Toxic slugging
Comments
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Wrong again, the main objective of the killer is to sacrifice survivors to the entity. You don't accomplish that by bleeding survivors out. You are making up your own "win" conditions.
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And? You don’t accomplish that with a mori either. If the survivor is dead, they’re dead. Makes no difference if they bled out, hooked, moried, or if Maurice fell from the sky and landed on them. Dead.
Next topic.3 -
3 kills is a win by almost every metric. Unfortunately it is not a win for some metrics, like achievements/tome challenges that require a 4K. The only time a 3K is not a win, is when you are going for a 4K specifically.
And this is coming from someone who is very against either of the hatch's iterations, but understands why they are in the game.
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Because it is a horrible very toxic design, there really isn't any other games that say "Yea it's totally A okay to make it where the other side cannot play whatsoever."
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Yes, the finisher mori has made this pretty much standard too and because I pretty much only play solo queue (SWF very rarely), nobody really cares to risk their butt to help you if you're the poor sod stuck bleeding out for 4 minutes while your team mate hides.
The problem is the finisher mori and the hatch mechanic and I think we have two issues with those. The hatch isn't going anywhere and I suspect BHVR are looking to monetise moris by connecting them to specific cosmetics etc, so they are going to want to promote moris as much as possible.
So I don't think these annoying mechanics are going anywhere and there needs to be other mechanics introduced to stop paying customers from constantly having their time wasted bleeding out for 4 minutes while a killer wastes everyone's time
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Wrong again, you are on a wrong streak, are you going for some type of achievement? Mori has counted as a kill since since at least patch 6.5.0, bleeding out is just about the only thing that doesn't count. It does make a difference how survivors die if a killer wants to complete their objective. You are arguing against what the game is doing, you can go an play it and see for yourself or read the manual if you still don't understand.
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Judging by how pips are calculated actually, yeah, a 3k is a win. You're incorrect. If it ups your MMR and pips you, then it's a win. The definition of a win is "not a tie or a loss". A 2k is a tie, and a 1k is considered a loss.
But reminder - the game calculates kills itself as a 1v1 against an individual Survivor. So a 1k is also a win on that one Survivor. You're not judged for how many you Kill necessarily, the game sees a 1k as 1 win and a 4k as 4 wins. You're just supposed to Kill as many as you can or want to, not "kill 'em all". That's a holdover from when you could lose pips. You can't anymore.
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But you can't design the game around the last survivor being helpless, either.
The moment you can secure a 3k, you've already won. The last one escaping isn't a big deal.
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For a 3k apparantly being a win it surely doesnt give a "win bonus" like a 4k.
Complaining about people wanting to 4k is like complaining about wanting to escape once the doors are open.
Its also funny how people are allowed to delay the disadvantageous EGC by 99ing the door but stopping the hatch from opening by the slug is frowned upon, such hypocrisy.
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as a killer i you know they are 99%ing a gate you can open it your self too.
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Not hypocrisy at all. The third survivor player in a slug for 4k situation is forced to do nothing for up to several minutes except to stay on the ground bleeding. Meanwhile, the killer is still able to actively play the game and gets an extremely easy fourth kill.
99ing the gates isn't like that at all. The killer is still fully able to pursue their goal.
The difference is how in a slug for 4k, the third survivor gets forced to remain in such a pointless situation and the fourth survivor has virtually no chance at escape, all while the killer is still fully able to participate in the match. When a gate is 99ed, all players still get to participate in their goal with a reasonable chance at success.
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Horrific comparison.
what even is this?
99ing a door doesnt make you lose basic control of your character and you have to sit around for someone else to come open it for you for several minutes.
You know, the whole point of people disliking being slugged?
SMH my head.4 -
I think part of the issue is that a win/loss isn't clearly identified after the match so a win is up to the individual to interpret it as a win. For example some feel 3k is a win based on MMR going up as a result. Some feel 4k is a win based on the bonus BP and achievements 4k results in. Some even believe 2k against a 4man swf is a win as they stopped the whole team getting out. Survivor are the same, some teams believe they win by getting everyone out. Some believe they win via hatch (even tho it doesn't count positively for MMR) some even believe it's a win if they can simply loop the killer the whole match and be the sole survivor. Some people believe a win is getting most BP score post match regardless if they survived or not.
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I really dont care if the game tells me I got the "kill" or not. I got my 3k or 4k so what difference does it make other than you being bent out of shape over a bleed out.
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Very true. This is why I often write 'win' and 'loss' in quotes.
My feeling is that this isn't a game about winning and losing in some conventional sense, but about having fun in the experience of playing the game. It does lead to conflicting pictures of what's fun though :/
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I'm not sure BHVR should clearly define a win then, but should make it so ALL those are equal ways of "winning" so nobody feels like "less" of a player and the game feels less competitive-minded. If it's a party game like they want, then all these ways of winning should be equally valid and DISPLAYED as such.
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This is also very true. Once you have that 3k it's not entirely that hard to get the 4k if you push hard. Again, the game counts "a win" as being "killing one survivor/escaping one killer", so winning or losing a 1v1. It then amalgamates all four 1v1s to see how many points you get and determine a Killer "ranking " (that is, Entity Hungers, Brutal, Ruthless, Merciless). While Killers just have to see how many 1v1s they can win by eliminating the Surv (therefore they can win up to four times a round), the Survivor has to escape the Killer without being eliminated to win.
So if anything, Killers get much more leeway on whether or not they won any amount of the game at all, but Survivors are judged on if they lost or not more harshly. That's probably why some people are so angry Survivors don't "win" as much as Killers, it's because for Survivors it's binary but for Killers it's a scale between 0-4… and you therefore, only lose as Killer if you 0k.
tl;dr - Killer is a mode about being in a canned deer hunt, where you have four deer, and you're supposed to eliminate as many as you can. Survivor is a party mode about trying to escape with your friends, or die trying. Killer is the more complex "combo rush" mode but Survivor is the simplified "arcade mode" where you're supposed to try and either win or lose. Killer is "do your best", Survivor is "survival horror in a setting where the odds are against you".
And that's what people don't get, I think.2 -
Had this several times today and it just adds to the frustration of annoying killers with obnoxious builds who want to prolong the misery of matches because gotta get that 4k….
I feel a break is coming on for me and DBD, I just cant do this every day.
I have not escaped a SINGLE time today and the only fun killer we had was a Huntress who DC'd
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Well if a killer can slug the entire team either the killer is broken or matchmaking is, sometimes both.
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It matters because we are playing an online game against other humans who expect players to participate in normal gameplay. If this was a tabletop game played in person, you would never be invited back to play again.
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Agreed.
In the last couple weeks, I've been hitting a point where a lot of times I think about playing survivor and just don't because somehow a lot of people think it's okay to force their fellow players to get chased and eliminated all game and nothing else, or to play bleedout simulator at 2 survivors left. Then they make sure to wait for the mori just to ensure it's clear they've 'won'.
BHVR should probably do something about the game's health.
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Well guess what. Its not a taple top game. Its an Massive Multiplayer Online Video Game. So these things happen. At worst your slugged for 4 minutes. (I dont personally slug people for 4 minutes.) but big whoop. There are perks to help counter this if it irritates you that much.
At the end of the day you are pointing your fingers at the wrong people. BHVR says, we can slug and bleed out, they made that mechanic. Take it up with them.
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Or the Survivors just seriously misplayed.
I was able to slug 4 people at 4-5 gens with Trapper because some of them just kept rushing hooks before I even left the area and another would keep trying to blind me.It’s not always Killer OP or Matchmaking Bad (though I do think MMR could be improved), a lot of times, the fault is on Survivors for making the wrong choices, not because they weren’t skilled
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It definitely happens both ways. I've occasionally full-team slugged a non-bully squad with Pig. That shouldn't even be possible.
Of course, I don't let them bleed out if that happens. And if it happens early in the match, I put some of them on hooks and then let one wiggle off so we can have the rest of the match...
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Correct, it’s sometimes the Survivors misplay, the Killer being too strong, the Killer Player being more skilled or MMR just totally screwing up everyone.
They only time I’ve ever blee people out is if they crawl away and I can’t find them, they have up at 5 gens and wanted to ruin the match for their team, they brought in an anti-hook build or they were just totally toxic(I’m spiteful sometimes). Otherwise, there’s no reason for it, especially now that hooks respawn after someone dies on them.
I do believe the Devs should reduce the bleed out timer to 2 minutes or at the very least test it for a weekend like they did with the no Bloodlust weekend (or was that just a day?). It would push Killers to pick up sooner while also make Survivors play a little more careful and force them off of gens sooner. Maybe even affect the meta by having people choose an anti-slug perk. And getting bled out wouldn’t be as miserable since it’s only two minutes.
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Unfortunately I just had one of those, with the exact type of build you've mentioned:
Props to this Nea because her last chase was good, really gave Doc a run for his money, but with Knock Out in effect I don't think she was able to find anyone (and I have a strong suspicion someone was downed inside the tower).
But this is ridiculous.
Some players are pushing it too far, to the point where I am certain something will be done to address this situation. And if we get an anti-slug mechanic, I hope it is way stronger than the AFC. I don't think this specific playstyle should still be allowed to exist.
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Ah yes, we have a Dr in my region (OCE) who does exactly this, they are well known for doing this and it has gone on for YEARS. I don't know why players are forced to endure this with no way to get out of it
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I don't know why players are forced to endure this with no way to get out of it
Exactly.
Its about time to change that, it is getting unbearable.
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I just had a singularity run a full slugging build with slugging addons. Not a single hook. just slugged and BMd us on the ground. two people bled out, one was moried after being humped for several minutes and the other got out via gate. this was in the christmas game mode.
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That's sad. I just did a four winter hook challenge and spent the rest of the match ambushing survivors from stealth with snowskulls. I hope you get a killer like me for the event some time :)
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I feel game sense and mechanical skill are correlated when talking about overall skill. Making bad choices would reflect overall skill.
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While I fully agree that this is excessive, shouldn't exist, and needs to be dealt with by the devs, I have little hope of that actually occurring.
So far I don't think we've even had acknowledgement from them that there is a problem, and any solution they provide will be at most as effective as AFC, since any mechanic will likely involve a base kit way for killers to work around the effect.
I think a rework and redesign of knock out is necessary, far easier in the short term, and less prone to unintended side effects. But I don't even see that happening any time soon, unfortunately.
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I'd slug way less for the 4k if the last 2 survivors wouldn't constantly hide waiting for the other to be found so they can get hatch
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slugging just for slugging is toxic i agree and once i slugged whole team because i couldn't hook anyone (they were literally bullying me around shack) so i left them on the ground. i only slug for 4th kill and sometimes i pick up 3rd and let them leave but campers won't change their mind.
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I see just as many survivors playing hide and seek for 10+ minutes because someone MUST get hatch.
I care. Bleedouts suck. I'll only do it when there's a very BM survivor or team.
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I think there is a chance something will be done, because some players are really pushing it too far. There hasn't been any acknowledgement yet, but there might be.
Or at least I hope so.
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ofc matchmaking is bad… in one of my first game as killer i slugged whole bully squad, i barely knew what slugging is or hatch. now i can't play as killer because i play against much much better surv teams
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last one is not hopeless and anti slug perk is from free surv
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They are. Their only chance is the hatch.
And yes, everyone can get UB. Which can only be used once per trial. And even if you get up, it is very difficult for the 2 remaining survivors to do the remaining gens, unless there was only one gen left to fix and one of the three gens available to repair already had a lot of progress, but that isn't a scenario you're likely to see.
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if they don't use pekrk it's not my problem. if you chose not to use certain perks that can let you win/escape by hatch then it's your choice. don't blame killer for slugging to get full team down especially when last surv is hiding and forcing killer to chase after him XD. sooo if 2 can't win then why we even talking about slugging for 4k? you can't win with one mate so give up, don't waste everyone's time.
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They don't always use it because sometimes they can't. Survivors are always told to bring a perk against every killer strategy in the game. Just run anti-camp, just run anti-tunnel, just run anti-slug, just run something to counter the slowdown, just run something for healing, and the newest one, just run Counterforce.
You can't counter everything.
don't blame killer for slugging
It is their choice.
don't waste everyone's time.
Slugging IS the waste of time, thats the point. A match where the killer kills the third survivor and goes for the hatch doesn't waste anyone's time.
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ofc you can't counter everything, killers cant do it too. if killer is slugging for last kill it means that last survivor is hiding and leaving one teammate. that's not fair to that slugged one. but nobody is talking about that, funny thing. the last survivor is the one wasting time beacuse he force killer to look for him instead of just killing 3rd, because if he kills 3rd right away then camper will 90% win, but he don't deserve hatch after hiding xD, he did not earn, 3rd one deserved because he tried but got caught.
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if killer is slugging for last kill it means that last survivor is hiding and leaving one teammate. that's not fair to that slugged one
I don't think that is correct.
The killer could have missed the other one because he didn't patrol the areas he should have. The killer could have brought Knock Out and tried to slug everyone from the start. The killer could simply just want to see the mori. There are countless reasons why it happens, but at the end of the day it is their choice.
And, like or not, stealth is part of the game.
Even in the very specific scenario you've mentioned, I guarantee you the slugged survivor would rather you kill them and let the other get hatch than do nothing on the ground for 4 minutes.
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stealth is one thing but hiding like a p**** is just toxic as much as slugging and not killing is.
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Doesn't justify wasting someone else's time.
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Hiding to evade the killer is a method of trying to enable an escape, either for the hiding survivor or even for their teammate. The last survivor in a slug for 4k situation will very often hide while sneaking to the slug in order to get the save.
And sure, on rare occasions, the last two survivors will both hide for hatch, but as killer I almost never see both doing it. And as survivor, I'll hide to get a moment to get my bearings, and then go do gens. I rarely see the last two survivors manage to hide for minutes at a time. And even if it happens, killer instinct kicks in to prevent a long hide-and-seek match.
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I have never bled anyone out for 4 mins straight as that is boring and risky because the survivor is just going to get up vs 1 2 3 your out with hook states. However, slugging itself isnt toxic and I think its viable but for the killers that just use knockout and sug survivors to bleed them out only, is silly. I get the denial of certain perks but at that point just go play pyramid head and cage them. It would be better for both parties.
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I see it at least once every few days, sometimes multiple times a day. Sometimes it's hiding for hatch, sometimes it's hiding to BM or just to grief.
The problem is that there are ways to avoid AFK crows completely, these have been around forever and they either cannot or have no interest in fixing. I've had people do this for over 20 minutes before, just going from locker to locker.
It's 100% a problem. Maybe 1 killer in 20 will do it, especially on games where they clearly had a bad time of it. While it's annoying, it's not 20 minutes of wasted time annoying.
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and i can say the same thing about survivor who is hiding and forcing killer to look for him ;)
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and killer's job is to make sure survivors cant escape… if that require slugging one guy then i'll do it every single time.
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