We have temporarily disabled The Houndmaster (Bone Chill Event queue) and Baermar Uraz's Ugly Sweater Cosmetic (all queues) due to issues affecting gameplay.

Visit the Kill Switch Master List for more information on these and other current known issues: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/299-kill-switch-master-list
The Dead by Daylight team would like your feedback in a Player Satisfaction survey.

We encourage you to be as honest as possible in letting us know how you feel about the game. The information and answers provided are anonymous, not shared with any third-party, and will not be used for purposes other than survey analysis.

Access the survey HERE!

Survivor is no longer fun

thrkeybs
thrkeybs Member Posts: 17
edited December 19 in General Discussions

This isn't a topic about balance. I'm not interested in which side you think is stronger, or what needs a nerf. The topic at hand is fun, enjoyment: jouissance.

Survivor is no longer a fun role.

Strictly speaking about how the role "feels", there is no joy in playing survivor anymore.

Being slugged on the ground for 4 minutes is not fun.

Watching a killer proxy camp you, only to immediately chase you and tunnel you out is not fun.

What was fun about this game was the reward of learning loops, pallets, timings. If you played enough, you were rewarded with learning how to get better. If you spent time researching how to play the different tiles, it then became a game of chess between you and the killer: who could better mind game a loop, who could better read the other player.

This is no longer the case, as most tiles have been turned into unsafe loops, where your best play is to force a 50/50.

Most killers are no longer even interested in looping, and understandably so. Why chase a survivor in a strong tile when you can tunnel their teammate out? Lower risk, higher reward.

I know this has been talked about ad nauseam on the forums, but the finisher Mori has really incentivized another really unfun aspect: you already lost the game, as it's just you and someone else, but now you're forced to crawl around on the floor so that the killer can watch their Mori.

Again, I'm not interested in the strength of any of the things I've mentioned — I don't care. I care about having fun, enjoying the game I've paid money for and spent a lot of time investing into. There has to be a way that BHVR can make the game more enjoyable for both sides, and that's what I'm interested in.

Edit: I'm going to compile the grievances that people post in this thread here, so that the feedback can be passed efficiently to designers of the game.

Compilation of Grievances found in this thread:

Survivors

  • Being slugged feels uninteractive and boring (This includes waiting for the killer to find other survivor for finisher Mori, but also things like 4k slugging)
  • Gen / healing / totem time feels like a slog and also boring
  • Map Design
    • Unsafe pallets discourage looping or more in-depth strategic play
    • Massive dead zones

Killers

  • Gens are being done too quickly
  • Hooks do not have enough incentive when compared to slugging

Post edited by thrkeybs on
«13

Comments

  • Prometheus1092
    Prometheus1092 Member Posts: 581

    To be honest when I was survivor main I found loops and sitting on gens boring. Circling around the killer shack with ease just didn't feel rewarding to me. I do find fun it going into survivor match with the mindset of "I probably won't survive but let's see what BP and goals I can get done, maybe get a few gens done and help others escape." My advice is approach survivor mode from a different angle, especially in soloq because you can bet other people in solo are doing adepts and totem challenges and other things. I find fun in that anyway

  • thrkeybs
    thrkeybs Member Posts: 17

    100% — and this is where I think the discussion usually takes a turn into killer versus survivor gameplay, but I want to zoom out and think a bit more imaginatively:

    What if BHVR made the game more fun for both sides? What if there were design implementations where both sides get rewarded?

    After all, this is a fantasy game, and literally anything is possible.

  • NarkoTri1er
    NarkoTri1er Member Posts: 658

    my fun factor in playing survivor is tied to improving my chase and macro gameplay, meaning i won't really care about what gameplay style killer uses until it's bleeding out just in an attempt to be a jerk

  • I_Cant_Loop
    I_Cant_Loop Member Posts: 701

    Everybody is going to have a different opinion on what the kill rates should be, so it's pointless to try to convince people one way or the other. The fact of the matter is that when kill rates were lower, killer numbers were way down as evidenced by the extremely long survivor queue times that we had. BHVR have decided that the sweet spot for balancing the number of killer players vs. survivor players in queues is a ~60% kill rate. If you don't like it, then I don't know what else to tell you other than 1) play a different game; 2) play in a SWF team where you get an unfair advantage from comms and your escape rate will increase; or 3) play a customer match against bot killers if you want to escape more frequently.

    Unlike many who are complaining about the survivor experience, I actually play killer a good % of the time so I know what happens to the killer experience when the survivor side gets overly buffed. You get exactly what has actually happened at certain points in the game's history when nobody wanted to play killer. Survivor-only players often forget that there is a human being on the other side of the screen who also wants to have an enjoyable experience on a level playing field.

    I know that survivor, especially solo queue, can be a miserable experience but it's not because killers are OP. It's because matchmaking is non-existent and unless you're playing in a full 4-man SWF, you're getting matched with other people on a completely random basis with no regard whatsoever for skill level. I have well over 2,000 hours in the game and literally every day I play, I will get thrown into lobbies with brand new players and it's not because of a lobby backfill. This is the real issue that needs to be dealt with, not survivor vs. killer balance. My solo queue matches with teammates who know what they are doing are usually pretty competitive and enjoyable.

  • bjorksnas
    bjorksnas Member Posts: 5,700

    Thats just how games are now adays

    People will optimize the fun out of the game just so they can secure wins or complete them faster

    Its not just a killer or survivor problem or even a dbd problem its an industry wide problem

    Now in terms of dbd, Optimizing loops, optimizing check spots, abusing linked tiles, powerful items, powerful addons, powerful perks, stronger vs weaker killers, map offerings with catered builds and killers, the weaker something you use is the stronger you have to play to make up for it if you still want to win, it just happens to be that the best strategies are usually boring to the people who spent all that time to learn because its usually all dependent on the weakest link on the team not the strongest and unless you have a team of 4 of yourself killers of the same skill level as the strongest player in the lobby will almost always have a buffet starting from the bottom of a lobby.

    Frankly some killers on the tier list just can't keep up under conventual "fun" strategy not every killer wants to lose so they could say they had a fun chase especially when they know if that chase ends at the exit gate its going to come with a heaping helping of tbags for their fun. Most dbd players don't appreciate if you go out of your way to do that stuff so there's almost no point in doing so unless you do it for yourself, and even then its only so fun to lose on purpose.

    And as survivor yes pretty much unless the killer does one of the "forbidden sins" its usually easy matches against all but the highest tier killers or extremely stacked slowdown even in solo queue where you have teammates who are allergic to generators sometimes killer time efficiency is just rough.

    Its not really about the strength of things anymore its about the mentality of the players, how they treat each other and "reward" each other for trying to be fun or skilled 90% of the time.

  • justadreampallet
    justadreampallet Member Posts: 175

    this is something that had bothered me for a while too. Killer games range from “this was the easiest match ever” to “I want to quit this game” with some in between.

    When you go against a few people who started and get 3-4k each game instead of getting people who are around your skill level you get the ttv’s who use “making the killer quit with my insane blinding build” or the swf’s who don’t know the meaning of having fun.

    I want to have fun as killer, and by that I mean having the game be hard yet fair enough where I can recognize my mistakes and improve. I want the same feeling as a Souls game where I can look back and say “oh, I should’ve moonwalked to hide my stain.” Or “if I used flight of the damned then I would’ve gotten a down.”

    This should be the case for both sides, where you can learn from your mistakes and get better because of them. When your getting people too strong or to weak, people who use tactics where you can’t improve (slugging, blinding parties etc.) you can’t improve your play style so you have fun.

  • doobiedo
    doobiedo Member Posts: 365

    Wow you started what seemed like an interesting thread but then totally lost the plot. The problem in the game on a fundamental.level is that killer players demand and unbalanced playing field and to win the majority of the time or they won't play at all. Many people always say it in threads like these "when kill levels were more fair killers stopped playing." I will always turn every argument about this game into an "us vs. them" that I can because that is the fundamental problem, that one particular side demands an unbalanced game. Saying "no, you're us vs. theming" again is just gaslighting.

  • I_Cant_Loop
    I_Cant_Loop Member Posts: 701

    If you believe that a 60% kill rate is the game being "rigged" in favor of killer players, then it's clear that you're never going to be happy with this game. What is an acceptable and fun escape rate for you? 50%? More than that? Should survivors escape a majority of the time? What do you think killer players are going to do when the game becomes much more difficult for them? Oh yeah, probably the same thing they've always done in the past when escape rates were higher, which was stop playing the killer role and survivor queue times were ridiculously long. There is a custom game mode with bot killers if you want consistently EZ wins.

  • I_Cant_Loop
    I_Cant_Loop Member Posts: 701

    I'm not saying what is fair or not fair. That's an incredibly subjective judgment and everyone has a different opinion or definition of what is "fair". The devs' definition of "fair" for this game is a 60% kill rate, for what it's worth. That's what they are aiming for with the game balance. Sorry you don't like it.

    I'm telling you what happens when the average kill rate goes lower than what it's currently at (to be more "fair" in your view). The game becomes more difficult and unfun for killer players, especially against SWF teams which at higher skill levels already have a 50% or better escape rate, so killer players either switch to survivor role or they don't play at all. This isn't just my opinion - it has happened several times in the game's history.

  • Prometheus1092
    Prometheus1092 Member Posts: 581

    Ye lol a lot of killers are like me, I know, I been survivor main and still play survivor time to time. Hence why I play survivor in the way I do. I make my own fun, I don't rely on killers to play the way I want them to because I know that won't happen. They play their way I play my way, all have fun. I find going into survivor mode with the same head as I do killer mode is very stressful and not fun at all. So I change my mindset to make it fun.

  • alpha5
    alpha5 Member Posts: 400

    So how would this mindset help when you're being wiggled off/carried around just before you bleed out?

  • smurf
    smurf Member Posts: 497

    I think I remember seeing an analysis of how this often plays out. Iirc, it's like 50% wins, 20% ties, and 30% losses. That's only 30% losses.

    Obviously this is going to depend on the distribution of those 60% killed survivors in individual games, so for specific killers that distribution of wins/ties/losses can vary. Not saying it's good or bad, but that's what I remember.

  • smurf
    smurf Member Posts: 497
    edited December 19

    Posted without quote for post below this one. Couldn't add quote for some reason, so deleted :)

  • jajay119
    jajay119 Member Posts: 1,094
    edited December 19

    ”you already lost the game, there’s only two of you left”


    This attitude in an of itself is a massive issue and contributing factor as to why the game has gone down the pan. There are still half of the team in play. There should be no way shape or form this should be considered a lost game.

  • buggybug
    buggybug Member Posts: 485

    Swf is no different from solo q too, swf scan have frustrating experiences just like solo q, people need to understand that solo q and swf is playing the same role and that is survivor. Survivor as we agree is just hell to play.

  • smurf
    smurf Member Posts: 497

    I think that would lead to a scenario where most matches are ties (2k) in order to preserve the 60% kill ratio. That would translate into a nearly 0% loss rate.

    I guess you could also have 20% of matches leading to 4k, very few 3ks, and then more ties and losses than wins. Does the math work on that (I don't feel like working it out at the moment)?

    Anyway, I think you're right that it complicates the discussion. Still, I think the number of matches that end in a 'win', 'loss' for each side is typically relevant to these player experience conversations.

  • Prometheus1092
    Prometheus1092 Member Posts: 581

    Depends on the situation. If I'm the 3rd survivor being slugged to find the 4th for example then I would wiggle free and run to the other survivor so killer can wrap up if they keep me alive and I can try another match. If I'm left to bleed then I crawl to the survivor and wiggle by the locker they are hiding in (they usually hide in a locker somewhere).

  • MaTtRoSiTy
    MaTtRoSiTy Member Posts: 2,110

    I just think the game is suck a cluster ######### of perks and addons, it has created a whole bunch of really unpleasant metas and killers have a lot of means to turn matches into miserable events you endure rather then enjoy.

    Honestly some days are not bad, today has been a good day in the fog for me, all the sadistic weirdos seem to come out on the same days with what seems to be a primary goal of creating the most miserable matches possible.

    I do feel very nostalgic for pre-2020 DBD, where it was still broken in some ways (and very janky) but it was also quite simple and less sweaty unless you were red ranks.

  • Brimp
    Brimp Member Posts: 3,053

    Its hard to make the game fun most of the time for both sides in an A-symm. It's the very nature of A-symms to where either side trying to win is gonna be boring for the other at least in most cases.

    Also is unsafe really that bad? Doesn't it imply you need to make more correct reads to be able to play the tile. Also before anyone says anything I am not including the death pallet that is the midwich hallway pallet. Basically every pallet can be played to some effectiveness when ran right.

  • Chiky
    Chiky Member Posts: 810

    it has never been fun. Too easy and boring (tasks related), and usually faced against absokute tryhard sweatlords who make the gameplay miserable

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 9,699

    I hate to be this guy, but it's not how little you lose that counts. It's the way in which you lose. You did just as fast chases, used just as much strategy, and made as few mistakes as when you won, but because the survivors were fast on gens, they just get 3 out by default. It's got nothing to do with skill.

  • danielmaster87
    danielmaster87 Member Posts: 9,699

    Yeah, because we want to win against good survivors, not just rely on them playing bad. That shows the game isn't balanced. We'll take super tough killer matches, which is what a fixed MMR system would give us, in exchange for the data from those matches being used to balance properly. That's what the devs did at one time. But for some reason it's fashionable these days to hide MMR to confuse people and inflate egos, so that everyone thinks they're top level as they're complaining about Wraith and Chucky, and BBQ, being OP and stuff like that. You can't even begin to have discussions on the game with most of these people, just because of that level of orchestrated confusion and forced benefit of the doubt.

  • warp1die
    warp1die Member Posts: 502
    edited December 19

    My experience 10/05/2021 time from 22-00 to 23-00.

    Survived 4 minutes.

    Killer 40 seconds survivors all ready waiting. I assume lobby trade from other killers

    Before that we had 2020 where the killer lobby turned into this

    2020

    While the old ranked system worked fine in 2018-2019.