Toxic slugging

dead is good enough. main goal for killers is to prevent survivors from escaping.

Wrong again, the main objective of the killer is to sacrifice survivors to the entity. You don't accomplish that by bleeding survivors out. You are making up your own "win" conditions.

3 kills is a win by almost every metric. Unfortunately it is not a win for some metrics, like achievements/tome challenges that require a 4K. The only time a 3K is not a win, is when you are going for a 4K specifically.

And this is coming from someone who is very against either of the hatch's iterations, but understands why they are in the game.

Yes, the finisher mori has made this pretty much standard too and because I pretty much only play solo queue (SWF very rarely), nobody really cares to risk their butt to help you if you're the poor sod stuck bleeding out for 4 minutes while your team mate hides.

The problem is the finisher mori and the hatch mechanic and I think we have two issues with those. The hatch isn't going anywhere and I suspect BHVR are looking to monetise moris by connecting them to specific cosmetics etc, so they are going to want to promote moris as much as possible.

So I don't think these annoying mechanics are going anywhere and there needs to be other mechanics introduced to stop paying customers from constantly having their time wasted bleeding out for 4 minutes while a killer wastes everyone's time

For a 3k apparantly being a win it surely doesnt give a "win bonus" like a 4k.

Complaining about people wanting to 4k is like complaining about wanting to escape once the doors are open.

Its also funny how people are allowed to delay the disadvantageous EGC by 99ing the door but stopping the hatch from opening by the slug is frowned upon, such hypocrisy.

Not hypocrisy at all. The third survivor player in a slug for 4k situation is forced to do nothing for up to several minutes except to stay on the ground bleeding. Meanwhile, the killer is still able to actively play the game and gets an extremely easy fourth kill.

99ing the gates isn't like that at all. The killer is still fully able to pursue their goal.

The difference is how in a slug for 4k, the third survivor gets forced to remain in such a pointless situation and the fourth survivor has virtually no chance at escape, all while the killer is still fully able to participate in the match. When a gate is 99ed, all players still get to participate in their goal with a reasonable chance at success.

I think part of the issue is that a win/loss isn't clearly identified after the match so a win is up to the individual to interpret it as a win. For example some feel 3k is a win based on MMR going up as a result. Some feel 4k is a win based on the bonus BP and achievements 4k results in. Some even believe 2k against a 4man swf is a win as they stopped the whole team getting out. Survivor are the same, some teams believe they win by getting everyone out. Some believe they win via hatch (even tho it doesn't count positively for MMR) some even believe it's a win if they can simply loop the killer the whole match and be the sole survivor. Some people believe a win is getting most BP score post match regardless if they survived or not.

Very true. This is why I often write 'win' and 'loss' in quotes.

My feeling is that this isn't a game about winning and losing in some conventional sense, but about having fun in the experience of playing the game. It does lead to conflicting pictures of what's fun though :/

This is also very true. Once you have that 3k it's not entirely that hard to get the 4k if you push hard. Again, the game counts "a win" as being "killing one survivor/escaping one killer", so winning or losing a 1v1. It then amalgamates all four 1v1s to see how many points you get and determine a Killer "ranking " (that is, Entity Hungers, Brutal, Ruthless, Merciless). While Killers just have to see how many 1v1s they can win by eliminating the Surv (therefore they can win up to four times a round), the Survivor has to escape the Killer without being eliminated to win.

So if anything, Killers get much more leeway on whether or not they won any amount of the game at all, but Survivors are judged on if they lost or not more harshly. That's probably why some people are so angry Survivors don't "win" as much as Killers, it's because for Survivors it's binary but for Killers it's a scale between 0-4… and you therefore, only lose as Killer if you 0k.

tl;dr - Killer is a mode about being in a canned deer hunt, where you have four deer, and you're supposed to eliminate as many as you can. Survivor is a party mode about trying to escape with your friends, or die trying. Killer is the more complex "combo rush" mode but Survivor is the simplified "arcade mode" where you're supposed to try and either win or lose. Killer is "do your best", Survivor is "survival horror in a setting where the odds are against you".

And that's what people don't get, I think.

Agreed.

In the last couple weeks, I've been hitting a point where a lot of times I think about playing survivor and just don't because somehow a lot of people think it's okay to force their fellow players to get chased and eliminated all game and nothing else, or to play bleedout simulator at 2 survivors left. Then they make sure to wait for the mori just to ensure it's clear they've 'won'.

BHVR should probably do something about the game's health.

Or the Survivors just seriously misplayed.
I was able to slug 4 people at 4-5 gens with Trapper because some of them just kept rushing hooks before I even left the area and another would keep trying to blind me.

It’s not always Killer OP or Matchmaking Bad (though I do think MMR could be improved), a lot of times, the fault is on Survivors for making the wrong choices, not because they weren’t skilled

Correct, it’s sometimes the Survivors misplay, the Killer being too strong, the Killer Player being more skilled or MMR just totally screwing up everyone.

They only time I’ve ever blee people out is if they crawl away and I can’t find them, they have up at 5 gens and wanted to ruin the match for their team, they brought in an anti-hook build or they were just totally toxic(I’m spiteful sometimes). Otherwise, there’s no reason for it, especially now that hooks respawn after someone dies on them.

I do believe the Devs should reduce the bleed out timer to 2 minutes or at the very least test it for a weekend like they did with the no Bloodlust weekend (or was that just a day?). It would push Killers to pick up sooner while also make Survivors play a little more careful and force them off of gens sooner. Maybe even affect the meta by having people choose an anti-slug perk. And getting bled out wouldn’t be as miserable since it’s only two minutes.

Ah yes, we have a Dr in my region (OCE) who does exactly this, they are well known for doing this and it has gone on for YEARS. I don't know why players are forced to endure this with no way to get out of it

I just had a singularity run a full slugging build with slugging addons. Not a single hook. just slugged and BMd us on the ground. two people bled out, one was moried after being humped for several minutes and the other got out via gate. this was in the christmas game mode.

I feel game sense and mechanical skill are correlated when talking about overall skill. Making bad choices would reflect overall skill.

I'd slug way less for the 4k if the last 2 survivors wouldn't constantly hide waiting for the other to be found so they can get hatch

I see just as many survivors playing hide and seek for 10+ minutes because someone MUST get hatch.

I care. Bleedouts suck. I'll only do it when there's a very BM survivor or team.

ofc matchmaking is bad… in one of my first game as killer i slugged whole bully squad, i barely knew what slugging is or hatch. now i can't play as killer because i play against much much better surv teams

They are. Their only chance is the hatch.

And yes, everyone can get UB. Which can only be used once per trial. And even if you get up, it is very difficult for the 2 remaining survivors to do the remaining gens, unless there was only one gen left to fix and one of the three gens available to repair already had a lot of progress, but that isn't a scenario you're likely to see.

They don't always use it because sometimes they can't. Survivors are always told to bring a perk against every killer strategy in the game. Just run anti-camp, just run anti-tunnel, just run anti-slug, just run something to counter the slowdown, just run something for healing, and the newest one, just run Counterforce.

You can't counter everything.

don't blame killer for slugging

It is their choice.

don't waste everyone's time.

Slugging IS the waste of time, thats the point. A match where the killer kills the third survivor and goes for the hatch doesn't waste anyone's time.

if killer is slugging for last kill it means that last survivor is hiding and leaving one teammate. that's not fair to that slugged one

I don't think that is correct.

The killer could have missed the other one because he didn't patrol the areas he should have. The killer could have brought Knock Out and tried to slug everyone from the start. The killer could simply just want to see the mori. There are countless reasons why it happens, but at the end of the day it is their choice.

And, like or not, stealth is part of the game.

Even in the very specific scenario you've mentioned, I guarantee you the slugged survivor would rather you kill them and let the other get hatch than do nothing on the ground for 4 minutes.

Doesn't justify wasting someone else's time.

I have never bled anyone out for 4 mins straight as that is boring and risky because the survivor is just going to get up vs 1 2 3 your out with hook states. However, slugging itself isnt toxic and I think its viable but for the killers that just use knockout and sug survivors to bleed them out only, is silly. I get the denial of certain perks but at that point just go play pyramid head and cage them. It would be better for both parties.