Argument (survivors don't want to learn the counter-play against specific killers).

You can technically read a snip it in the killer bio where it states what the killer power is, but this not very indepth.

Games been out long enough everyone thinks they'll pick up on everything quickly. This might be the case for many but not for all.

Having little Tipps appear in game while playing would help inexperience players a lot. Then under certain conditions the game would tell you what you should do. For example when a teammate is on hook for very long: “Your friend needs help”, when you are in the killers terror radius: “The killer is close”, when playing against Sadako: “Take a tape and bring it to the TV” or “Turn TVs off to be safe of the curse”….

This could be done in a lot of situations, where you (the devs) think survivors should get some help. Additionally I would add an option for experienced survivors to deactivate it.

Secondly if you would allow for more communication, not voice chat, but something that lets you choose between little short messages, so you can tell your team: “do pinheads box” or “if you ignore the reversed bear trap, you are gonna die”. This way teammates could help other survivors better, but without having any more communication other than pointing, it’s difficult.

Last but not least I would appreciate having killer bots in private games to train. There it should be an option to set the survivor/killer bots on extremely strong/strong/middle/weak.

Probably a bot mode against a bot Killer would greatly help the situation.

I would like this!

That is true. Its just as much of an issue here as it is in fighting games requiring you to purchase characters to be able to train as or against them. Ideally every killer would be selectable like how addons and such work, but I can understand BHVR not wanting to allow that level of freedom for free. Closest you can get unfortunately is having a friend who owns the killer and doing 1v1 customs vs them to practice common scenarios and interactions. Sadly its either that or watch a lot of gameplay videos with that specific killer.

Edit: This post just reminded me of the splinter system, and how poorly it was designed. I wonder if they could find a way to incorporate something similar into customs instead? Maybe have tokens that could refill each month and be used to temporarily choose killers you don't own?

I don't know that it would help any but maybe the first time, or first few times, someone plays against a certain killer, they will see a quick snippet or video on the killer instead of the loading screen. I know that the description on the loading screen displays some info. Perhaps a 15-30 second clip of a killers power or ability may help. An added audio description wouldn't hurt either. Also make it so when the escape key, or start button, is pressed there will be a new icon that can be hovered over to show the killers power description.

None of this is a real replacement for practice but extra info never hurts.

We need a tutorial overhaul for one, and we need to have reminders in game that the other side is human for another.

We also need clarification once and for all, in game, if certain tactics are sweaty/fair game or not. Is it skillful and a tactic to pressure with some slugging/downs or not? Is genrushing a tactic or just sweaty? If they're not tactics, then why are some Killers based around being good at pressuring downs and why can we combo a bunch of tools/perks/teamwork to push gens to absurd speeds some Killers can't keep up with?

We need Killer bots to practice against in customs, and help when Killers disconnect.

We need a bleedout button, a faster bleedout, and a forfeit button for BOTH SIDES. It's completely unfair and discouraging to force Killers to sit in miserable rounds they can't possibly win in, and it's equally unfair and discouraging to force "we're here to goof around" teams to stay in games with a Blight with four slowdown going on thier 5,000th win in a streak. Nobody has fun when they feel forced to play.

We need ingame assurance that yes, it's normal to lose as Survivor slightly more, and that only YOUR escape counts as a win or whatever.

We need deep disincentives for griefing - if you four slug and bleed everyone out, zero points. If you and your SWF come in to mess up a baby M1's day with "can't hook me" builds, zero points. If the other side can't even get one gen or a few hooks to a kill, because you're so mismatched in MMR, zero points.

We need an MMR degrade that is equal to MMR gain, both sides, I am SICK of coming back from a break and being slammed around and I am SICK of getting terrible teammates in SoloQ.

We need people to stay in the game. Remove self-ending on Hook. Just remove the ability to do that. You should only be able to do it if you bring something like Deli, Slippery Meat, a Luck offering, etc.

We also desperately, Mandy, need a way you can "win" by pipping even if you don't escape or don't 3-4k. We need the game to be less sweaty overall. DBD needs to base wins around how much you can do in a round, things like hookstages rather than kills, and based on how well you do at certain things NOT just how fast you can crank gens and leave. In fact maybe 4king or pushing gens too fast should be punished with fewer BP, I dunno. Basically, the game needs to be less sweaty, the requirements for doing well shouldn't hinge on how well you dominate the other side, and you shouldn't need to win/dominate the round to Pip, EVER - not everyone is comp and this game has gone increasingly comp while the Devs seem to want desperately to make it more casual. If it's intended to be comp fine, but if it's intended to be casual with a side of comp, there need to be more wincons and casual elements so skill and escapes/kills aren't the only way you get ANYWHERE or feel accomplishment.

Because right now, the Game is black and white. It outright says "if you don't escape/kill everyone, you lose." Which means Survs feel pressured to always need to 4 man out, and Killers feel pressured to always need to 4k, and that leads to sweaty unfun for everyone. Do something about that if you want the game to be more casual like tag and less comp e-sport.

Even though it would be a lot of work, the best learning tool would probably be a separate tutorial video for each killer, to go over a killer's power in detail, and how the survivor is supposed to counterplay the killer.

And if there any special items or objects connected with a killer, that should be explained too. For example, I don't think it's 100% intuitive that when one of Vecna's treasure chests turns into a mimic, that it stays a mimic chest, and survivors should be looking closely at each treasure chest before opening it, to ensure it hasn't turned into a mimic chest.

It also seems like some survivors don't have any idea of where they should place Xeno turrets, and they end up unknowingly placing them in bad spots, and then complaining that the turrents are weak.

Its just as much of an issue here as it is in fighting games requiring you to purchase characters to be able to train as or against them.

The difference here, to go back to the OP's post, is that in DbD this is a one sided requirement. If in a fighting game you don't want to carefully study every character in the game, and the MMR / group you play with doesn't either, there's no inherent disadvantage. And if you do study every character and climb in the ranks, the new players you face have to undertake the same task.

I'm going to date myself here because the last time I really played fighting games seriously the SNES was the height of technological innovation - but it would be like if in Street Fighter 2 players were divided between choosing Guile or anyone but Guile. The players in group A would have to learn to fight every other character, while in group B they would only have to learn to fight against the one move set. Group B would have a much easier time advancing in their skills than Group A which creates a massive issue for game balancing (which might be an inevitable element of DbD, but its a unique problem).

Touch the red light = 1 out of 3 dots appeared on my hud, sound played, effect appeared on my body, touch white light = nothing happened, so Red light bad, white light good, it really isn't super hard to match the informations

Oh yeah, and idk if you already know this but skull merchant don't receive haste at all, unless she rotates the drone and scan you within 5 seconds

But they could bring back some of her old stuff.. like the goofy survivor walking animation when they get in the drone radius (1.0 skull merchant) the hud filling up with a yellow/orange light when you're in the drone radius (1.0 skull merchant) some of her missing animations to show that she interacted with the radar etc..

I mean I agree that there should be some type of bots for killers for training purposes, but again, my point was that you need to learn your opponent just as much as you need to learn your own role. For killers its a matter of learning how to make the most of your kit and minimize its weaknesses, while survivors need to learn how to take advantage of any weaknesses and reduce the killer's impact. I get your Street Fighter analogy, but its a bit skewed: In fighting games (historically and currently) learning how to fight against specific characters is just as important as learning your own.

This is important since your game plan changes drastically depending on your opponent, so both groups will have to learn the offensive and defensive nuances of each matchup. This also applies to categories just as much as individuals: Grappler players for example will always need to know what to do against zoners, regardless of which zoner it is they fight. This is very similar to how X killer needs to learn how to counter Y strategy, while X survivor needs to learn how to counter Y killer while using Z loadout.

To reiterate, I DO think survivor training tools could (and should) absolutely be improved. That said, there is still more there to utilize than a lot of people give credit for, it just takes a bit more unorthodox of an approach. Part of why I made the fighting game comparison is because it is extremely common to handle problem matchups in that fashion, which also has the same hangup DBD does regarding practicing against content you don't own.

The benefit of learning to play as a killer is that you learn what to make reads on. Understanding a killer's mindset, what they're looking for, what their most likely reactions to situations is, thats the things you're supposed to be looking for. That type of info absolutely applies to improving your counterplay toward them, its straight out of the Art of War:

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

Yes, there is a lot to learn on the survivor side itself on how to counter certain killers (either by category or individual nuances) but that is less of the puzzle than a lot of people assume. The lack of survivor focused training is part of why I don't mind "lost games" as much as a lot of people seem to: They're perfect practice sessions for that half of counterplaying. You don't continue the match expecting to win, but rather to learn as much as you can from the opportunity. Obviously that doesn't apply to situations like 4 man slugs, but even being tunneled gives you more opportunities to try out different strategies. You can practice things like pathing and routing, looping in general, checkspots, resource management, etc. Thats where you want to practice that half of the interactions since there is no bot equivalent for survivors to practice, which I wish did have a proper practice tool for. before bots were added into the game, killers had to keep playing losing games to test these things. I want survivors to have the same level of training options as killers do, but I think what is already there is underutilized due to its perspective alone.

But again, my point was that learning what a killer wants to do in any given situation is just as (if not moreso, imo) important as learning mechanical skill aspects on the survivor side itself. You can even take it a step further and practice in live matches, and see what survivors do to effectively counter you, then apply that info to your own survivor play. Also yes, I know that doing these things is better than seeing it, the videos comment was more toward when you're unable to practice hands on due to not owning killers, which I reiterate I do think practice should not be limited to owned content only. Its something thats been burning me up since the early DLCs of Street Fighter 5 (and even earlier with games like KoF13), and its just a bad practice for any game where players want to be able to grow and evolve their gameplay.

I think we mostly agree then! From your original reply, I thought you were suggesting AI killer bots weren’t necessary because of the ability to practice with AI survivor bots or purchased killers. But after your explanation, it seems like you agree that training tools like killer AI bots should be implemented, even though some value can still be gained from playing killer or watching how survivors counter you. Which I do agree with.

If I gave the impression that playing killer doesn’t help you learn counterplay, that wasn’t my intent. I do think it’s a valuable resource for understanding killer mindsets. However, I believe that insight only goes so far compared to actively facing killers yourself. And vice versa, as practicing against AI survivors is a much different experience than actual ones, and while it can help Killers get an idea on how their powers work, test out builds and thigns like that, that value you get is limited as opposed to actually facing real survivors or by teaming up with fellow survivors to face a killer that you yourself main. Also it's worth noting that in this scenario of a player wanting to better survivor so they start practicing as a killer in actual matches, it's going to take time to get to a point where the survivors you face actually make good decisions or show skill that you will want to replicate, as many beginner survivors don't know how to loop, when to unhook, how to run tiles or do anything that you are trying to learn how to do in the first place. You'd be forced to putting in quite a few hours on killer (which in this scenario is not the persons preffered role as their goal is to simply improve as survivor) just to gt to the point where you can better understand how to play against them. Combine this with the fact that survivor and killer gameplay aren’t fully interchangeable, as personal preference and enjoyment can heavily influence which role a player excels at. While “thinking like your enemy” is important, the current system makes it much easier for killers to practice against AI survivors than for survivors to practice countering killers. Survivors have no equivalnt training tool, and buying killers they dont want to play just for practice feels like an unnecessary and slightly unresonable ask.

With the AI killer technology already in use for 2v8 mode, implementing a similar feature for survivor training seems possibleand would provide an equal resource for both sides. It’s a great resource that helps players improve and enjoy the game more regardless of their preferred role.

In any case, I think we’re on the same page for the most part. I’m not saying there’s no value in playing as a killer to learn, but that value is pretty limited when you factor in the paywalls, the time and effort it takes to rank up and face better opponents, and how those restrictions don’t really exist for killers practicing against survivors. It just makes it harder for survivors to get the same benefits killers already have. Either way, I think we can both agree that having more accessible practice tools for everyone would be a good thing. :)

I mean… Yes? i do this, if i want to know, how killers work and how should i counterplay them

For me it isn't a case of learning, as many mechanics are reskins but you treat them very similar to other killers etc.

The problem for me is the counter play is not fun or satisfying and I don't want to have to endure tedious killers like Twins, Knight Chucky etc.

I kinda wish there was a a 'classic' mode for DBD, with just fun old school killers and limited to old school perks etc but minus the broken stuff that BHVR was right to remove

You explaining something doesn't make it correct.

And yes, not every gamer "learns" the game they play. Believe it or not a lot of players treat it as a party game and don't want to study each individual aspect to be a better player. It's like playing chess because you know the very basics and think it's fun vs wanting to study the game and be a great player.

That said, it's really not hard. Within my first week I understood the basics of each killer power. Doesn't mean I was great at actually doing the counterplay, I sucked, but they aren't hard to grasp and nothing is unintuitive against them.

As for "resources" there's a thing called YouTube you guys might have heard of. It's this crazy site where people upload videos, I've heard some people even upload DBD content you can learn from. Crazy world we live in.

I don't expect a full on thesis on each killer from a survivor but anyone who actually wants to learn at least the most important things to not suck can do so in almost no time. It's much harder to master a killer than grasp their counter play.

i know that they are big. So what? Most "strange name" explained in killer power again, or in game tutorial
"So reading a specific killer power description doesn't seem like a problem, but reading all the killers power descriptions is a difficult task for many people, let alone not forgetting them."
Don't they teach you to read in school?

And so we continue to ask for the system to handle the difficulty of reading and remembering the explanations, and the result is what we have now.

Chucky is not that strong of a killer, but this adjustment has made him a near-weakest killer.

It does have the problem of being small in stature and hard to see.
However, his walking speed is slow and his steins are clearly visible, and he is by no means impossible to chase.

We need to make an effort to play the killer and figure out its capabilities, even if only a little, instead of always saying it is OP and relying on nerfs and systemic responses to the many ways of standing and maneuvering that those who play the killer have thought and tried and created.

with that logic you can nerf/simplify anything in this game, even trapper