are necessary.
4 -
Basekit unbreakable could not come soon enough. I had a match today where a streamer, not gonna say who because I dont want them to get any more viewers, was playing specifically to slug and bleed people out and a build to maximize it. Three people bled out on the ground and the last was moried. The dude in his stream was doing it specifically to be toxic and was making bets with his chat to see who would DC.
Outisde of that. Everyone huntress match I get there are usually two on the ground at a time. Its rare that I dont get a match without someone being slugged. I miss 2v8 so much.
1 -
I'll cashapp you $100 if you can win 10 games in a row as Ghostface without tunneling
8 -
DELETED
0 -
I know four people who refuse to play the game because of that. And several others who refuse to even give it a try because of it. Adding onto what you said about the tunneling and camping requirement myth. It is just that….a myth. If they need to use cheap tactics to secure a win then they are artificially inflating their mmr above their skill set, which traps them in that "necessary tunnel and camp" mentality. Take the L, naturally go to an mmr where you belong. I promise you do not get fancy rewards or street cred for winning in a video game without leader boards.
3 -
10 games in a row shouldn't be possible in most cases with most killers. If you use tunneling and get 10 wins in a row with Ghostie, it kinda proves the point that tunneling is unreasonable.
Edit: changed typo that said '10 kills in a row' to '10 wins in a row'.
Post edited by smurf on1 -
Back on that PTB, the actual basekit effect wasn't all that bad. The problem that PTB had was the things that orbited the basekit effect, like making Unbreakable (the perk) completely overpowered and somewhat-unrelated things like the generally unpopular older version of the Finishing Mori removing moris from perks and turning all mori offerings into BP offerings.
The basekit version of this effect took 45 seconds, which was honestly pretty reasonable. That PTB was not pleasant, but it doesn't necessarily mean the idea of a basekit Unbreakable is completely unworkable— just that the implementation they went with first had major flaws.
1 -
Exactly. The goal (or at least the devs' goal) is for Killers to get 60% kills, not 100%.
5 -
It wasn't just that.
While it's true that the og Finisher Mori & offering/perk changes were also disgusting (I still can't believe they still, mostly, went ahead with the Finisher Mori despite so many people despising it and predicting that it would make slugging for the 4k worse, the current situation proving those fears true) the core problem was how it created countless lose-lose scenarios and annoying situations and how it really didn't really fix any issue without creating another in it's place.
People would still try to slug for the 4k but they would alternate between downing the last 2 Survivors again and again (since they would keep getting up in record time thanks to various perks, not just Unbreakable) and endgame bleedouts would not only still exists but would be even longer and still boring since what hope can 2 Survivors have of finishing 2+gens on their own? So many of my games in that dreadful PTB ended with one Survivor hiding in a corner while dropping/picking up item so his teammate would keep getting up because the Killer couldn't find him, these stupid stalemates could go on for 15+ minutes!
This also turned the gap between SWF and SoloQ into an ocean. SWF could create countless lose-lose scenarios (the most common was hovering around a downed Survivor so that if the Killer picked up he would get blinded/pallet stunned but if he chased the rescuer away then the slug could repeatedly get up and leave, no need for Power Struggle & Flip-Flop to create situations like that now, where the Killer can simply leave the slug there; it's likely not going anywhere anytime soon and a 3rd Survivor will have to leave gens to pick them up since a potential Unbreakable only works once). Those situations, which were common against decent Survivors and/or SWF, were just discouraging and nuked the fun out of the game.
BHVR, rightfully so, has shown (through HUD/perk updates and said so in a past livestream sometime around the 6.5.0 update) that they want to try to bridge the gap between SWF and SoloQ because they know (they hear and see enough) that SoloQ is often a miserable experience. Basekit Unbreakable made the difference far worse.
Basekit Unbreakable was poison for the game, even worse than the annoying Finisher Mori we got now (which could easily be tweaked to be a healthy thing), and it can't come to the base game, imagine being a newcomer (or just any average player) and having to deal with 15+ minutes of constant slugging just as often as slugging for the 4k was before.
No, if a solution is to be made then it simply can't remove slugging entirely. A "bleedout button" is honestly a decent idea if it's implemented correctly, although a slight modification to the current Finisher Mori would also help a bit and be less of a (potential) tool to go next.
3 -
To be fair, those stalemates you're describing only happen if the killer actually tries to slug for the 4K, all they'd need to do is just pick up the survivor they'd downed and hook them to avoid it. I get that it'd be annoying from the survivor side if that happens, but there are ways around that if you're in that position. Delay your own pickup until the killer finds your teammate, or just run at them if you're the one not on the ground so your teammate can pick themselves up and find hatch, etcetera.
As for the whole situation of someone being downed under a pallet, what you're describing was only a problem because of the perks, like I said in my post. 45 seconds is enough time to chase someone away and potentially even secure a down on them, and even if it isn't, you've kept someone off generators for a pretty reasonable amount of time in the worst case scenario here.
Obviously, there are going to be scenarios where the killer would get less out of slugging if there were a basekit pick-up system in place, but that's both kinda the point and also not enough to lose them games if the system is implemented properly. If someone goes down under a pallet and their teammate is lingering around, you still get value out of that situation by slugging them, and that's still something you can leverage if you're playing well. Similarly, if you're just trying to slug to capitalise on someone being nearby in general, 45 seconds is plenty of time. Basekit Unbreakable doesn't remove slugging, not even a little bit, it just makes it something you think slightly harder before doing because you'd have a guaranteed time limit to get value instead of a nebulous one.
That PTB wasn't fun for a variety of factors, not just the basic premise of a survivor being able to pick themselves up off the ground.
0 -
I don’t mind it but only under 1 condition.
All survivors must be slugged in order to use it.2 -
If you actually read my post you can see that I literally agree with you
0 -
I did say in my post that potentially disabling or limiting this for 4 man SWF could be a balancing factor.
Furthermore I don't think disregarding an idea because it has issues is a good standard to set. Coming up with solutions rather than abandoning ideas is what the game needs right now.
0 -
Neither Survivors nor Killers are supposed to win 100% of their games. Furthermore Ghostface is one of the weaker killers, in my opinion, well designed killers shouldn't really need to slug, tunnel or camp to win their games. Unfortunately there are many killers that aren't designed well.
0 -
no. We don't need another basekit handholding mechanic. Basekit UB already proved to be way too strong of a feature to ever be implemented, and if you finish in a 4-men slug situation, don't blame the killer, blame either matchmaking if in soloQ or yourself and your team for misplaying heavily.
Only feature we need is give up vote or faster bleedout (hatch rework in case of slugging for 4K)
4 -
I Hope you know this would encourage toxic behavior right? Majority of survivors I encounter, I have to slug bc all/Majority of them would body block, flash and stun constantly so much so its pointless to continue, some rounds I've seen killers give up entirely bc ofmy survivors random teammates for doing exactly this, because their skill gap from the Killer is so vast that it discourages people from having fun as killer, and this may just cause the toxicity in survivors to worsen, ik there's plenty of killers only do it to toxic players or as a last resort, and others do it bc they are tired of toxic survivors (or do it bc they AREone of the toxic survivors), adding this would just make the game survivor orientated again. If this does become a thing, it should only allow 1 unbreakable per survivor while granting endurance and haste (like an unhook situation) but even so, I still think it's a terrible ide
2 -
tl;dr Reward hooking instead of punishing slugging. Address slugging where it's problematic, don't slap a bandaid basekit UB on it.
"Problematic" slugging isn't that common, and it usually happens to counter survivor actions like sabo or is enabled by perks like knockout or killers like billy, twins and singularity. The issue is there is often little incentive to hook but many incentives to slug. Hooking
- risks BGP flashbang/pallet saves, sabo, flip flop power struggle etc to deny my hooks
- gives survivors access to a lot of insane perks like Deli, OTR, DS, DH, Resurgence, Shoulder the Burden, We'll Make it, Reassurance/Cama to name a few
- makes me deal with anti-camp, whereas I can just freely protect slugs
- makes me spend time hooking that I could just be moving onto my next chase
Slugging counters the above. I might see unbreakable, wglf and exponential, but that's the tradeoff of often deleting over half of the survivors' hook perks perks in the match. Without hooking, chases are a lot faster so the need for gen regression goes down so the killer can stack info/slugging perks. (nerf knockout bhvr!!!)
Instead of basekit UB to punish slugging which you often have no choice about, incentivise hooking, including something like:
- Basekit mini pop, 10% total gen kick after hooking
- Buff hooking perks.
- Nerf the anti face camp mechanic. Remove it in the 2v1. (in this scenario, specifically address killers who are good at camping like huntress and bubba)
- Restructuring sacrifice bloodpoints so you can actually get 10k points without late game hooks, and give a lot of points like ~1500 BPs for fresh hooks to reward splitting pressure.
Certain killers and perks make slugging too strong — you need to nerf their slugging potential without hurting their chase (counterbuff chase when necessary), examples include billy, twins, and singularity.
- Nerf knockout - BHVR if you're reading this nerf knockout. I know it has a low pickrate but it's a fundamentally unfun perk that punishes solo queue.
- Singularity - survivors should immediately lose slipstream when downed
- Billy - chainsawing a survivor should put Billy's overdrive on cooldown for ~30 seconds or until he hooks, and if necessary give overdrive charges when hooking
- Twins - tbh I don't know, maybe to start make Victor not give killer instinct when near a slug to make protecting slugs harder and bring back giving Charlotte haste after Victor downing a surv but make it stop when she starts chase with a survivor.
On slugging for the 4k — I usually hook unless I know where the 4th is but when I do I have to deal with anti-camp. I can't camp and if I try to find the 4th they can sneak in for the unhook. Especially if there are multiple gens left, this drags out the game even after the survivors have lost so why shouldn't I just always slug for the 4k?
So yeah, instead of adding a punishment in the form of basekit unbreakable how about just address slugging where it's actually problematic and reward hooking more.
Also - camping, tunnelling and slugging are just tactics. They're not bad manners, cheap or unreasonable. They're just methods to win the game that have their times when they are strongest. The reality is that
2v8 caging mechanic is not the solution either - that completely eliminates all strategy of survivors choosing where to die. Imagine ARP with a 3 gen at main. Survivors should take chases to shack but 2v8 caging will send them back to the 3 gen. That encourages dying in the 3 gen (terrible macro) which just encourages slugging because the 3 gen is right there to protect.
4 -
Nope SWF exist
4 -
is there a way to upvote this multiple times?
This literally sums up the core problem of slugging in this game.
Buffing anti-slug perks is not a solution, this will just rebound into anti-tunneling perks being used less often → tunneling meta all over again because spreading hook is also discouraged heavily.
Basekit UB is literally the worst way to deal with this problem and is nothing but free perk slot for a meta perk that can be abused by skilled players.
3 -
I don't really get your argument, like matchmaking is bad so excessive slugging is required? If a killer manages to get more than 2 survivors down and they know that there isn't anyone who could save (flashlight, stun, flashbang and so on) there is no reason why they shouldn't hook the downed survivors. If you read my post you would see that I actually say that I think extending the timer for recovery is probably a good idea to allow for optimal power usage while still giving survivors options.
Furthermore, a lot of toxic groups already all run UB anyway, they are already getting this value.
I agree with the concept of giving more incentives to hooking survivors instead of slugging, however I fail to see how many of your suggested changes would address this. Giving mini pop may be a good idea as it is an instant available reward for hooking. Furthermore, I don't really see how basekit UB would be a punishment for killers.
The intended killer playstyle is that even if survivors are downed for a short period of time they are still eventually picked up and are hooked so the match progresses. Following my idea that the recovery time is increased to allow for killers to get decent use out of their powers, this wouldn't really effect how killers who don't excessively slug play the game. Furthermore disabling this feature in games with 4 man SWF (potentially 3 man too) would remove chances of it being abused.
The main situation that needs to be removed (in my opinion) is 4 man slugging, at least in non 4 man SWF scenarios. I've had a few games over the past week where this happens and I literally just have to get up and do something else while everyone bleeds out.
Potentially a better idea is giving everyone a chance to pick them selves up when everyone is down, i.e- a token system, once you have picked yourself up or are picked up the token is removed, and everyone has to go down again for them to be regained. This still provides the disincentive for 4 man slugging while giving killers the ability to snowball, furthermore it removes any potential abuse.
0 -
I should have been clearer — I wasn't sure how you would add more incentives (or rewards) for hooking, just that it would help, and the ideas were just ideas to start. That said, "buff hooking perks" does a lot of heavy lifting, but one example is to buff pain res back to 25% (but deactivate it when a survivor dies). The issue I experience now is there are so many obstacles to hooking but little incentive to do so when I could just move onto my next chase instantly. It's viable on not just S tiers, but weak killers like clown.
Basekit UB is a really artificial way of nerfing slugging that punishes killers for slugging (in contrast to rewarding hooking), just like anti-camp artificially counters face camping without addressing strong campers like huntress.
My biggest issue with basekit UB is that you can force the killer to slug - bgp pallet saves, flashbang/flashlights (with the save buffer), breakdown and dying corner, and flip flop power struggle all force the killer to slug. Remember when hooks didn't respawn? It would create hook deadzones where survs dying corner would force the killer to slug. Basekit UB in all of these situations creates a lose-lose situation where no matter what, the killer cannot win and is punished for… succeeding in a chase and daring to hook as intended.
Imagine your first down - you pick up Mikaela, and Ace runs up with BGP to sabo your hook at 100% speed. Do you try to go to another hook? No you drop the Mikaela and chase the Ace - notice dropping gives Mikaela 20% extra wiggle and makes hooking her impossible, at which point basekit UB punishes you by her getting up for free while her teammates do gens. It doesn't matter that Ace had to be off gens to do this, hooking also forces a surv off a gen and this also delays that first hook.
You say hooking is intended gameplay (and I agree) but without basekit UB, tell me why I shouldn't just swap out Pain Res/Pop/Grim/DMS/GOP for perks like infectious and eruption and just immediately start chasing the next closest survivor? Remember I'm not wasting time hooking, I'm deleting most of the meta surv perks, flashlights do nothing and a survivor still has to get off a gen to pick them up. I remember one game I 4 man slugged but the time I humoured them and hooked someone, I immediately got hit by OTR. The game encourages slugging, and basekit UB would artificially "solve" it at the cost of punishing killers without actually addressing why slugging might be too strong or incentivised over hooking.
You also can't disable features for people playing in SWFs, that's punishing people for playing with their friends. Instead focus on features that bring solo queue players up to SWF level.
I want BHVR to actually try limiting slugging where it's problematic (knock out, billy, twins, singularity) without interrupting intended play and see if further changes are necessary once those changes go live. I really do think with those changes slugging becomes a lot less problematic. In my too many hours playing the game, I haven't found 4 man slugging that common - I mostly only see it and find it hard to counter if knock out is in play or it's a killer who's good at slugging (billy, twins, singularity). Address them and you deal with a lot of the issue. In cases where that fails, you can also provide a give up option, for example slugged survivors could choose to bleed out faster.
2 -
I agree with you now, but do still think that some slugging situations need to be addressed, specifically 4 man slug.
To be clear in my op im talking from a solo q perspective, after looking into how powerful basekit UB could be in SWF I now believe it could be abused. From a solo q perspective I think it could be balanced but disabling game aspects depending on SWF would be bad design. Not sure if you read my new idea but I think it would be a lot better.
Basically you get a "pick up Token". When every living survivor is downed everyone gets one token, this token is removed if they are picked up (not by killer) by any means. Basically if 3 survivors are down, they cannot pick themselves up. Only if the killer (not things like plot twist) downs the 4th survivor does everyone get a token that can be used to pick themselves up. This solely discourages the most unfun parts of slugging while still allowing for full use of power, and cannot be abused by SWF unless the killer purposely downs the last survivor. To clarify, survivors still have to fully recover, there wouldn't be a button to instantly pick yourself up with no progress. It would just allow the bar to be fully filled by yourself. For example if the killer gets all 4 people down instantly its basically still a game over.
0 -
I think this could actually work.
Maybe to be really safe, maybe a survivor can only pick themselves up if on top of your token + fully recovered they've also been slugged for at least 60 seconds.
This is my bias here, but I think maybe give a 5-10 second buffer after the 4th down so people who are just 4 man slugging then immediately hooking can still do that.
A survivor could even recharge their token if everyone gets slugged for a further 60 seconds, but not sure of the specifics.
0 -
"From the survivor side, slugging is not fun, you are basically just waiting with nothing to do until you either get picked up by someone else or hooked."
Gens flying is equally unfun from the killer side, but the reason for insanely fast gen speed being possible is BECAUSE the killer can knock everybody down for the win.
The killer being able to "slug" everybody is also the reason that pallets and windows connect so easily as well as the reason for the existence of "god-loops."
Going for 12 individual hooks was a trend that was started by streamers and frankly, was only done in the name of building popularity and painting themselves as being "the cool kid."
3 -
True we need that, 2v8 was much better with basekit breaks
0 -
I never stated that genrushing wasn't an unfun experience for the killer. In fact I think it's pretty problematic against killers that don't have much map pressure capabilities (Myers, GF and other low mob killers). However one unfun mechanic doesn't justify another's existence. I think this is a really negative way to view game balance. If the game is technically "balanced" but there's no enjoyment in playing the game, then what's the point.
Furthermore not every map has "god-loops", or might not have many loops that do chain well. Granted, I don't really see how this relates to problematic slugging.
Again, I never said anything about getting 12 individual hooks. Personally I think that problematic tunnelling has largely been solved with off-hook endurance. However there are situations where going for a survivor who is on death hook rather than one who is not is a valid strategy. Even still, I don't see how this relates to problematic slugging.
I'm not sure if you read any of the more recent posts but I having done a bit more research I believe that direct basekit UB would actually be too strong. Most likely not in Solo Q but it could be abused by SWF, furthermore disabling game elements because of SWF would just be bad design.
For this reason I suggested a token system for being able to pick yourself up. Basically it would work like this.
If every living survivor goes down (by direct means of the killer, not something like plot twist), then everyone who is currently slugged gets one token, this token can be used to fully recover from the dying state. For this token to be used you have to fully recover, you can't just press a button to pick yourself up instantly. When you pick yourself up, or are picked up by another survivor, your token is consumed.
Furthermore combining this with more basekit hook related incentives like a mini basekit pop (maybe 10% ish idk) would strongly incentivise taking hooks over 4 man slugging. As the killer can decide whether they down the last survivor, they have the control, meaning it would be difficult to abuse by SWF.0
