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Why people are acting like this game survivor-sided while killers wins majority of games?
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The short answer is "the average player is not that good at the game". Matchmaking is very loose, so what happens is that the top 1% of players (who have played a lot and/or are very good) commonly get matched against players who are not of the same caliber. If you look at any killer winstreak, you will commonly see games where the player doesn't even have to try, because the survivors make so many mistakes that the game is easy. For example, Tofu's recent Freddy 50 wins, etc. And on the other side, average killers get paired against good solos or good SWFs and get destroyed. Back in the day Marth's SWF did a no perk escape streak, and Hens and Knightlight have done high 3out escape streaks, iirc up to 200+.
Most winstreaks that end will end from a snipe, because realistically good players will only lose versus other good players. Especially if the winstreak is using the strongest stuff available, 4 average players in a SWF on Eyrie with BNPs is not enough. If there was a "winstreak" done where the person/people was only matched against comp players trying their hardest, I would be surprised to see more than 20 wins.
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Pings would actually be awesome. I play a lot of Marvel Rivals at present and the tools solo queue has to communicate are absolutely incredible.
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To more concisely make my point, I'd argue the people you're hearing say "current DBD is survivor sided" are either average/below average players or are playing in scenarios where they aren't playing their hardest to win. People who like to play lower tiers with chill builds and 12 hook are correct that in that scenario survivors have a LOT of second chances and opportunities to win, but that's unfortunately not the way the game is primarily played or balanced around.
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I also play a fair bit of solo queue where my escape rate is probably closer to 40% (so, so many quitters) which almost certainly keeps it lower. If I were to play exclusively with my mates, chances are we'd eventually hit the softcap.
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Gross generalization is your opinion, which you are entitled to.
It's not tu quoque. Go through your debate 101 flashcards again.
If it's easy to demonstrate how often survivors DC'd prior to patch 6.1.0, why not post some data yourself instead of asking everyone to google search it themselves?
I don't see your point because you aren't trying to make one. You're just saying the same thing over and over and hoping people will eventually fold to your ad nauseam. I'm sorry but people don't DC or give up just because they can, they do it for a reason and that reason is the game is not fun for survivors because killer is too strong.
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That's a fair stance. I would still like to see pings to help even out soloq vs swf myself, but I understand where you're coming from with your position.
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Pretty sure Clown has a higher winstreak than that Survivor streak.
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Saying the game is X-sided is usually easier than admitting you aren't as good as you think.
Sometimes, there's grains of truth. If someone who plays only in Solos or Duos says that, then yeah, the game is pretty Killer-sided I'm sure.
If someone playing Blight or Nurse says that, I'm less inclined to believe them.
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You are stereotyping tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of players as whiny and entitled because of some nonspecific 'a lot of' big bad killer mains.
In regards to 'survivors only quit because the game is imbalanced' I put up my own experiences combined with an easily confirmable and common sense observation that any longtime DbD player would be able to confirm. You responded by going 'well if you don't have to give a source for that I don't have to give a source either'.
Nobody asked for data here, just specificity. In a rhetorical way. Because I'm pointing out that you're setting up an Emmanuel Goldstein rather than actually refuting any actual argument.
But yeah. We now have a strawman inside an adhom inside a tu quoque inside a bit of sealioning.
It's the bad argument equivalent of a turducken.
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This.
There are things that are a bit busted in this game. Nurse is an easy example. Her kit just breaks the game. She needs a rework.
Blight is…almost there. He's too strong but a lot of that comes from how forgiving his power is and how good he is at tunneling someone out in a way where teammates can't do much to stop.
Trim off those outliers and the SWF/killer matchup is actually in okay shape - probably the most balanced it's ever been.
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I'm not a fan of using killer winstreaks as a metric for…anything, because unless it's someone like Otz who has built up a LOT of community trust, I'll always remember that insane Demogorgon winstreak that turned out to be caused by deliberately losing dozens of games between streams.
That said, the longest Clown streak I can find with a quick Google is Otz's 50.
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Because at a certain level it is survivor sided. Im not talking comp level you can still win by just being good at the game and people holding M1 on gens when someones being chased.
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We basically need to convince the project managers of DBD that the game is currently in a very killer sided state and not enjoyable as surv at all. But how to do that?
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Because online rage baiters and trolls have decided this games direction awhile ago with all of these "killer updates" that never needed to happen, rather than any security or sensibility on the dev team in charge.
20 second cd, thats how long legions 1 power, is on cooldown for. And hes a balanced killer.
This should be the standard when making and balancing killersInstead we get unbalanced and crap heap with multiple unnecessary powers and things like overdrive on billy.
And then on top of that slugging still being a thing, as well as camping and tunneling.
Only complete cope children think this game is survivor sided.8 -
I'm going to try to be as fair as possible (4khr blight/jeff main)
Historically speaking, survivors have absolutely held the power role in DBD. DBD's early history is full of nerfs targeting survivors because, frankly, their toolkit was absurd. Self-Care mid-chase, sprint burst mid-chase, BNP instantly completing gens, pallet vacuum etc. It took BHVR a very long time to even admit these things were a problem, much less fix them.
This isn't to say that killers haven't had their fair share of OP nonsense. Old Mori's were incredibly broken, Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer wasn't necessarily game breaking, but it was obnoxious to play against(hence the reason why I never used it myself), and Gen-kick meta nearly broke the keyboards of survivors all over.
The reason why I bring these up is because the killer issues (Moris etc) were seemingly addressed much faster than survivor ones. How long did the gen kick meta last compared to the reign of old DH for example? The notion that dev's are making the game "killer-sided" is the result of them kicking the can regarding unbalanced survivor perks/interactions (see old DH, gen speed, unfair maps i.e. Haddonfield). They aren't trying to make survivors miserable, they are fixing mistakes that should have been corrected long ago.
As far as "killers win the majority of games", that boils down to two things. First the amount of skill it takes to play top-tier killers consistently well (nurse, blight, spirit, billy etc) is not to be ignored. It takes not just mechanical skill, but things like map knowledge, perk knowledge, and game sense. It also doesn't help that streamers make said killers look easy to play, when in truth they had to spend hundreds of hours to get there in the first place. Second, is that during a game, it isn't the killer that is your worst enemy, its your own teammates. How many times have we seen survivors hide in basement instead of unhooking, healing under hook against someone who comes back to hook each time or any number of stupid decisions?
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- no one cares about comp.
- if you think nurse is the only viable killer that’s purely a skill issue on your part. There are a ton of good killers in this game and more than half the roster is viable.
- The devs said that the rate people were only going next vs skull merchant was 3% out of her 70%. And that was for the most hated killer. The only reason you say that you think the killer rate is actually at 40% is because you want to believe your “survivor op and killers are helpless” narrative.
7 - no one cares about comp.
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And this is even more pure cope there was like 2 times where survivors actually had a power role and it was due to broken interactions that were fixed within months.
Once when BNPS were insta 5 full gen back in 2016. Fixed in a few months
And then again with MFT. Fixed in a few monthsYou had to bring BT to stop kills at the hook. We didnt have basekit BT until 2022, thats 6 years of able to kill from a hook save.
2023, you finally couldnt get grabbed trying to save somone from a hook. Thats 7 years of able to grab someone hook saving
Old moris? A full year, you could down and kill anyone with original ebony memento. And then until 2020 you only needed a single hookstage to mori.
Nurse was literally released the same year as launch, only a few months after. She had no charge cooldown or recovery, only fatigue. Meaning she could 7 blink after cooldown was done. She had the ability to get 5 blinks for 3 years (2019) before we got the blinks down to what we have now.
Same with the Hag when she was released with old ruin. The version where you had to get great skill checks to even progress generators. This lasted until 2020.
We had the gen kick meta with COB. We had the Eruption stall the game meta. We had infinite pain res. We had Sadabroken 2.0.
And now we have what we have today. Maps that are dead zone filled, killer updates that didnt need to happen, and released killers with multiple powers on way too short of CD.
So no historically. You had to have been a complete ape to believe the game was "historically" survivor sided in any capacity.9 -
- Except for people who watch comp. Or play comp. Or the developers who not only organize comp events, but have gone on record saying they want to do more for comp players.
- Define 'viable'. I'd say that there are maybe 3 or 4 killers at this point in time that can contest a good SWF on a difficult map like GoJ. On a more balanced map…maybe 5 or 6.
- Where? I cannot seem to find this quote. I can tell you that, anecdotally, I see quitting in at least a quarter of my matches no matter who I'm playing.
The game is fairly balanced if it's a high tier killer against an SWF.
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Seeing as you have no idea what any of the terms you're throwing around actually mean, I'm just going to settle in agreeing to disagree with you as to not waste any more of my time lol.
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We don't need to speculate on what's theoretically possible. The devs shared stats that show what happens.
The stats showed, that even at top 5% MMR, survivors don't win 50% of their game.
So if you win 55% consistently as survivor, you are top MMR.
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The game is supposed to be killer-sided. The devs have very clearly stated that the target kill rate is 60%. Fewer people played killer back when kill rates were lower. Back then, my survivor queue times during peak evening hours would sometimes be 15 minutes or longer. Killer players were extremely rare. Now my survivor queue times are 5 minutes tops, indicating a healthier killer:survivor ratio.
A lot of people seem to be conflating "the game is killer-sided" and "playing killer is easy". I play about 50/50 survivor/killer, and I can tell you that in a majority of my matches I go up against survivors who know what they are doing and it is not easy. The only thing that needs a balance adjustment is the unfair advantage that SWF teams get from using comms.
To those in this thread claiming that the killer role is too easy or that kill rates need to be reduced, please post some of your gameplay so I can learn what I'm doing wrong. I have a feeling that none of you will take me up on that.
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Pretty sure it's held by that one dude who wrote the 400 page Clown guide
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You always complain about killers being too powerful, so I guess by your logic that makes you a bad survivor player
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Yup. I'm the one who…you know what, never mind. You go do you I guess.
One does not mean the other.
A 60% kill rate doesn't really mean killers 'win' 60% of the time. Honestly, 'win' is not a term that's ever really been defined by the developers as so far as it pertains to killers. But going off the community definition of 3k or more, with 2k being a draw and 1k being a loss and how insanely easy it is to get at least 1k, yeah. Kill rate will be inflated, even if we exclude games with a quitter.
Wouldn't surprise me. I'm just not finding any information on a long Clown streak, at least at a cursory glance.
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It's just a mish mash of everything now. So many perks, so many killers, so many maps. It's at the point where you can't balance everything. Something changed will do nothing on one map or killer, but on another killer or with a certain perk it's completely gamechanging.
Just one little change, however small can do so much. Just look at Thrill recently where on certain killers with certain add ons and perks totems were unclensable.
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- Again no one cares about comp
2. “Viable” means you can win most of your games. More than half the roster can do that. You’re not gonna win every game but your gonna win most.
3.
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“The only thing that needs a balance adjustment is the unfair advantage that SWF teams get from using comms.”
Ok and how do you do that?
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To those in this thread claiming that the killer role is too easy or that kill rates need to be reduced, please post some of your gameplay
I mean, yes I can? I'm OK to record my killer gameplay if that can genuinely convince you.
I have already done that on this forum. Following an argument about soloQ and facecamping, I even recorded my first killer games. Result? I achieved 36 wins in a row.
Guess what? The people I was arguing with still came up with excuses, that my survivors were babies (which is true, my survivors are somewhat bad - but the part I suspect most killers are missing, is that their survivors are babies as well).
Do I just need to record my games for an afternoon then you can see that I achieve a consistent ~75% winrate? Easy peasy. But this is some work for me to setup so be a bit more specific about what "evidence" I need to bring. What killer/perks am I allowed to play? Tunneling ok or not? etc.
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I'll throw my hat in the ring.
I will unretire out of spite if they ask me to. You can have someone who was at high MMR who hasn't played in six months going against, presumably, good players.
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Thank you for admitting it. Also check out @iloveandhatethisgame 's post with the data from the devs regarding kill rates. Further data that shows killers are outperforming the target 60% arbitrary balance number, while also showing that go-nexts are not as big of a problem as you are making it out to be. Looks like just because people CAN do something, doesn't mean they actually do it…
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A few minor things to correct: this is a 1v1v1v1 v 1 game, survivors are not obligated to ‘play as a team’ and BHVR tries to balance them as individual players and players who can perform cooperatively, comp survivors are not stomping comp killers (in fact the win/loss in comp is about even with killers having a slight edge and mind you most of the comp killer players actually also play survivor), and BHVR has themself called the game killer sided.
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don't think game is survivor sided or killer sided. i would say survivor is a bit uncomfortable to play. killers range from being fun to to less fun to play as many kits have limited tools alongside poor numerical balance in some cases. so some killer are good and other killers are less good.
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I don't want to name the player, but a Clown player got to 400ish within the last year or so. Don't remember the exact number off the top of my head.
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That essentially answers the question posed by the thread. Hidden MMR goes a long way towards confirming whatever narrative people want to create. After all, nobody faces the caliber of survivors xKillerGodx faces on their server at their time of day at their MMR.
Never do they question why survivors look like relative babies against one player but perform like gods against them. You could show them videos of an average D1 basketball player cooking an average joe but not scoring a point against an NBA player. They would tell you it makes sense, because there are levels to things. They will never, ever apply that logic to DbD. Their MMR is hidden, therefore they must be at the top of MMR mountain, and their losses don't boil down to the simple fact that they aren't as good as they think they are.
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"On top of that slugging is still being a thing, as well as camping and tunneling"
So whats so wrong with these? Cause these are far from problematic and if anything they would cause even more problems if "fixed" as in completely impossible to do as per a lot of community ideas I have seen.2 -
The problem with this debate is that there are so many variables and inconsistencies when it comes to the role. You can't just say "killer is EZ mode" as a blanket statement.
Yes, killer is easy, IF:
- You play (and have experience) as and S or A tier killer
- Use the strongest perks/add-ons
- You play in the most coldly efficient way possible (tunneling)
So yeah, if you're a highly experienced Blight/Nurse/Spirit who plays with robotic indifference, then yeah, there isn't going to be much in the way of challenge for you (I'll never understand the appeal of that, but alas).
Beyond that, killer difficulty gets complicated. If your killer(s) of choice are weaker, or if you prefer to play in a fairer way, it can vary from decently challenging to infuriatingly difficult. To the point where with some killers, getting the wrong map is pretty much a guaranteed loss, even against survivors that are less than great.
Kill rates aren't the best way to assess relative strength as some of the weaker killers do well at lower MMR, and some of the strongest killers have a skill floor that leads to non-experienced players to struggle. It's just a messy endeavor to draw conclusions from those numbers alone.
Like if you're a new Nurse/Blight/etc., you're going to lose. A lot. But If you've mastered them? You're essentially a killing machine who can 3/4K in your sleep against all but the best teams.
Conversely, you can get about as good as you can be with C/D tier killer and be absolutely fighting for your life most of the time.
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Why is it when comes to balancing, we always have to consider killers in the hands of the very top players who have tens of thousands of hours and win streaks hundreds of games long, but for survivors it’s “no one cares about comp” and “most SWFs aren’t that good” and so on?
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It's just delusional and being bitter over losses.
Doesn't help that this forum is very killer-sided so it's flooded with useless feedback.
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If you think tunneling and slugging. 2 things that nullify any single player from having any semblance of control over their own gameplay. Then idk.
They are massive problems and have not been addressed or fixed. And its more of a compounding problem that you have to deal with ON TOP OF everything else.
Load up a killer, pick a survivor and say you're it shouldn't be a thing.
Keeping people on the ground, shouldnt be a thing.2 -
Play however you want. Any perks, camping, tunneling, whatever you want to do. I would honestly like to see some your matches if you're willing to post. You're the only one who will actually put their money where their mouth is. Most others just throw stuff out there with zero experience playing killer against non-noob survivors.
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There have been lots of solutions proposed to handicap SWF teams. Limiting multiple uses of the same perk/items/add-ons, certain perk combos, adjusting gen speeds, etc. But whenever those are proposed, people cry that you're "punishing them for playing with friends", so they'll get to keep their unfair advantage forever.
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Five reasons mainly in my opinion.
- Denial. Some players don't want to admit they're not as good as they think they are and put the blame on something else. While this is, of course, true of both some Killer players and some Survivor players the question asked in this thread is about why players say the game is Survivor sided when DbD is clearly and intentionally as stated by the devs as leaning Killer sided. That's one of the reasons you always see 'baby survivors!' when someone posts gameplay showing that public queues don't require tunnelling, etc to have a good win rate. As @edgarpoop stated earlier xKillerGodx essentially has a magical server where they face Team Eternal all the time. It couldn't be that xKillerGodx is at fault or anything like that or that the same survivors they're calling babies would feel like gods to xKillerGodx but not to the Killer showing their gameplay because that would imply that xKillerGodx isn't as good as they think and the Killer player showing they don't need to tunnel to win is better than xKillerGodx. That's inconceivable
- Inertia. DbD had a lot of busted stuff for survivors. That's all gone now. However, people take a long time to change a perception once it's been formed. They could be thinking it's more like 2021 for DbD instead of the reality that DbD 2024 actually is
- Gaslighting. There are a lot of posts blaming Survivors for, well, almost everything. I tunnelled? The Survivors made me do it! I slugged for the 4K? That wasn't my choice; the Survivors made me do it! Tunnelling disproportionately effective against solo queue? Skill issue! Survivors should be both clairvoyant enough to know what perks they should equip, the Killer has equipped and telepathic enough they should be able to work as a hive mind or it's all the Survivors fault!
- Selective Perception: A Killer could be stuck at the soft cap for MMR. If they are then a lot of the Survivor teams they face could be significantly better than them and that would give the selective perception the game is Survivor sided. That's not true but if you're a 1600 MMR player going against 1900 MMR players a lot of the time the 1600 player has literally a single digit chance of winning. That would give the perception it's survivor sided; it's false because it wouldn't be game mechanics overall giving the impression but the MMR algorithm specifically.
- The Delta between Killers. Some of the Killers are a lot weaker than the others. It would still be a mistaken perception as a few Killers needing a bit more help doesn't change that the majority of the Killer lineup is doing great but, to someone using a weak Killer, the game would feel different than to someone playing S tier Killers all the time
Anyway, that's my opinion. DbD is overall Killer sided but for one reason or another somebody could seriously attempt to claim it's survivor sided.
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What helps killers elevate is that they can always resort to camp-tunneling. It’s free, requires little effort, and it works. Unfortunately the counter play for survivors is inefficient, paywalled, and requires coordination.
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Give me a few days since I'm not at home, but yeah, I'll record the next time I play
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EDIT: Disregard. Let me go take a look.
EDIT 2: Okay, so. I'm not finding the stream referenced here, but this seems to be coming second hand from someone who watched a stream. I cannot find any mentions of this. It also appears to be a poster with a bit of a…let's say a chip on their shoulder and even she was a bit iffy on that number - and as this isn't referenced anywhere else from what I can find, and as, looking at the comments it seems to contradict people's own experiences tremendously on all killer (and my own, which last time I took note, in a sample size of maybe 400 games on both sides the suicide rate wasn't far off 5x that number - even being amazingly generous).
Regardless, spent like 30 minutes looking around and this appears to be the only source for this statistic. I've reached out to them personally and will see if they have a link. Because this seems fishy.
Post edited by Equinox_One on1 -
Lots of these answers have been covered by others, but here goes.
1: People confuse the question of "is" the game killer sider with the question of "should" the game be killer sided.
2: It's a defense mechanism. No one likes to win a game that they were supposed to win, and it feels awful to lose a game you were supposed to win.
-It also presumes that because the advantage was on your side, you should always win if that's true. It would be like if a certain basketball team always got to start the game with 5 points. It's definitely tilted in their favor, but they would still lose plenty of games.
3: Trying to limit the ground.
-Even when the question is about the "game" we immediately start moving it to a very small subset of the game (hypothetical elite 4 person SWF team). That's basically conceding the point.
-Talking about weaker killers as if the killer player drew their killer at random. This would be like saying 'oh, you think survivor is strong, try perkless soloq'. This is cherry picking the argument where we limit it to the strongest survivor but throw in weaker killers to balance it out instead of having an even 1 to 1 comparison.
4: Limited information and human psychology
-Unless you both record your games and have the survivor recordings, there are always lots of unknowns and judgement calls. The killer never knows what would have happened if they made a different choice. Without feedback we just think our choice was correct and its the game which is broken.
-We confuse the random elements with skill. The game is meant to have a high variance in outcomes. Human nature means when we win because of randomness we attribute it to our skill, when we lose we say its because its broken.
-Skill in DbD is a subtle thing. In a shooter a player can jump around a corner, twist, and head shot a guy across the map and the skill is obvious. A killer playing well, keeping up the pressure, and having good map sense looks like the survivors are bad.
5: Blaming survivors like they come from some totally different player base. Yeah, sometimes survivors are bad or mess up their teamwork, that's the nature of a team game. But we have to factor in that element that survivors have to deal with that the killer doesn't when discussing the game 'sideness'.
6: Shifting the goalposts. Usually when this topic comes up there will be some form of: 'oh, if its so easy win 20 games in a row do so as Trapper perkless'. Not only are we limiting the ground again, but the request proves the point. If I won 15 games as perkless Trapper and lost 5, that still sounds pretty killer sided to me. Even if I went 50/50, it sounds killer sided because I've given myself such a huge disadvantage.
-I think survivors get a little too focused on the 1000 game win streaks. I think a better indication is that the general goal for a killer is '50' wins. The fact that this seems to have been accomplished by a lot of players on a lot of killers, and we're really limited to one or two examples on the survivor side, I think shows a lot about the game sideness. If I made a post like 'hey, I just won ten games in a row as Huntress', it would be meaningless, while in most games that would be a pretty nice accomplishment.
7: Butchering math by taking BHVR's official stats and trying to twist through bad math or one sided framing.
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So you are going to tell me that when skull merchants kill rate was what it was, that you TRULY BELIEVE that she was by far the best killer in the game, and that nurse is one of the worst killers in the game?
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Many of us do care about both sides. But I think all top level things have to be counted. Many people say it is survivor sided because they play x=lowertierkiller or killer sided because they play solo survivor. They just disregard the fact that survivors still have to deal with high tier killers and killers have to deal with high tier 4-mans.
As long as high tier killers and high tier swfs can keep each other in check then the only way to see what side is actually stronger would be to constantly match them together and keep track of stats. MMR would have to be tightened, queue times made longer, and people would be seeing the same opponents a lot.
I couldn't accept comp as the balance decider as it has rules and limitations for "both" sides. They don't just create the regulations for balance but also for entertainment, I think. Otherwise people would be able to choose a killer they want in every game. Not have to switch it up or choose from a list.
Then there's one huge difference in comp in that survivors know what killers they are playing against. They can create or use builds designed around that.
On the flip side, survivors are limited with their builds. They can't just use the same characters or perks.
Factor all this in with certain perks and items not being allowed and it becomes a separate game from the main game. I'm not saying that comp players don't perform extremely well outside of this setting as they are great players. I'm sure I wouldn't stand a chance against them. But the mode itself is not the same.
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I agree with almost all of this except the winstreak potential differentiation. If there is ever a point where any killer's max winstreak is lower than a survivor one, that would be a pretty big indicator that particular killer would be massively underpowered. The 1 should always have a higher potential than any of the 4, let alone all 4. Even the best players need communication and coordination, especially when compared to a single person working independently. I like your target range of 50, but if that is the case, then survivor ones should still be lower than that just on a principle of 4 minds in tandem vs 1 in focus. If it were higher (or even,) then that would imply that the 4 are inherently stronger than the 1 due to that difference alone. This is all strictly concerning potential and not average performance, of course.
Your comments about unknowns and the things that contribute to the statistics is spot on though. Even skill expression is only a factor toward final outcomes, and can often be nullified entirely by other factors. Unfortunately there is a lot of ego in this community, so thats likely a big part of why people try to bend things to their own perspective rather than use other perspectives to learn from.
Post edited by Ryuhi on0 -
no but she was way more common, easier to play than nurse because she didn’t have to do anything skillful (just fart out a drone and zone). That killer was also a mega solo Que killer. You always asks the same questions trying to do a “gotcha moment” yet it never works out for you.
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