Argument (survivors don't want to learn the counter-play against specific killers).

I think this is an excellent post. One thing I'd add:

Games can be complex and still have large player bases that are casual if the players are evenly matched up. The difficulty for DbD, which is just increasing, is that one side has the much harder burden with all the killers.

When you read any post about this killer you will always see the argument (survivors don't want to learn to play against her).

Unfortunately for them this is not the case, in what part of the world does a player not want to learn how to play a game they paid for?

I agree, I always find these arguments strange. As if there are two separate pools of players who are in the game, and that one side just cares far less than the other side.

Its going to sound odd, but honestly, survivors already have the tool they need to counter individual killers: The exact same custom mode. Play as the killer in there, see how bots react to your power, and learn its nuances. You can then start throwing in perk and addon combinations to see how they change interactions with the killer.

I know it sounds backwards, but the #1 way to get better at matchups in games is to know your opponent. art of war and whatnot.

Nothing is clear to players against this killer, nothing tells you that the drone is used for surveillance, nothing tells you that one touch of the laser means the killer knows your exact location for 12 seconds, nothing tells you that she will move faster the more survivors she has on her radar, nothing tells you that after being hit by three laser scans you will receive a claw trap, nothing tells you that one scan from the drone while you have a claw trap means you will move 10% slower for 6 seconds and she will receive killer instinct, nothing is clear what the white and orange laser beam means, nothing tells you that when she throwing a drone see will get undetectable for 8 seconds.

Her power quite literally tells the player about everything you said, but yeah she's kinda hard to understand for new players

in what part of the world does a player not want to learn how to play a game they paid for?

Freddy's release.

Sorry, I understand the point of the post and, for the most part, I agree.

But we have two very clear examples of situations where people actually refused to learn.

Withdraw.

TragicSolitude actually brought up one of the main points I was going to say haha.

Aside from the fact that you’d have to purchase all the killers in order to use them in the AI to practice with (despite not needing to purchase any survivor perks to practice against survivors) The only other things I would add is that being able to go against a killer is different than actually playing the killer. A major skill in survivor is learning how to loop and position yourself against various killers, something that can’t be replicated when you’re playing as the killer. It’s the equivalent of watching a video of someone looping as opposed to actually looping. They’re very different.
Being able to practice hands on, doing the actual spot checks, learning how to play tiles and run shack etc. is better to do yourself than to simply watch what other people do.

And just as being a killer versing survivor bots can do this and is very helpful, being able to replicate specific situations be it with certain maps you struggle with, certain killer add-ons you don’t understand etc. would be very beneficial.

I understand your point, but I disagree that you’d get the same kind of value. Again, I think it’s great killers have these kind of tools, but I think survivors would benefit from the same kind of tools as well. (Possibly more so simply because of the various types of killers and all the killer perks.)

Thanks for your reply! :)

Maybe adding some easy and fast up-to-date pop up when you boot the game after a patch or long while to get you updated easily what changed (Like icons of characters and like some short text or indication of "buffed/nerfed/ adjusted/ reworked", etc.)

Lot of players who play this game casualy or just simple hop on for few games every once a while and do not follow every patch note or patch notes at all are usualy confused on what is going on. This counts even more when you add killers like Sadako, Merchant, Chucky that get changed a lot during short ammout of time.

"Not all players understand the same way, which is why developers tend to make things basic for easy understanding, but how would a player know that this killer will move faster if the survivor is laser scanned or receives a claw trap? There is no easy way to know this."

Read killer power description? 🤨It is mentioned right there

The general problem with dbd is that you have so much to learn which makes the game complicated by its own. As a beginner, you have to learn all of the maps (and to understand that some of them have variants or can have a big RNG factor), many perks (not every Perk but at least the important ones), the killer and their addons, and much more. Average players sometimes struggle to call out perks or to know the map right. I would say it is not only the problem of we have many killers and survivors have a more difficult time to understand them all but also they have to learn more. However, I think you are aware of it(?), so I want to give some suggestions of how survivors can get more experiences against killers. Thus, I guess we have to be realistic that the average player won't learn everything about every killer because some of them are so uncommen. For example, how often will you face Twins, Artist, or Hag in 100 games? You will meet them one time and then forget everything till the next time. So they rather focus on the more common ones like Blight, Huntress, Nurse, or Wesker. Beyond that, more "complex" features will take their time and easy ones are faster to implement than difficult ones - also keep in mind that there are other things that have higher priority. But here are some ideas/suggestions:

One good step should be to give players a free card for every killer. Let the players test a character for three games in public matches so they get a better understanding of the power, cooldown, addons, and pov. This would also help players who are unsure if the killer fits them. I guess it will be difficult for license characters but easier for the original ones.

Or allow players to play survivor with a AI Killer in custom games. So the player has more time and less stress to understand the killer. Sure, an AI players completly different than a real player but having the option will be helpful for many players.

Tips don't need to be very complicated because even the simple ones will help: for example if I play Hag or watch someone playing Hag, one survivor will always do the mistake to go down next to basement or run into the area where the Hag came from. Trapper: all you have to do is look at the ground and don't go down next to basement. Nurse: use line of sight blockers and stay around it. Xenomorph: don't put turrets next to the station, put them in a safe area where you want to run when the Xenomorph comes out of the station. You can put simple tips like these in the killer description. Make an extra section of "tips against this killer".

During the loading screen, there are very basic tips for survivors that will be useless once they have like 30 - 100h. It would be cool if you could add more tips for survivors. Not about the killers they will face, but about how to be a good teammate because this would already help to focus more on the game and not to worry about your mates. If you have zero hooks and the doh survivor is in chase, maybe protect them; if you see the killer is camping and your two teammates are near the hook, sit on gens so the killer gets less value from their camping; think about which generator you want to repair, sometimes it is better to leave a gen for later that is easier to do or try to avoid a 3gen, One trick that I like sometimes to do is not to look behind me and listen to the audio of the killer - every killer makes a sound when using the power - with this trick, I was able to let Wesker players vault a window so many times and avoid the hit. So, a general tip is to listen to important audio informations.

Keep killers free from bugs and exploits. For example Wesker still has a hug tech exploit in the game and facing this, makes it impossible to react because it is unpredictable and you cannot tell if the Wesker you face can do these tricks. The hitbox of Artist's birds is bugged and smaller than intended, which makes it sometimes confusing why a bird hits and another one not.

A replay feature would be great to see what went wrong. But you already said that a replay feature is not possible. So, is it possible to send the player the full result of the match once it is over? For example when I play soloq and I die before the game is over, I will go next and won't see the killer's build but when I play SWF then I wait till the match is over, so I can see the killers build and can make some conclusions like "had this perk that cut me off guard" or "I was right it was that addon!". To know the killer's build to make some conclusions is so important but difficult to make when you don't see the build and don't want to stay till the end. This feature should be optional to not get annoyed by a pop every single time.

End game chat conversation:

Me: - Hey, guys! Wanna read some useful tips against my killer?

Me: - Oh wait… I'm speaking to myself…

The biggest thing needed is Bot killer games for survivors to learn in. There is 38 killers, even more addons that change powers, and nearly 70 maps they have to know on top of if their perks even work together (Several don't when they should).

I think we mostly agree then! From your original reply, I thought you were suggesting AI killer bots weren’t necessary because of the ability to practice with AI survivor bots or purchased killers. But after your explanation, it seems like you agree that training tools like killer AI bots should be implemented, even though some value can still be gained from playing killer or watching how survivors counter you. Which I do agree with.

If I gave the impression that playing killer doesn’t help you learn counterplay, that wasn’t my intent. I do think it’s a valuable resource for understanding killer mindsets. However, I believe that insight only goes so far compared to actively facing killers yourself. And vice versa, as practicing against AI survivors is a much different experience than actual ones, and while it can help Killers get an idea on how their powers work, test out builds and thigns like that, that value you get is limited as opposed to actually facing real survivors or by teaming up with fellow survivors to face a killer that you yourself main. Also it's worth noting that in this scenario of a player wanting to better survivor so they start practicing as a killer in actual matches, it's going to take time to get to a point where the survivors you face actually make good decisions or show skill that you will want to replicate, as many beginner survivors don't know how to loop, when to unhook, how to run tiles or do anything that you are trying to learn how to do in the first place. You'd be forced to putting in quite a few hours on killer (which in this scenario is not the persons preffered role as their goal is to simply improve as survivor) just to gt to the point where you can better understand how to play against them. Combine this with the fact that survivor and killer gameplay aren’t fully interchangeable, as personal preference and enjoyment can heavily influence which role a player excels at. While “thinking like your enemy” is important, the current system makes it much easier for killers to practice against AI survivors than for survivors to practice countering killers. Survivors have no equivalnt training tool, and buying killers they dont want to play just for practice feels like an unnecessary and slightly unresonable ask.

With the AI killer technology already in use for 2v8 mode, implementing a similar feature for survivor training seems possibleand would provide an equal resource for both sides. It’s a great resource that helps players improve and enjoy the game more regardless of their preferred role.

In any case, I think we’re on the same page for the most part. I’m not saying there’s no value in playing as a killer to learn, but that value is pretty limited when you factor in the paywalls, the time and effort it takes to rank up and face better opponents, and how those restrictions don’t really exist for killers practicing against survivors. It just makes it harder for survivors to get the same benefits killers already have. Either way, I think we can both agree that having more accessible practice tools for everyone would be a good thing. :)

I mean… Yes? i do this, if i want to know, how killers work and how should i counterplay them

i know that they are big. So what? Most "strange name" explained in killer power again, or in game tutorial
"So reading a specific killer power description doesn't seem like a problem, but reading all the killers power descriptions is a difficult task for many people, let alone not forgetting them."
Don't they teach you to read in school?

And so we continue to ask for the system to handle the difficulty of reading and remembering the explanations, and the result is what we have now.

Chucky is not that strong of a killer, but this adjustment has made him a near-weakest killer.

It does have the problem of being small in stature and hard to see.
However, his walking speed is slow and his steins are clearly visible, and he is by no means impossible to chase.

We need to make an effort to play the killer and figure out its capabilities, even if only a little, instead of always saying it is OP and relying on nerfs and systemic responses to the many ways of standing and maneuvering that those who play the killer have thought and tried and created.

with that logic you can nerf/simplify anything in this game, even trapper

During the loading screen you can give a brief breakdown of the killer you're going up against and their power. Maybe add a few easy tips on how to counter it? They already have a simplistic version of this for new players, and it won't effect actual game play outside of the starting 5 seconds.

Oo here it goes. The problem lays with Console players. Not that they are a problem but we do make up a good chunk of players but our Killer picks are limited even though there are so many.

Any killer that has a movement speed like Blight, Nurse, Billy, Bubba, etc is extremely hard for us. Oni especially because he feels so tight on the dash as if your driving on ice with no control. Now we move to this year when killers became complex to use on a controller. Singularity, Venca, Dracula, etc. These require multiple control uses in a fast paced game, something controller players can't afford tp use them if their trying for a 4K. Venca and Dracula are probably the easier of the two and I haven't tried Chucky or Houndmaster yet so I can't speak for them.

Now yesterday I played Alien for the first time in months and his tail whip was so off to add to that changing between hits and tail whip are ridiculous. He really isn't worth playing.

This leaves us with very few to pick from and it seems this what the majority plays. Easy non complex characters without a lot of thought process.

Being a survivor I have seen it isn't about not learning it's the divide of console and PC plus the bugs with synching issues. A console killer has to work harder for those kills against PC players and vice versa because of logistics of it. I really want to know how I stun a killer and then they can hit me over a pallet. Majority of survivor's that give up are tantrums, they don't want to face the same killer, and team mate flubs. It's extremely hard for a console player to go against a PC Blight or Oni couple that with being tunneled or camped and it makes for a miserable game experience. Now it won't stop me from trying but other will get tired of it and just give up because 9 out of 10 you're going to lose.

The only killer I can't successfully counter is Pinhead. Also another reason is because players strictly play survivor and strictly play killer. If people flip flopped more they would get a better understanding of how each killer works and how to counter them.