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No revert to Hellfire's CD for Dracula?
I'm honestly really confused by this. Almost everyone from what I've seen wants that change to happen to most. Admittedly Medusa Hair needed a nerf because it was a ridiculous add-on (so does Lapis Lazuli to be honest) but I'm really surprised and honestly a little upset that hellfire didn't get the revert that it deserves.
Comments
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As far as I know Dracula is still a really good killer despite the CD nerf so while people may have wanted it reverted, there wasn't much warrant for it. It was a pretty spam happy ability to begin with so players should be more skillful when using it while also feeling more rewarding for survivors to dodge it. That or more punishing if it's the killers fault.
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He's still good yeah but he just feels clunky and bad. There was literally nothing wrong with Hellfire. It's always been Bat form. It's just an unneeded change.
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Hellfire was decent before, no nerf needed. Other killers can just spam their M2 while Drac had to change forms because it had a 6 second CD.
Wolf form was buffed in the wrong way. He needs better tracking tools, not better Pounce. The orb increased rate doesnt do anything to locate survivors if they dont drop orbs while standing/walking. Once you are in chase most of the tracking is useless.
I would be fine with Wolf M2 being worse than Dracula, as long as he has the tracking tools when they are actually needed: outside the chase.
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I was just about to make thread on this but luckily you made one. BVHR correctly nerfing Medusa hair, an overperforming add-on on dracula but than doesn't revert Hellfire change which was unnecessary change.
I would be fine with Wolf M2 being worse than Dracula, as long as he has the tracking tools when they are actually needed: outside the chase.
I agree. i think wolf tracking form still needs buffs WITHOUT nerfs. He should be able to see orbs in like 16 meter radius(Grey add-on adjusted to 75% increase) and scent orb should spawn at all times if no orb is on top of the survivor in said radius.
The other part i am upset about is how BVHR nerfing a strong add-on but they don't buff any of his bad add-on. Like what the heck is up with iri add-on. These iri add-on are complete jokes. Like maybe Instead of having -1 pillar on his iri for hellfire, put +1 pillar and than other add-on is like hellfire at exit gates. this is not a iri add-on. downgrade this add-on to purple and take Warg Fang and make an iri add-on that has additional effect of reducing his wolf missed & successful attack cooldown by 25%.
So it gives you stbfl+Unrelenting for wolf+Aura reading on the dog. Double iri would buff his hellfire+Dog so they're now actual good iri add-on rather than total jokes.
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Hellfire was far too spammable. It needed a cooldown nerf.
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I…dont understand how a 7 seconds CD ranged M2 is "spammable" when other killers have a literally 0 seconds CD ranged M2.
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Mainly because Hellfire ignores practically every obstacle in the game, and is very easy to walk people down with since he does not slow down significantly while charging it. He also has a large variety of other tools at his disposal, when a lot of other killers with ranged attacks do not.
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Interesting that you mention the "ignores practically every obstacle in the game", while the ability itself is hindered by not ignoring high obstacles.
Huntress, Pyramid Head, Nemesis (post buff) are some examples of killers having better ranged M2 than Dracula while they have 0 second CD. Even counting the huntress recharge mechanic or Nemesis 3 hit, they are easier to hit. Which is fine as Dracula as you say have other forms and other abilities, but Hellfire was far, far from "spammable".
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They give him a very tiny worthless buff to Wolf then nerf another ability that didn't need any changes at all.
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Hellfire is far from spam-able even when it had a 7 second cooldown. It has an incredibly long ready time of 0.7 seconds, the longest of any mid-range attack compared to the other killers, he has a fairly decent slow down while he has it channeled to where he loses distance AND eats another hefty slowdown for putting it away to prevent zoning problems that are as awful as something like what Nemesis does. Hellfire is a strong tool, it is. But it has limitations that other powers simply do not.
Hellfire doesn't have the dragging hitbox that Nemesis has with his tentacle, nor can it break pallets/walls. Most of what Hellfire can hit over, so can tentacle strike. Tentacle strike has no cooldown whatsoever. Tentacle Strike can go over small gaps, Hellfire cannot. Tentacle strike has a faster ready time, Nemesis in T3 moves survivor running speed, and a less punishing cancel. This is easily the second best mid range attack in the game imo.
Punishment of the Damned goes through any and ALL obstacles in the game. It can do everything Hellfire can tenfold. While it takes charge out of Rites, there is no innate cooldown to it so it can be fully spammed as long as you aren't holding rites for a really long time. POTD is also wider, has a shorter ready animation, lets Pyramid Head move at 110% while channeling, and has an almost non-existent cancel. This is still the best mid range attack in the game imo. The only limitations POTD has is that it can't go up inclines or stairs (yet in certain instances ignores them and hits people anyways) and that it can't go over gaps. While Hellfire can go up stairs and inclines, it also cannot go over gaps.
Artist has 3 birds that all have the same range as Hellfire, yet remain stationary and effectively completely shut down a loop she places them at. She loses almost no distance for placing or firing them. Outside of the initial bird range where they turn into flocks they also go through every obstacle in the map along with ignoring gaps and have effectively infinite range, meaning Artist can in theory hit you from anywhere in the map. Hellfire can't do any of these things.
I could continue, but I feel like I've made my point. Hellfire is strong but other mid ranged attacks are simply stronger. I would say that Demo's shred is worse and MAYBE Vecna's Flight Of The Damned but overall I genuinely personally believe that other mid range attacks are better. They have been and imo, should stay that way. Hellfire shouldn't be as strong as these other attacks because like you said, he has a variety of other tools in his kit. But when those other tools are
A. A lackluster Wolf form that fails as a tracking ability and is just a much more limited Wesker dash that is far worse.
B. A map traversal form where he can't see survivors or auras and only scratch marks.
That paints a pretty grim picture. Because as it stands right now, his kit is
- A janky, painfully clunky and slow feeling mid range attack that feels bad to use.
- A mid ranged dash/tracking tool that is painfully lackluster and neglected by most players.
- A fast moving mobility form that lets him Spirit mode on top of people and score a free M1.
People aren't going to want to use Hellfire OR Wolf Form because they feel bad or are bad. The problem with Dracula was NEVER Hellfire. It's always been Bat form and some add-ons (which again, the Medusa Hair nerf was 100% deserved). So instead of making other forms worse, why not address the actual problem in the room? Being Bat form? This nerf is something I'm against because it incentivizes the easiest and most unfun way to play him. Nobody enjoys him instantly dropping on you and scoring a free hit. You can dodge a Hellfire, you can't dodge him literally appearing on top of you to smack you for a free health state. This nerf pushes people towards this playstyle MORE, which nobody should want.3 -
Fully agreed that the nerf to Hellfire's base cooldown should be reverted.
There was absolutely nothing spammable - aka too frequently usable, about an ability that needs 7 seconds to recharge.
What did make it spammable, as I and others have pointed out before, was the addon combo of Sylph Feather at max stacks + Ruby Circlet, which combined led to a cooldown of about 4.8s.
Sylph Feather is the primary culprit here, and if Medusa's Hair can get a number adjustment as it did, so could that addon be addressed and the cooldown nerf reverted. Something as simple as reducing the percentage per stack, or making its effect a static percentage, is sufficient.1 -
Was anyone even using the double cooldown Hellfire add-ons when the Bat Form add-ons are literally 10x better, especially when Hellfire cooldown used to be already pretty low at 7 seconds ? Maybe now at 10 seconds cooldown I can see the point in using them, but the add-ons related to Bat Form are still clearly superior.
Also Sylph Feather should definitely just be a flat percentage, needing to get stacks just for lower Hellfire cooldown just seems extra and unnecessary.
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Indeed they did. The combo as I said took the cooldown to about 4.8s, and factoring in the part that it starts early in the recovery animation after casting Hellfire, it led to people literally going around loops like moving Hellfire turrets.
Also, the various leaderboards that track player stats like Hellfire hits made it popular among players that wanted to grind "#1 Dracula on X" spots, which I suspect is another source that made people believe it was "spammable". The reduction compared to basekit was notable.
But no, I am sorry, 7 seconds cooldown for an ability is not low. 7s is a sweet-spot that makes a Dracula player be careful enough as to how and where to use it, and still long enough to make the player consider switching to Wolf form if it misses. However with the nerf, holding Hellfire for zoning became way more common due to the potential time waste of missing it, which feels very limiting.Again, I think addons that affect power cooldowns (and power startups - as a Billy player that went through the 2019 tragedy) in general are culprits for a lot of misconceived notions about how readily available Killer powers really are, and lead to unwarranted basekit nerfs.
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Nah to me the 7 seconds cooldown indeed felt low, even on a miss I didn't really felt all that punished as almost always the cooldown would be up by the time I'd get in a position where I'd try to hit the survivor again with it, which is why I thought that before the nerf the Hellfire cooldown add-ons were unnecessary and never used them (and personally I don't recall ever going against a double Hellfire cooldown add-ons Dracula, pretty sure I even saw more Wolf form double add-ons than this).
Granted my other 2 mains are Spirit and Unknown whom have much harsher and punishing cooldowns on their powers than this, so I guess that's probably why I never faced any issue managing Dracula's cooldowns.
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Just a friendly bit of info that relates to this topic, don't stack Hellfire CD add-ons if you want to play Dracula with a non-repugnant feeling cooldown for hellfire. Run one or the other.
Part of me gets the feeling that Ruby Circlet is going to be akin to a new combat straps. IE The killer feels so good with it that running it without it just feels abysmal. Sucks that if you really really like Hellfire like me that you need to run an add-on for it, but that's how it is in DbD sometimes.
Still, I'm hoping for a revert next bugfix or maybe midchapter.2 -
Hellfire is alredy more situational than xenos tail/nemisis whip/huntress hatchet, with those ud just spam em whenever you get a clear shot but draculas requires the survivor to be in a specific situation like pyramid head. And pyramid heads is faster to charge, farther to shoot, goes through anything, and has twice the width, with a faster cooldown lol. The hellfire really doesnt need to be so slow.
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About stacking both addons, may i ask why not tho? Some months ago its true that trying to stack both of them was bugged and it actually did increase the CD instead of reducing it, but that was fixed and you can stack them nicely now.
Or maybe you mean that its better to use one of them and then just using another addon because you get diminishing returns if you use both?
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I can't upload the videos directly but from testing and going over footage the numbers are as follows
JUST Ruby Circlet - 9 seconds.
JUST Sylph Feather at 5 stacks - 8 seconds.
Both together w Sylph Feather at 5 stacks - 7 seconds.
While you can run both if you NEED that 7 second long cooldown back imo having to equip two add-ons to fix his CD isn't worth it as Sylph Feather does most of the heavy lifting and can be supplemented with a better add-on entirely (Magical Ticket, Winged Boots, and Force Of Echo are all solid picks imo).
Ofc it should be worth mentioning that Sylph Feather has to be built towards by breaking pallets and Ruby Circlet is just a permanent boost. So there is more a debate there. I don't typically use add-ons in all honesty, I try them out when a killer is released and if they're changed but for the most part they rot in my inventory so maybe I'm looking at it with a mindset that most people who do use add-ons don't.
It's just something I personally recommend against, I could very much be wrong though. A second can make or break a chase and decide a hit sometimes.0 -
in some ways, force of echo+sylph feather is dracula's new best add-on's. ideally, a killer's base-kit should not need add-on and add-on should be like an optional base-kit improvement to put spin to their gameplay but i guess it's alright that dracula is add-on dependant as many other killer are add-on dependant. As long as Dracula doesn't receive Chucky-level negative changes, I'm happy with his current state.
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I feel like Dracula is a bit different considering that without Hellfire CD addons he just feels really bad and clunky. It's less a matter of strength and more just how he feels. He's still fairly strong and I have over 600 Slyph feathers, so I can easily run one every match. It just sucks that I have to in order to play him in a more fluid way.
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