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What can be done with Invocations?
This whole perk class is laughably bad.
To have any effect, you have to:
- Find basement (takes time, could bring offering, but still).
- Start doing invocation (takes whole 60 seconds on top of time above needed to find basement - this time could be spent on unhooking, doing gens, healing, cleansing totems).
- While doing invocation you emit so much noise that you are easily heard from above the basement.
- After invocation you are permanently broken for the whole trial.
And what you got in return?
- 10% on each gen? (if they aren't blocked, which is just silly)
- You could've spent time wasted in the basement on just doing gens
- Killer reveal they location to all survivors after they scare a crow
- Laughably bad effect that requires bringing yet another perk that have disadvantage on its own. I don't get why "killer aura is revealed to everyone" could be worth doing this whole mess, when I can just equip Object or Alert and tell my teammates that "killer is next to main" or sth.
Maybe some drawbacks could be removed or Invocation effects could be buffed?
Comments
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I don't think the perks are in as dire a state as you're laying out here, but I do think some work could be done.
For starters, I think the actual effects of each perk are worth some kind of investment/downside balancing. A BNP on every generator is very good, and team-wide aura reading is hardly a joke of an effect either. Not everyone's on comms, this is one of the few tools solo queue players have to share that kind of info.
That being said, both perks have drawbacks that I think don't need to be there. There's no reason, in my opinion, that Weaving Spiders shouldn't activate on blocked generators, and I think something could be done with Treacherous Crows to make it a touch more consistent too.
For the overall framework of the Invocation perks, mostly all I'd change is making the Broken temporary and I think it'd be in a much healthier spot. I've always been fond of the idea that it only lasts until the next time you're hooked, that seems like a noticeable downside without being entirely permanent.
Edit: Completely forgot about this, but if you run both Invocations you should be able to activate them with the same channelling action, it's genuinely wild it doesn't already work that way.
Post edited by jesterkind on11 -
Agreed. They would either need insane buffs to compensate the heavy downsides of the perks or the downsides would need to be a lot less punishing. As of right now, using an invocation is basically throwing the game.
6 -
I think there are a few things which can be done, but I dont think they will make the Perks good. Because even if Weaving Spiders in theory is a good effect, I dont think that the time investment is worth it. But on the other hand, I think that the time investment is the part that balances the Perk and making it less of a time investment might make it too good.
I think things that should change 100% are:
- Broken status temporary or becoming injured instead of broken. I think being permanently broken kills Invocation-Perks immediatly, you can rather run No Mither and at least have some benefit from the broken status effect. And running Invocation AND No Mither probably gets you killed immediatly, since the Killer will probably know what you are up to.
- Seeing the Basement at the start of the Trial without an Offering. I think a Basement-Offering brought by the Survivor would lead the Killer directly to it (since there is not really a reason to bring such an Offering as Survivor), so having the Information as baseline when equipping an Invocation-Perk would be alright.
- When doing multiple Invocations, each Invocation after the first one can be done quicker. Could be a reduction of 15 seconds per Invocation done (so the first is 60 seconds, followed by 45 and if they release more 30 and 15…). Or just cutting the time in half for each Invocation. The time investment is still there AND the Killer basically gets a Notification that there was an Invocation done, so making multiple Invocations in a row would be more risky, even if it would be shorter.
And obviously Weaving Spiders should also work on blocked Gens, there is no reason why it should not work on blocked Gens. That you can get 0 value out of it if the Killer has Grim Embrace active for a few seconds is a Joke.
But I think overall, it will be hard to justify Invocations, solely because of the time investment. But as I said, with Weaving Spiders it is probably impossible to change it, because the Perk is either too bad or too good, I dont think there is a solid middle ground.6 -
I'd do the following:
Weaving Spiders now ignores gen blocking and just works regardless. Considering you're broken the rest of the game and have to spend a minute in basement it's not really fair for gen blocking to nullify it. The effect is decently strong if it actually works, but it needs to work 100% of the time.
Treacherous Crows' aura reading should last a little bit longer and not have the terror radius requirement (ie. it should just work any time the killer disturbs a crow regardless of if a survivor is nearby or not). In theory, revealing the killer to everyone is a strong effect, but the perk is just far too limited and inconsistent right now. If it's going to be worth the time investment and being injured all game then it needs to be a lot more powerful than it is right now.
3 -
Permanent broken will never be worth it, especially if each invocation takes its own 60 seconds with an audio/visual cue that it was completed. Start there.
6 -
Good answers already.
Minimum changes to my mind: -
- Allow both Invocations to be done at the same time. The reason I assume this was done was to not have to handle 2 separate players equipping 2 different Invocations at the same, but if every Invocation has a penalty associated with it anyway, that is still probably fine... Have a minimum participation requirement if you must.
- Make the Broken effect not the standard penalty. It stifles the ability to balance each perk. Broken is a fair enough penalty for Weaving Spiders, but Treacherous Crows does not need broken.
With those 2 changes the core design of Invocations is now workable, and each perk can be balanced to warrant their usage.
6 -
It’s Showtime! :)
I am very interested in the topic of Invocations, since I just love the concept and wish they were usable. And as such, I have already made a list of changes I’d do.
My changes would be:
- Remove the excessive drawbacks from both Invocations (terror radius from Treacherous Crows, Weaving Spiders postponing it’s effect for blocked gens)
- Replace the Broken with more fitting drawbacks (Exposed for WS, Oblivious for TC)
- Remove the option to speed the ritual up by joining it and replace it with an additional reward gained when participating, making the final effect stronger.
Thoughts?
7 -
- remove being able to be interrupted.
- lower time from 60 seconds or make the effects significantly stronger to warrant the time investment
- make them all complete-able at the same time
- Perma broken is way too much of a downside (your down a teammate who can never make altruistic plays)
- the way treacherous crows works is already flawed on a fundamental level which people pointed out on the ptb (survivors are disturbing crows 4x as much as killer and if killers are always following survivors they can never disturb crows)
- weaving spiders can straight up not work if gens are blocked ?! fix that
- stop releasing chapters with 4 killer perks (invocations being so mathematically bad they help the killer)
4 -
Edit: Completely forgot about this, but if you run both Invocations you should be able to activate them with the same channelling action, it's genuinely wild it doesn't already work that way.
This was my biggest feedback on Invocations. I’m glad you edited it in 😄
I agree with the temporary Broken as well. I’m more lenient in that I would have the broken only last like 45-60 sec or something. But until they are hooked is good too, I would be okay with that.
5 -
Nothing will fix this type perks if they keep broken effect. I liked @jesterkind 's idea. Broken effect should stay on you until killer hook you. This will be fair trade. And perk is not coming for free, survivor still need to use good time to activate it.
Treacherous Crows is however, it's really bad perk. I tried to get value from it multiple times but it's just not working at all. Most crows disturbed by survivors which means killer is not disturbing them good enough. I'd rework this perk. Killer's aura revealed for 3 seconds every 15 seconds while they are in chase. Something like that.
6 -
Me when I see teamates with these perks and am running the killer for about to 2 3 gens worth of time
4 -
I just go ahead and stop running. Like right in mid chase I just stop. Just hook me so I can die.
4 -
I do not blame you friend its just like seriously.
1 -
I've always been fond of the idea that it only lasts until the next time you're hooked
This is a very bad idea, all that will happen is that the killer will slug you and refuse to hook you.
I mean it's in the killer's best interest that to stay you're injured for the rest of the match ,so why would the killer want to take it away from you? Literally the killer chasing you just got easier.
2 -
Can be broken until downed then 🤷♂️
2 -
The main problem is the downside of broken and that you can’t do them together. I’m fine with all the other things.
What I would do:
- Invocations can be done all at once, but each one increases the required time to complete them by 20 seconds.
- Each new invocation should have a downside fitting to their effect and strength (not broken or exposed).
- Weaving spider trades one of your hook stages like with shoulder the burden and treacherous crows makes you oblivious.
2 -
Useless perks, survivor can't have a good perks because killers will start whine about it, because if they can't 4k each match they are very upset…
I personally want from devs to release 1 good/balanced perk each chapter for killer and survivor, 3 for survivor/killer is a lil too much since there is a lot of perks
Post edited by Oputeeva on0 -
The issue is they've decided Broken is the catchall downside for every Invocation, but that's not appropriate for every Invocation. Weaving Spiders, sure, but Treacherous Crows? No, I don't think so.
The issue with Invocations is you cannot make them too strong or they become overwhelming for most Killers, and you cannot weaken them because they already have too many drawbacks. I don't think much CAN be done except to go back to the drawing board on what Invocations do.
2 -
- Basement is in one of two locations on outdoor maps and a fixed location on indoor maps. That's hardly a problem.
- The 60s timer is better than it used to be; comrades supercharge the time it takes. No instant gratification for a benefit.
- Emitting noise is hardly an issue in many maps, e.g. the Game and Midwich where basements are guaranteed to be out of the way of normal trekking (as mentioned in point #1). Comrades know you're invocating, so they know not to lure killer your way.
- Perfect opportunity to try something new instead of the same-old-same-old meta stuff. Resilience, Soul Guard, This is Not Happening, heck even Deadline. Don't worry, you'll still be able to use your precious Windows of Opportunity.
- A Brand New Part installed on every generator in the game. If you bring those in toolboxes, why complain about this perk?
- People's unhealthy obsession with the "just do gens" schtick is not a good thing. Certain popular streamers contributed to that fallacy, unfortunately.
- Everyone being similarly obsessed with aura-reading perks surprises me that this is viewed as a lackluster effect here. If it's auras you want, this is the way to get it triggered all the time. Even philosophically, it makes sense. How is this catching flak?
1 -
The reason these perks are frowned upon, is the magnitude of drawbacks, conditions, and things it can go wrong.
Weaving Spiders can be completely useless if someone happens to use Grim Embrace. But it still breaks you. The permanent Broken is not only a 50% chase reduction, but also an extra free tracking for killer and an easier tunnel target. And did I mention that Treacherous Crows can be denied by 3 different status effects, as well as bad RNG?
Also, let's not pretend that teammates will help you with it. I personally saw few posts where people were griefed and sold out to the killer just for running the perk.
3 -
Grim Embrace does not negate Weaving Spiders. In fact, Weaving Spiders helps bounce back faster than otherwise possible once Grim Embrace's effects end.
No killer bases their gameplay around crows. Even if they use Spies from the Shadows or Languid Touch, it's not the focus of any build or power-synergy. Nobody uses the Blindness mechanic (even though they should), and Oblivious/Undetectable perks always have an easy counterplay.
Just because a perk doesn't launch you towards the finish line and hands you the escape on a silver platter doesn't mean it's bad. It's not wrong for there to be even a slight inconvenience and/or counterplay to any given perk. That's called balance. With everyone crying like babies over "erm, um, this game is so killer/survivor -sided, hurr durr" things like this land safely in the middle.
If people grief/sellout Invocaters, it's probably because they've been warped into believing that this perk line is so bad that no one should ever dare run it, which is sort of the impression that people like you are encouraging.
0 -
Grim Embrace DOES in fact negate the effect of Weaving Spiders entirely, if the ritual finishes while the gens are blocked. Also, Weaving Spiders’s effect can sometimes be less efficient just doing gens normally.
The effects of both Invocations could be strong. But with all the conditions, drawbacks and RNG elements, you are better off running anything else. Hell, No Mither can give you more value in some cases. The Broken downside basically requires you to run other perks that make it less of a burden.
But I’m not stopping you. Run the perks. Go ahead. I’m sure your teammates and the killer will all enjoy it. :)
3 -
"…if the ritual finishes while gens are blocked." 🤦♂️ That's such a tiny, minute, niche, specific, unlikely occurrence that it can't seriously be a legitimate argument. That's like saying, don't bring items into games just in case the killer is running Overwhelming Presence. Don't use Boons just in case you'd lose them to Shattered Hope anyways. Don't bother with Any Means Necessary if a killer might bring Spirit Fury.
You're basing your entire evaluation off something that you've probably never seen happen, nor likely ever will.
And again, as far as Broken goes, it mandates creativity for your builds instead of the same old stupid stuff. It offers change and uniqueness. 'Embrace' it, don't fight it.
By the way, I never see killers run Grim Embrace. There's 127 killer perks in the game and you're basing your argument on 1 of them. If only a 0.8% portion of the killer's repertoire causes concern, we can take our chances.
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As I said, run them if you want, I'm not stopping you.
I'm just laying out the fact that any other perk is more benefitial than the Invocations.
2 -
To be absolutely fair, why shouldn't a perk that permanently makes every gen have 80 charges have any drawbacks? And why shouldn't perks on one side be able to counter perks on the other? Is there anything inherently or tactically wrong with that?
My issue is mostly with Treacherous, it probably should have a different drawback for what it does.
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Now, I don't think these peks should be free value at all. A permanent drawback for a strong effect is a good trade off, but I think that it would be better if it was Exposed instead of Broken, or alternatively, a third, special state in-between, that makes you instadownable even by special attacks, but doesn't make you perma-injured (in short, I don't like the fact it double hinders you in chase AND makes you a tunnel target).
Also, the whole gen blocking thing just seems like an oversight to me. The PTB version (which only added charges and didn't lock them in) simply ignored gen-blocks, and this one should too. The scenario where this happens is rare, but imagine giving the opponent a huge advantage, while you get nothing because of unlucky timing.
I'm glad we can agree on Treacherous tho.
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