Can't take the tunnelers.

Swf is definitely a problem, a well coordinated team that knows what perks each are bringing, knows how to compliment eachothers build and communicate makes it very difficult for any killer to go against. Unfortunately the game seems balanced around swf so soloq get the brunt of it with going against killers capable of tactics usually used on a seal squad of 4 swf. Can't buff survivors as those survivors when then steamroll killers in swf. Cant nerf killers because again swf would steamroll killers. The only thing I can think that might work is having 2 separate modes. Solo and swf. Swf mode killers get buffed to deal with it. Soloq killers get nerfed. Or something to that effect. But until that happens I'm afraid killers should prepare for swf and play accordingly.

Tunneling, or running back to hook, definitely have a strategic advantage in DBD. Though I would argue the best time for it is in endgame or near it, when you need the extra map pressure or to get everyone to death hook or one out. Sitting in front of some poor soul who had the grave misfortune of getting hooked first at five gens runs the risk that other survivors will just be doing those gens while you watch them hang there. Because, in the end, that's really the only way to punish a hook sitter. Taking away their map pressure by doing gens.

A true back to hook Harry will severely punish you for doing an unhook, more than likely they will just down you and continue to run after "their prize."

Face camping and generator sieges are well-prepared for in-game systems. Why not try to counter tunneling with player skills and perks?

“Maybe y'all just need to get good against slugging and tunneling.”

Lol

If you're worried about a teammate or yourself being tunneled or slugged, start using Off the Record, Decisive Strike, Borrowed Time, Babysitter, Camaraderie, Reassurance, Kindred, Bloodrush + sprintburst, Shoulder the Burden, etc for hooks. Start bringing unbreakable, Boon - Exponential, Soul Guard, Tenacity, Flip-Flop, We're Going to Live Forever, Power Struggle, For the People, etc for slugging.

Tunneling and slugging are valid strats, even if they are toxic. Better to adapt and play around preventing it happening, or benefiting from it as long as possible.

Can you post some of the games in full then we can give feedback on stuff you can improve on

Shouldn't fun be the reason people play the game?

Were you obtuse on purpose? The question is why is everything ok and nothing matters when it comes to survivors doing their objective, but when it comes to killers doing theirs, suddenly a bunch of factors show up.

Hopefully you understood the point now, though I suspect you understood it the first time and just pretended not to.

Please, stop being disingenuous repeatedly. Survivors do a lot more policing on killers doing their objective than the other way around. You know this, I don't understand why do you act as if you didn't. You see a killer here and there complaining about gen rushing every once in a while, but compare that to how often you see someone complaining about tunelling or slugging or whathave you. Case in point, what thread are we at right now? Survivors can do a lot to "ruin" a killer's game. Bully squads would never have existed otherwise.

The nuance here is this: Hypocrisy. Survivors are fine doing their objective, killers be damned. But if killers do theirs, suddenly the argument of "think of the other side's fun!" shows up. If you don't think this constitutes hypocrisy, I would suggest a dictionary.

It's not just that. The game is accumulating reason on top of reason for killers to stop hooking. I stopped playing survivor because of it. Any single reason alone might not be enough, but when you add everything up, hooking is just a bad idea for killers. When you just keep mindlessly nerfing and hurting hooks over and over and over and over then people tend to turn to other things like slugging.

It makes sense because people are hypocrites. I already said this 3 times. Survivors are fine doing their objective, regardless of what the killer may think. They are not fine with the same thing from the other side. At this point I think there might be some language issue here if you cannot comprehend the hypocrisy. It is pretty damn clear. Or maybe you do… you're not very genuine so I guess it's possible you do but you just ignore and/or pretend you don't see it. Otherwise it makes no sense to actually move your fingers on your keyboard to… defend hypocrisy. What sort of person does that?

Also, if bully squads are "awful at escaping" that says something about the level you play at more than it says something about bully squads as a general thing. Regardless, the quality of the player doesn't matter. We are having a discussion exclusively about mentality.

Also what's with the extremely petty reply thing? I didn't click reply that one particular time cuz yours was the latest post in the thread and I was in a hurry. Some people really take the small nothings and turn into some petty hit back lol. I didn't think it would be a big deal but apparently it was. Some people…

"Killers control the pace of the game"

That is why. This game is, be definition, killer sided. Killers control the game and are expected to get a 60% kill rate.

How are survivors supposed to run anti tunnel perks plus perks to counter whatever the current meta is or may be? We have to prepare for tunneling and slugging while also dealing with pop/pain res/grim, or now a full hex build. You going to drop a suggestion that survivors get 8 perk slots? No, I didn't think so.

Killers get the play style of tunneling and slugging as well as their perks. Survivors do not get that option, we get perks. The end.

Disagreeing about it means that you think survivors should do their objectives without any checks while killers should have to follow several arbitrary rules when completing theirs.

That is, by definition (if you are going to be upset by what I'm about to say, please be upset at the English language, not at me) entitlement. I have heard the sentence "entitled survivors" before but I have to say, I don't actually see it for myself very often. But here it is.

And as for my personal opinion, it is this: Survivors should do their objectives. Killers should do theirs. No crying about anything that is done for the purpose of fulfilling the objective, unless it's some cheat/hack in which case hopefully the person gets hardware IP banned and never comes back. And if the survivors are better they'll win. If the killer is better he'll win. Match over. Go next.

And the reason I specified "things that are done for the purpose of fulfilling the objective" is because there are things people do that have no actual purpose and are just to be a jerk. Like letting the last survivor bleed out instead of hooking/mori'ing for no reason. Waiting for the killer to see you teabagging at the gate on the way out. So on. These things fulfill no purpose, they are just people being toxic.

Ill tell you guys. Survivors are making our playstyle toxic. You ask us why we slug you and let you bleed out while we look at you ? Because you open exit gate and expect me to run across the entire map to waste time. If a survivor is trying to bully me with a flashlight she/he is going down and out from the game in about 2minute tunneling. You sit there when you manage to survive teabagging at the gate talking crap in the post match.. okay, lets see how fun it is next time when i decimate the entire team and then carry you to some bright light where i can slowly watch you die.

If survivors had an ounce of respect when they are sucessful perhaps then. We wouldnt do this.

As a side note. If you managed to be tunneled its a skill issue. You are probably the weak link and by getting you out the pace of everything slows down and sometimes more often than not you are running right into my knife so what should i do? Sometimes Survivors ask me when i camp the last hook when its 1 on hook 1 on death hook. Im like, Should i run to the other side of the map and let you unhook and go pick up your belonings you lost from my perk and then let you sit and start a gen before i engage again?

What do you expect ? A killers mission is to kill so that is what we do.

Please do not say that I or others have thick skulls and can't understand things or accuse me of being a survivor main.

They're not remotely the same objectives. Unless you often find yourself queuing up as a generator and getting eliminated within the first few minutes.

It's not that difficult to buy enough time for teammates to do gens. Survivors have lots of vault locations, pallets and loops especially on large outdoor maps like autohaven. Many killers have anti loop mechanics like executioner, but his attack can easily be avoided by simply moving to the side if the survivor pays attention to where he's aiming. Chases are not supposed to last a very long time because gens fly so fast if chases lasted that long then all gens would be done by the time killer gets 2 downs. So the aim is last long enough for gens to be completed.

I think it depends on who are you playing against and where you are.

Pretty much all of Coldwind Farm and Haddonfield are death sentences, even against the weaker side of the killer roster.

Greenville Square has a lot of pallets, but most of them are weak and unsafe. Against a killer that is extremely oppressive in chase, such as Xeno or Artist, they aren't going to do much.

I feel like maps used to be more consistent and overall had better layouts. And we don't need to go extremely far back with maps that strongly favored the survivor side. We can think of the original map adjustments from patch 3.7.0

Those layouts were balanced, and they were way better than the maps we have today.

But they cry nerf ds when it was 5 seconds and theres been a few nerf otr topics even, when they are used . Just an endless merry go around with killers.

All fair. Thanks for being nice about it :)

Look, I've been incredibly polite with you. If you want to go around accusing people of being upset, entitled, unable to articulate their thoughts, confused, folding under their own opinions, and more, please do it to someone who's not being nice to you. I've written my statements with smiley faces and use friendly language in nearly all of our interactions. I have absolutely not been passive aggressive, but I'm certainly getting tired of the accusations I'm receiving. In any case, I won't be accusing you of any of the sort of things you've accused me of.

With that out of the way, here are my thoughts on what constitutes bad manners in this game:

From survivors, bm is mainly in the form of teabagging and participating in bully squads by targeting the killer more than they target generators.

From killers, bm is mainly in the form of tunneling, camping, aggressive slugging, and that W+D thing whose name I don't write for fear of running afoul of some filter or rule.

Generally, bm in the game on both sides can be placed into two categories: (1) taunting (which includes teabagging and that W+D thing) and (2) anything that dramatically prevents a player from being able to participate in the match.

The things that fit into (2) are bully squad behaviors (excessive stuns, blinds, or other actions done solely to annoy the killer instead of trying to do gens), and a small set of killer behaviors that can force a single survivor player to be unable to participate in the match in the expected way for anywhere from several minutes to the entire match. As mentioned above, those killer behaviors are primarily tunneling, camping, and needless aggressive slugging. Here are a small set of explanations regarding why those are able to prevent a player from participating in a match in a meaningful way:

Tunneling: The killer is always able to tunnel a survivor out of they want to. There is almost nothing a survivor can do to last an entire match against a killer who's set on taking that one person out. If a killer wants just one kill, they can down a survivor, hook them near some gens they can guard and proxy camp while patrolling those gens. Early in my time playing the game, I got annoyed when people would flashlight blind me at every pallet and tunneled some of them out. I remember that one of them escaped... ever. And that player did not get to participate in the match except to be chased and only got out with the help of their entire team. I can only imagine how hard it would be for someone to escape at my current skill level. It is trivial for a killer to tunnel a survivor and make them unable to play the game. A tunneled survivor would be right to wonder why they even started up their match.

Camping: This is actually less of a problem except when paired with tunneling. But a lot of killers will engage in proxy camping because it makes it trivial to prevent one survivor from being healed and gives the killer the opportunity to chase the unhooked survivor or the rescuer. The problematic part of this is that it's a trivial strategy that solo queue survivors have little means of countering if they're not very experienced. I'd argue that camping could be considered by experienced survivors to be not much of a problem since the counter is to get multiple gens done while the killer doesn't do much about it. But this approach to the game is easily coupled with tunneling to make a survivor completely unable to participate in the game except to be chased. And once a 1v3 is obtained by tunneling and camping, the survivors are likely to lose if there are more than one or two gens left. It is a cheap move that easily tilts the match in favor of the killer, but which requires the entire survivor team to know what they're doing to counter.

Needlessly Aggressive Slugging: It is possible for a killer to put survivors on the ground and force them to bleed out for several minutes, unable to participate in the game while doing so. Honestly, four person slugs should almost never happen because survivors shouldn't let it happen, but killers are increasingly able to do it. But the thing I think is really a problem is slugging for 4k. Slugging for 4k causes two people to wait for up to several minutes in a nearly impossible situation. The last survivor has essentially no hope of escape as soon as the third survivor is slugged. Forcing such a situation in a game is already unsportsmanlike. But beyond that, the third survivor has to wait on the ground for up to several minutes. And if the fourth survivor heals the third one, the killer can easily slug one of them again. It's practically a guaranteed fourth kill, even though the last survivor may have outplayed the killer the entire match, with the killer just ignoring them until the end. All this can go on for several minutes, wasting everyone's time when hatch was literally implemented to prevent this scenario.

Tunneling, camping, and aggressive slugging that leads to bleedouts are strategies that require very little skill and often make people wonder why they decided to play the game since they often make it nearly impossible to participate except to be chased and eliminated. Likewise, bully squads and teabagging are things that make the game and community worse, and should be discouraged.

We are playing this game with other people, so it is necessary to consider the experience of those other people when we play. That means that survivors shouldn't be teabagging or bullying, and killers shouldn't be tunneling, camping, or slugging for 4k. I'm not saying that anyone is forced to act well toward other people, only that they should.

I'll likely not write such a long post again, but I wanted to give you the courtesy of answering your question.

****** I apologize to anyone who had to scroll past all this.*****

The killer can pursue their goal by making it nearly impossible for survivors to participate in the game via tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k. Do not forget the part where the targeted survivor is only able to be chased and eliminated for their entire match.

What you're saying is that because the killer can do those things, they should. That is like saying that if I'm able to get more money by causing someone else to not have enough money, I should do that.

We're all playing this game for enjoyment, so we shouldn't make it impossible for others to enjoy the game. That is it. If you want to ruin someone else's experience, feel free. It's allowed for now. But don't be surprised when the people whose experiences you ruin are angry with you.

Also, please remember that survivors do not have that same power. They do not have any ability to pursue their goal in a way that keeps the killer from participating in the match in the expected way. Remember that when you write your inevitable response.

Do I tunnel? Sometimes. Stop unhooking the survivor before I even leave the area. Take 20-30 seconds and go do a generator, not unhook them when I’m one tile over kicking a generator or breaking a pallet. And don’t just stand there healing in the open afterwards.