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Double Invocation...
Why do they require 2 cast, why can it not work like Boon 1 cast?
Another reason why Invocation should never be ran such terrible design.
Comments
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it would be OP
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OP… OP was Boon healing when it came out this is not OP it is throwing the game
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This would make sense... if the Invocations had different drawbacks and were actually worrh running.
Right now, it's just another reason to avoid them
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I can almost imagine the internal discussion between the art director, design director, and the actual programmers.
This is how the conversation goes in my head:
~
Art Director: "So we're going to use different symbols in the center of the invocation circles to give each invocation a different identity!"
Design Director: "This makes a lot of sense and helps with clarity and nuance. It will add value to the game and increase the value of the perk. Lets do it!"
AD: "I already had my people work very hard and put in many hours designing, drafting and coming up with a new symbol for the new perk power - I'm looking forward to seeing it employed in the game."
DD: "This looks great! Internal design tests show that it works flawlessly! We've done several playtests and put in the heavy work to make this work and look unique!"
AD: "I'm glad the work is over, because my people have to work on other projects for future deadlines!"
DD: "Same - we've spent a lot of time and money on this aspect of development, too much time! And the most important thing is that each Invocation has its own symbol for the players to enjoy :)"
Programmers: "Hey guys, you did great making the perk work and everything. However, you tested it in a vacuum to make it work. Now that it's actually passed to us to put it into a releasable build, we now see a conflict between both invocations whenever players try to use both."
> ????.png
Programmers: "We actually had a similar thing with the Boon chapter, but we could code it to fire all perks in the survivor's build at once when the effect is applied."
DD: "Yes! Do that!"
Programmer: "Okay, but they both have pointers to separate art assets in the build. We could code it to use one over the other in circumstances where-"
DD: "NO."
AD: "NO!!"> uhoh.png
DD: "They have to use their separate assets, the work cannot be for nothing!"
Programmer: "Uhhh, okay… so what do you want me to do ? the PTB deadline is coming up and I need to fix this issue…"
AD: "We are NOT compromising the characteristics of these perks… besides, the art team is already hard at work with other projects."
DD: "Okay, listen, just make them fire on separate triggers. If players want to run both, they can use the perks separately to justify the unique assets our internal team designed."
Programmer: "Alright but - won't players hate that? Won't they ask why?"
DD: "We'll tell them that each perk is balanced for the 60s investment and that if they want the value of both perks, they will have to sink 120s to trigger them - or something - anything. Look, I had to win lots of pre-production debates to get these assets cleared and the execs are going to hate to hear we scrapped anything else. We've used a lot of money and time to do this, it's very silly, but it will take more time to correct it. Maybe we can make a different asset in the future after we bring it up with higher ups and get the work scheduled out - but we really don't have the time, money, or resources to fix this issue with the art assets. I'm afraid that until we can give it proper attention, players are just going to have to do them with different triggers."
Programmer: "No problemo, boss! I'll just map it to a different button."
The day is saved ! :)8 -
Would it really be OP though? Permanent broken for the rest of the trial, 60 seconds in basement + killer notified on completion, and 2 perk slots in return for a BNP on every gen and situational aura read doesn't seem OP to me.
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As a disincentive for survivors to run them. BHVR knows these are killer perks. They’ve done everything possible to reinforce that into survivors.
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How?
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Rework: if you use two Invocations at the same time, you will be permanently put in the dying state for the remainder of the trial.
But hey, you can see the killers aura while they come to pick you up in the basement.
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You have to think further. Much further. These will not be the only Invocation Perks. More are guaranteed to come. Imagine 4 Invocation Perks all activated at once. Those are powerful effects for all survivors, and for the price of just one Broken effect and 60s (if you do it solo). That would be way too powerful. Not to mention SWF in combination with that.
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Because they all share the same downside already of being broken, it wouldn't make sense to also be allowed to overlap the time spent on them.
The only reason it wouldn't necessarily be overpowered right now is because Treacherous Crows is a bad perk and needs a buff. But eventually if you could do 4 strong invocations (assuming all of them are as strong as they should be, which Treacherous Crows currently isn't) all in 60 seconds it could be too much.
Weaving Spiders is almost in a good spot as it is tbh, it just needs to be changed to not get countered by gen blocking, there should not be a risk that you spend 60 seconds in basement for the perk to do absolutely nothing if Grim Embrace happened to be up when you finished it.
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If they release more then maybe, but no reason not to have them both activate at once for now imo. Given what has happened to teamwork perks I think it might be a while before we see another invocation.
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Until that day comes, it will be 2030 already.
Plus, they will probably just create something like "One random pallet gets rebuilt, but only if you do it on a Friday exactly at midnight. You also get broken. And the pallet can be also broken in 0.2 seconds."
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It wouldn't at the moment, but if you could compress what would ordinarily be a 240 second time investment into 60 seconds by the time there's four invocations, that -could- potentially be overpowered. Especially since BHVR have now cemented that all invocations MUST take 60 seconds and HAVE to make you perma-broken.
BHVR painted themselves into an absolute corner by doubling down on the garbage design of Weaving Spiders. They knew it didn't work and went 'what the heck, let's apply this faulty design to ALL future perks in this category'.
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Yes, Im thinking now. BHVR has made different perk types in the past and left them in the dust (teamwork). If this really becomes a big category of perks, then im willing to see that it might become goodish. Right now though? Even with both being activated at the same time its not worth it in my book. The risk is too high.
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Well, that's the thing. With the release of Treacherous Crows, BHVR has cemented that Invocations will always be below F-tier in quality. 60 seconds of invocation time + permabroken is a deficit that could only be made balanced by giving it some fundamentally broken effect on the other side. And they're not going to do that, because that would likely be horrid to play against. So they go big on the risk/investment cost, but then slam the brakes on the reward to ensure the perk gets buried below the bottom of the trashbin.
As @Ayodam says, these are effectively killer perks, and as long as they have the investment cost that they do, the entire category of perks is a complete write-off.
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The only way you could justify allowing them all to be done at once is if they all had a different penalty for completing them, which you could do, but then any future invocation perks would likely have to be weaker than Weaving Spiders as most realistic penalties you could impose aren't going to be as impactful as being Broken permanently. Then it would be fine to allow them all to be done in 60 seconds, as they each have their own separate downside.
Combining Weaving Spiders and Treacherous Crows right now wouldn't be overpowered, because Treacherous Crows is an underpowered perk and should get buffed. But none of the invocations should be solely balanced around being combined with others, all of them should be able to stand up on their own (and Treacherous Crows currently doesn't).
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This is not about whether the benefits are strong or weak. Have you not seen what happened to the blessings in the beginning? Have you learned nothing? That's right, you know everything better again. That makes no sense
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Sadly have to agree. It's a shame though. The core idea is definitely salvageable.
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nothing changed with blessings. Circle of healing was busted and got nerfed, none of the other boons ever played a part and none of them aside from COH have been changed since released.
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I TOLD YOU.
This is not about whether the single benefits are strong or weak.
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How many times do we have to post this?
Because Invocations are permanent effects that change the game. They're intended to permanently change the game in your favor in exchange for a mere minute of your time in the basement. You can snuff Boons, you can destroy Hexes, but the Killer can do nothing once an Invocation is cast. Because that's the point of Invocations.
Why should we have multiple game-changing, game stacking effects go off together? If you want to have that much game-changing power, then bring your two Invocations and do them. I mean do you really think it's fair to subject a Trapper to forever aura read and also less charges on one gen? I don't think so. That sounds OP to me.
There's an argument to be made for changing the effect doing an Invocation has, like maybe Treacherous Crows shouldn't perma Break you and should perma Blind you instead. But there is none, not one, except "Because I wanna win even harder and be superman against M1s that cannot handle it" for asking for Invocations to stack this way. I mean what if we get an even stronger one and Invocations can stack? Imagine Weaving, Crows, some Invocation that gives permanent 3% Haste, and some Invocation that permanently reduces the Killer's speed by 5% or something. Imagine that. And they all stack.
If they want to do more Invocations in the future, they cannot have them stack. Because four people can bring them and then have a bunch of things stacked in their favor so the Killer can't do ANYTHING. Like it or not, Invocations need to stay unstackable. Or do you want Killers buffed even more to handle the possibility of an Invocation meta? I don't.
Don't buff Invocations by making them stack. Buff them by buffing what they do individually so you only need to take one.
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If I Invocate I just pretend the killer is Legion.
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Yes, and why do you think boons are allowed to be multicast and no others have been changed? Because combined they are still not a problem. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.
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That would probably be the best.
I hate the "one size fits all" way they are handling them atm. The broken is outweighing the advantages of both perks currently.
But, the problem isn't in the timer, hell, I'd argue that 60 seconds is just right. But it's the drawbacks and weird conditions that drag them into uselessness.
Weawing Spiders having a random chance of getting randomly blocked? Treacherous Crows only working based on a terror radius?
I don't even think the numbers are that weak, it's just the downsides that drag it down.
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they're like hex perks on killer end. High risk, Low reward. i still think the invocations should have a looping effect where they trigger multiple times per match after being finished to make them high reward, high risk.
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Future invocations being able to set 4 super weapons off for the rest of the round at the price of 1 person being slightly easier to catch. Killer cant reverse the effects either like breaking a hex or kicking a boon out. It would be pretty unfair.
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I wouldn't exactly call these powerful: Brand new part on each generator that can't be regressed. Killer spooked a crow, you see their aura for 2 seconds if a survivor is in their terror radius.
People tried to show that Weaving Spiders could be good, but that realistically required a SWF whose goal was to pop 5 gens that already had most of the work done and taking advantage of the limited gen regression a killer could do. Yet its more of a trap perk for solo play because of the lack of coordination and that if you do that, your just making yourself an easier target.
The invocations injuring the survivor and applying permanent broken status is part of what actually holds them back from solo play. If it was a temporary broken status, you could work around that, just survive how many ever seconds and then heal up, meaning you could bring Strength in Shadows, or Self Care, or even just a Medkit to heal yourself up.
This is also why Taurie is partly seen as Sable 2. As her perks follow a similar mechanical themeing (an invocation with permanent broken as a cost, a healing perk, a hook-related perk, and one of those gives aura reading to see the killer). In addition the healing perk and the invocation perk have anti-synergy with each other.
Like what your really imagining is this kind of ideal scenario for it to be even remotely strong: Invocations applied a temporary broken status, you brought all four of them, all four would be completed at the same time, and that you brought a medkit with a syringe.1 -
You can't compare blessings with invocations.
"You can snuff Boons, you can destroy Hexes, but the Killer can do nothing once an Invocation is cast. Because that's the point of Invocations"
"It's about the whole package. You're comparing apples with bananas.
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You were the one who brought up blessings as a comparison when you said:
This is not about whether the benefits are strong or weak. Have you not seen what happened to the blessings in the beginning? Have you learned nothing? That's right, you know everything better again. That makes no sense
As things stand, the effects of weaving spiders and treacherous crows would not be OP put together, even on a 60 second invocation, because of the broken downside. As things stand, they would be fine combined. As for what the killer can do when an invocation is cast, go to the basement, you now have a survivor who broadcast their position to you and can not be healed for the rest of the game.
If new invocations complicate things further, they can make it so stacking invocations makes the ritual take longer. But right now, I don't see any reasonable argument for why the current two invocation perks shouldn't be able to be cast at the same time.
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If they did that then the Killer would have to be able to destroy them permanently like Survs can Hexes. Imagine continuously looping Weaving Spiders. Multiple 10 charges off all gens in three minutes? That would be hellishly unfair.
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"If new invocations complicate things further, they can make it so stacking invocations makes the ritual take longer. But right now, I don't see any reasonable argument for why the current two invocation perks shouldn't be able to be cast at the same time."
That is yet to come. Wait and see
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Oh my gosh, if we had all those different effects stacking maybe the kill rate would go down to 58, or, god forbid, maybe even 55%.
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I'd like the invocations to stack, the effects by themselves aren't worth it and it could make for some interesting builds. If it becomes a balance issue, make each additional invocation you bring make the ritual take like 20 seconds longer or something. Another thing they could do for balance is make each invocation have its own unique downside, then using multiple can make you quite the weak link with many different debuffs.
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