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Slugging
Srsly people you need to learn how to play as survivor or find friends and play together. It's only your problem that last survivor doesn't help you and leave you bleeding out. It's not killer's fault that YOUR teammate doesn't care about you and won't help you. It's killer's job to kill ALL survivors and if last one is trying to get hatch then he NEED to leave you on the ground. if you want blame someone then blame devs for creating hatch mechanic like this. Don't blame killer for doing his job.
Comments
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Pretty much what I been saying, it's the hatch mechanic that's the blame. No different to when people were complaining about the base kit mori encouraging slugging for the 4k, the hatch does the same. Encourages slugging. But so many survivors seem to like the hatch as a means to escape they wouldn't dare put the blame on hatch lol
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literally forced to have some people bleed out because they even burn offerings to know where the hatch is.
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So what I'm hearing is that it is somehow the fault of the other survivors in the lobby that you are actively making the decision to bleed someone out instead of just hooking them and racing the last survivor to the hatch?
You do realize that a win for killers is 3 sacrifices right? Even if you hook and the last survivor escapes you still won the match.
You could move on from that match and be tormenting 4 new people in the time it takes you to sit there and let someone bleed out.
Survivors are not entitled to a hatch escape the same way killers are not entitled to 4k.
Nobody is "literally" forcing you to bleed people out. This is a choice you are actively making.
If I see a killer wasting my time with this garbage you can bet I'm going to turn around and do the same.
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I agree that it is a player choice to slug sometimes, especially for the 4k. But it's also players choice to hide it out indefinitely in 2 v 1 situations instead of doing gens, t bag at gates when they could escape and go next faster. Both choices many many survivors opt for delaying the match as long as possible for no reason other than to waste killers time. I'm not saying 2 wrongs make a right but it's kinda hard to feel sympathy for slugging survivors for 4min especially when it's for a genuine reason like unable to hook or for 4k... And not purely to waste time for the sake of it.
It seems to me that as a generalisation, survivors are fine wasting time if it's on their terms. But they have an issue when the killer does it on the killers terms. Not all survivors, but in my experience a huge proportion thats how it seems to me.
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I mean, I just played an epic solo q match against a slugging Huntress tonight.
I looped her pretty well a few times but she could have easily won if she just hooked people. Instead she got us all on two hooks with 3 gens left and tried to bleed us all out.
Fortunately, everyone on the team understood the assignment....except the bot we were stuck with from an early DC lmao
We rotated to pick up slugs, did gens during chases, and were able to break a nasty end game 3 gen thanks to my Deja Vu/Resilience combo and all 3 of us on the last gen while they tried to slug the bot.
We got a 4 out with everyone on death hook and seconds away from bleeding out.
Slugging is definitely counterable even in solo Q. Sometimes you just have to take charge and show your team you won't give up on them, and they return the favor. If you start hiding in a corner everyone just wants to go next.
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This sounds far more likely that the Huntress got you all to death hook at three gens, decided they would rather give you all the chance to succeed, and then played for fun. Slugging at that stage is to the survivor's benefit, not theirs.
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Not really, she was trying incredibly hard to bleed us out and using every chance she could to keep everyone slugged, not allowing pickups to anyone she was near.
She certainly wasn't playing to win, she was playing to waste everyone's time and be annoying and get the 4k by bleed out. Which is all slugging amounts to.
There was nothing nice about it, they played like an ass the whole match more or less. It would have been more "fun" to get hooked and move on to next match.
Slugging in general isn't an effective winning strategy unless everyone is clumped together, noone slugs to win in the normal way because any half decent team can counter it unless you're playing comp killers.
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Hatch does not cause slugging for 4k. It doesn't even encourage it. Hatch was literally implemented to prevent the things slugging for 4k causes. Without hatch, every 4k would end in some long-drawn-out game of hide-and-seek, but where the outcome is guaranteed. The survivor would not escape, but many of them would end up hiding as long as possible. I don't want to be dealing with that as killer or survivor.
Hatch, when not circumvented, gives the last survivor a reason not to just hide for as long as possible, causing the endgame to finish in a timely way. It also makes it possible for the last survivor to have some hope of escaping, which is pretty reasonable. I rarely ever see a survivor just intentionally hiding for ages once only two survivors are left so they can get hatch. (But I have to admit that I have found survivors doing gens during hopeless game states and then gone to see if their teammate is doing gens too…) But I've seen plenty of games where the killer leaves the strongest looper for the end. It's pretty fair that the last survivor gets a chance at escape.
It's also true that hatch race is generally in the killer's favor. I tend to win most of my hatch races as killer since I have higher move speed, don't need to hide from the survivor, and can fulfill my goal by finding either the hatch or the survivor. Slugging for 4k also doesn't make the difference between a 'win' or 'loss'. The only metric that suggests a win or loss is that MMR considers a win at 3k or higher.
It's also not the slugged survivor's fault if their solo queue teammate leaves them to bleed out. Slugging for 4k makes that move possible, and actively encourages survivors to hide for minutes at a time. By slugging for 4k, the killer is causing the game of hide-and-seek that hatch was meant to prevent. And killers who do this think it's acceptable to force the third survivor to bleed out on the ground for up to several minutes while this goes on.
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Sorry but I have to disagree strongly with this one, hatch does encourage slugging just as basekit Mori does. It gives killers a reason to slug. I know this because I wouldn't slug at the end game if there was nothing in it for me. Remove hatch and Mori and why would I slug? Also the hatch hasn't solved the hide and seek issue because still survivors hide until server end time if need be even if they know when server time runs out they get sacrificed automatically.
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It's impossible to hide until server time runs out during a slug for 4k unless the survivor refuses to escape once the bleedout timer is out and the killer refuses to close the hatch. And I've never seen two survivors hide for an hour. Admittedly, I don't recall if I've had two survivors both try to hide for hatch. However, I know I've never had two survivors hide for hatch until server end time; maybe I just found them and it doesn't stick out in my mind?
But if we removed hatch, then we would see survivors hiding for as long as possible. I mean this as a real question: Would you prefer that to hatch?
Not trying to be confrontational, just genuinely curious :)
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So what I'm hearing is that it is somehow the fault of the other survivors in the lobby that you are actively making the decision to bleed someone out instead of just hooking them and racing the last survivor to the hatch?
why would you let RNG take part in match outcome if you can just decide the match outcome yourself?
You do realize that a win for killers is 3 sacrifices right? Even if you hook and the last survivor escapes you still won the match.
and? 3 escapes is also a win for survs and yet, i never see that "mercy" thing from their side and they will usually always do everything for 4-men escape.
You could move on from that match and be tormenting 4 new people in the time it takes you to sit there and let someone bleed out.
coin has two sides, yk?
Nobody is "literally" forcing you to bleed people out. This is a choice you are actively making.
If I see a killer wasting my time with this garbage you can bet I'm going to turn around and do the same.
the whole sabo aspect of the game together with Boil Over and other similar perks literally forces this playstyle lol.
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To be fair hatch might as well not exist because it's a regular occurrence in my matches when there are 2 survivors left both hide for as long as possible, avoid doing gens and many times server has ended because they refuse to come out of hiding and I refuse to stop patroling gens. My job is patrol gens not play hide and seek searching the whole map for 2 people that are avoiding the objective (repairing gens). So to answer your question as a killer, I would prefer to remove the hatch so it doesn't give survivors any more reason to delay the match in the way they do currently. Also I wouldn't slug the 3rd survivor to get the 4k I feel I have earned by taking out 2 survivors before they completed 2 gens.
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That's weird. I never see this. But to be fair, I don't strictly patrol gens if I think people are hiding. If there's not a gen with lots of progress, I go hunting and wrap things up pretty fast :)
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I mostly play as a survivor, and while I don't like it when the killer slugs for the 4k, I feel it's similar to 99ing the gate. However, bleeding someone out is unfair, so I understand the friction on this topic.
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a 3k is still counted as a win by the game, the hatch exists so that if there is only 1 surv left in the game they have a chance. Personally when I play killer i don't slug for the 4k unless i know exactly where the last survivor is because it just drags the game out
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Slugging currently as it stands can be very strong. The ability to bypass a variety of perks by simply not engaging I feel is definitely a problem. So many survivors perks activate after hooking or are hook related perks, and slugging can completely avoid them. That’s a very strong advantage for something that doesn’t even require a perk slot itself.
In the first 2v8, when flashlight saves were not possible, or hook sabo, killers still slugged. Even though many of the reasons listed for slugging were not possible. They slugged enough to the point where BHVR made changes to the second iteration of 2v8, adding in all those reasons killers slug to try and combat the unnecessary slugging from the last version. That being said, I wouldn’t be surprised if BHVR tried to implement something similar in base game if slugging becomes more popular than hooking. The people that slug this way and bleed out are only giving more data about slugging that BHVR will see, as we already know they keep track of it when they posted stats about it last time, so it’s already on their radar.
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another reason to blame hatch mechanic and not killer XD.. BUT that offering is also giving killer info BUT in that case survivors can outplay you by sacrificing one of them in some corner of the map far away from hatch, another reason for slugging
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Why would i take a risk of losing by racing someone i don't even know where is to place i don't know where is? XD That's not my problem if you can't take L. 3 kills is not a win XD. Killer's job is getting 4kills, kill everyone before anyone escape XD. They wouldn't make it 4v1 if 3 kills was everything.
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rtyg
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3 kills is a 'win' by the only definition of 'win' we have from BHVR...
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4 targets means 4 kills
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I think slugging by letting the survivor bleed out is the worse thing as someone who likes to play killer. If your going to slug, hook each of those people if you got all four of them on the ground. Then you get more bloodpoints for hook stages. I personally prefer to hook the survivors down in the basement after slugging them. As for slugging build, I personally like: Knock Out, Deer Stalker, Infectious Fright, and Distressing.
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But that isn't what you said. You said three kills isn't a win. But it actually is.
Not only that, but saying '4 targets means 4 kills' doesn't address anything about slugging, in general or for 4k.
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first of all you have to accept that hatch causes slugging for 4k…slugging for 4k is used to avoid 4th surv escaping ;)… and in most cases that 4th guy was just hiding somewhere, letting his team die. no, im not gonna let anyone escape when i play killer, my job is to make sure noone escapes… i don't care what you think about what is win or what's not. there are 4 survivors and one killer, means 4 survivors have to die. IF YOU DON'T LIKE LONG GAMES WITH HIDE N SEEK then don't hide until 3 teammates are dead XD. if you rly want that hatch then earn it. you don't deserve hatch if you can't survive without hiding. we play for points, points are for objectives like helping other survs, repairing, sabotage, looping and leaving killer, stunning killer etc. not for hiding. noone cares about your feelings and your opinion, devs created slugging mechanic and hatch to use it.. you don't like it?? then don't play this game because people will continue hiding and leavin their teams to get hatch, slugging and being toxic and all you can do is accept that or uninstall dbd
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: Having the hatch be determined by how the killer played vs how the last survivor played would fix most people's issues with how the hatch mechanic works. Most killer players' issue with the hatch is that it often takes away kills that the killer earned, while survivors hate it because they feel they "earned" a win despite their teammates yet it comes down to forced patience and random chance.
If an individual survivor played better than the killer, they deserve the hatch since they did well despite (apparently) their team holding them back. Likewise if the killer completely stomps, they don't deserve to have one of their kills (and now mori) taken away. There would need to be additions to the formula to account for things like 4 man slugs, but a simple starting point could be emblem totals stacked against each other to determine hatch availability. If a survivor is avoiding interactions entirely they don't deserve to escape more than a survivor who is constantly trying to carry their team, and a killer going for 12 hooks deserves to secure the last kill more than one who tunnels survivors out one by one.
Use quagmires like this to condition better gameplay, while removing the "helpless" aspect of the hatch situation for either side.
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there is a big difference between slugging four survivors and leaving them on the ground to bleed out and slugging the second to last Survivor to find the other one. The first one is unnecessary and is definitely a toxic place style. If you have all four survivors down, there’s no reason not to hook them. However, slugging the second to last Survivor to find the last one is a viable strategy. Anyone that is complaining about that is just wanting a free escape that they did not earn.
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As someone who plays both sides - it's not that deep.
I don't feel robbed when the last person gets hatch, it's part of the strategy of the game to either slug for the 4k or decide to play for hatch, certain perks make it a lot easier or harder to find that last person in time.
As survivor I don't play a match for hatch until my last teammate is on hook and its clear we can't win. If I do get hatch I don't feel any sort of accomplishment other than a "cool I managed to get out!".
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You don't feel robbed, thats great. Other killers do, and they have justification for feeling that way. Likewise survivors who try to hard carry a bad team have justification for feeling robbed of the hatch when they still don't get it after trying their hardest despite being held back.
The outcome of the 4th survivor can vary from trivial to frustrating for either side, and its part of what fuels the stubbornness of most people's stance on the situation. There should be a "wrap it up" scenario to prevent either side from prolonging things, and it should be implemented in a way that is most fair to both sides.
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Anyone can feel any way, it's not possible to balance a game based on how everyone feels about something because it's not an objective thing to be measured.
Objectively, it is part of the strategy for both sides and there is nothing wrong with the current implementation of hatch except a few people's entitled feels.
If you give up hatch as a killer, that's on you. If you don't get it as survivor, that's on you.
The only thing I -might- change would be how and where it spawns since that's entirely RNG. Maybe making it spawn in a place equal distance as possible between a killer and survivor would be interesting for a PTB experiment.
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More comp world citizens arguing with party game citizens. Nothing new to see here.
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The entire point of my stance is to address exactly that, that there should be an objective way to determine who "earned" their preferred outcome best in the stalemate. I used comparing emblem scores as a starting point since they're something that has been in the game for ages, before SBMM even existed. I also gave room to address outcomes that are skewed by using strats that are unfair to the opponent.
Do you honestly enjoy the hatch situation as it currently is, warts and all, as either side? Is random chance paired with situations that prolong the issue the best way to go? Is a vast majority of the userbase on either side "entitled" for wanting a more fair determination on the fate of the 4th?
The last part addresses one aspect of the situation, but ignores the rest. It's also not really possible in that application because hatch offerings exist, so they would either need to be completely reworked or they'd be worthless.
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The killer chooses to slug, not the survivors.
They can simply choose not to.
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If I am playing killer I personally never bother slugging for the 4k, unless I am doing an adept or the team was particularly toxic and then it is spite thing more than anything.
But if you slug for the 4k you are actively choosing to waste people's time, so if I am slugged I actually hope my random team mate does hide it out. If you are going to waste my time then I am happy for them to waste your time while you look for them for 4 minutes, then if they don't find the hatch before you I hope they hide it out for the entire EGC too, I know I sure do.
If someone finds hatch before me on both sides, I am fine with RNG deciding rather than wasting everyone's time. But I will waste someone's time out of spite lol
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survs choose to hide and not doing their job
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That is not the only reason killers slug. Sometimes they go into a match with the intention of slugging from the start.
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i slug for 4th when i don't see 4th guy around… im not the one wasting time by hiding and leaving teammates. if the last one escapes after playing actively, he deserved 100%. but hiding?? nope. hiding is wasting everyone's time, killer's and slugged surv's.
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then they slug for the sake of slugging not for 4k, then they are toxic. but surv who is hiding and not doing what he should is also toxic for his teammates.
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I see that you said 'no one cares about your feelings and your opinion".
That's a very unhealthy approach to any interaction with other people. If someone doesn't want to care about the feelings and opinions of other people, they shouldn't be playing games with other people.
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but playing killer is playing against other people not with so as killer why should i care about what survivors think. if i won against 4 people it means i was better or they made some bigger mistakes.
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Playing a game 'against' someone is included in the term 'playing with' them. You don't say 'I played Scrabble against my friends'. People instead say 'I played Scrabble with my friends.'
It's not reasonable to interact with other people in any setting and not care about what they think. We can think other people are wrong and even discuss that with them, but expecting other people to do the courtesy of interacting with us while we disregard their thoughts and feelings is very self-centered and unhealthy.
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Let's think about this critically for a few seconds: assuming hatch didn't exist, what is the outcome of a 2v1 scenario? Do survivors suddenly have an incentive to not hide? Why should the game be over for the survivors in a 2v1?
A 3k is quite literally counted as a win by the game. That is not an opinion. Your MMR increases on a 3k. It's treated as a win.
You're free to slug for a 4k. But if you're going to do it, you should be ok with people being irritated that you're wasting everyone's time when you do it. It's basic social EQ. If you play a game with other people, many are not going to want to play with you if you play a certain way.
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it’s not counterable when everyone is downed with no way to get up which is the increasing problem people are actually worried about.
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Assuming the hatch didn't exist what would the incentive be to hide? If 2 survivors acknowledge they can't win then why shouldn't the game be over for them? 3k is only treated as a win in regards to MMR, an invisible number that no one has any idea what number it is. However 3k doesn't give mori, doesn't count towards certain achievements and doesn't give as many BP as 4k. So in this regard, 3k isn't considered a win.
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Internally, hatch is treated as a draw. The survivor doesn't gain or lose MMR for using it and you don't lose MMR for them leaving through it. The only reason to go out of your way to slug in a 2v1 (when you don't know where the other guy is) is if you need an achievement/challenge that requires a 4k or you are doing it for ego's sake. The latter is a huge issue in the game on both sides that can make casual play miserable.
By the way OP, this tends to happen in 2v1s even if both are doing gens. A majority of the time, killers will do it because they want the 4k, not because the other guy is hiding. It's nonsensical for me to blame my teammates or the hatch (which is a good mechanic btw, without it last guy hides for 10 years) for the killer actively choosing to bleed someone out to get a 4k.
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You forgot the 4k gives Mori and more BP. Also I say again, last guy will hide for 10 years with the 3rd survivor and that's because both are hoping the other dies…why? Because they both want hatch. So having the hatch as a mechanic doesn't prevent that, it just gives more reason to hide.
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The mori and BP are basically inconsequential though. And yes, in 2v1s sometimes both survivors will hide which is an issue, which is why I think there should be a mechanic when exactly 2 survivors are alive and not slugged or hooked where they will be revealed with killer instinct if they don't interact with a generator or killer power every… 60 seconds?
Hatch and EGC existing prevents more hiding than it causes though, I'd say. There are plenty of situations where I've made it to a 1v1 and I'm able to find and close hatch where before I'd have to stand on top of it until the server closes if I really cared about a 4k. Hatch standoffs were awful.
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Because stalemates are a design flaw, and that's what a 2v1 without hatch is. It shouldn't be over for them because this is a PVP video game, not a killer power fantasy. The game pacing should never depend on one side conceding.
Personally, I don't get slugging for a 4k at all. I can't remember the last time I did it. It's an unranked public match. Take a 3k, save everyone 5 minutes, and go next. If I get the 4k, cool.
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The hatch exists for your protection as the killer as well as offering the final survivor a last chance at escape.
If the hatch wasn't a thing, the 4th survivor has no real hope of escaping. But they can waste your time by playing hide-and-seek. You really don't want that. A survivor who doesn't want to be found is impossible to find without aura reading. There are lots of ways to keep the AFK crows away.
I was held hostage in a match once on Swamp for 30 minutes by two survivors who decided to get back at me for winning by making it impossible to find them rather than progressing the game. Do you really want to put up with that every time there's 1 survivor left but the gens aren't done?
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I agree it is a design flaw but the fact that 2 survivors can hide without touching gens and avoiding crows for up to an hour is the same stalemate that would exist without the hatch. Difference being people hide for a reason which is the hatch. If there is no reason, no hatch then why would they hide?
You say take the 3k and go next... Why is it down to the killer to walk away from a potential kill? Why doesn't the survivors that are hiding think "take the loss, save everyone like 30min and go next?" They don't, they will hide it out for as long as possible. That's why it's handy when a survivor rats out the hidden survivor. It gets the match over quicker.
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I don't see how BP and Mori is more inconsequential than an invisible number that no one can see and is widely regarded as broken which is why new players are going against people with over 2000 hours.
I do agree that survivors should get crows easier or aura revealed somehow when they are intentionally hiding. But in my experience as killer a huge proportion of matches go the same way, tunnel 1 survivor out, by the time 2nd is out it's usually down to maybe 1 or 2 gens left. Then it's hide and seek. Many times 3rd survivor will rat out the 4th to get the match over with but in a lot of cases they will both hide.
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