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When BHVR will address Knock Out
Comments
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I truly doubt people get humped for longer then 10 seconds
You underestimate how petty people can be. It only takes one person doing this to impact 4 survivors just about every match, and it's also done by content creators as well, which people love to emulate.
Killer also loses / draws if 2 or more people bleed out btw they lose mmr
This is entirely wrong. The only thing that discourages this in any way is that the killer loses blood points if a survivor bleeds out.
MMR only cares about kills, so it doesn't care if they died to Mori, hooks, or bleeding out: a kill increases MMR, escapes lower it, and hatch is a zero. That's it.
And thank the entity it works like that. People who actually want bleed outs to lower MMR is an awful idea. There should never be a way for anyone to win a game and still lower their MMR at the same time. That would be the go-to and only way many people would play if you could simultaneously win every match and also get easier games by doing so. There are a disturbing number of people in these forums who desperately want that to be the way the game, specifically killer, should work, yet that would actually kill the game.
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I'm like 95% sure killer loses because a 4 man bleed out will say "the entity hungers….." and a 1 hook 3 bleedout will say "Brutal Killer" etc etc….
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What DO you think the perk whose only function happens from a survivor on the ground could be for then? This is a very odd take to suggest it's for anything other than leaving a survivor on the floor.
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Sound pretty good and a ton better than the current version.
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bait
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Something tells me people who bleed out don't care about MMR
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That's a relic from the old pip system, I believe.
You gain MMR for Kills of any kind. You lose MMR for escapes out of the Gate. The only draw is a Hatch escape.
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You are correct about this, and the devs confirmed that this rating changes based on kills. And they said killer MMR goes up or down based on kills. Without them coming out and saying directly that bleed outs drop MMR (which they will not) it makes sense to say that it does. Sacrificing survivors is the primary killer objective, why would a player go up in MMR if they aren't completing the basic objective?
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Pretty sure bleeding out dont count as kills for tome challenges either
I'd say bleeding out doesn't actually count as a killer kill and instead it's counted as the survivor just not escaping
in any case we wont know until devs confirm it or a hacker tells us
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They just need to make it so it only blocks aura for the next 15 seconds like the rest of the effects.
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If a Mori counts as an MMR bump, which it does, a bleedout will as well.
The only way a Survivor can gain MMR is via the exit gate. Hatch is a draw. That was explicitly stated. We can infer from that, that every other method of death for a Survivor decreases their MMR, thereby increasing Killer.
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im not gonna change my mind until i get some conformation about it so agree to disagree have good day bye
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You literally just got it but sure, bye
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Making people miserable is healthy for the game.
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I said I didn't want to tackle this again, but I just can't help myself.
"Humping is fine though"
What is wrong with people playing this game?!?!
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The game is unhealthy for the game.
The Game is unhealthy for the game.
The game is unhealthy for the Game.
But the Game is not unhealthy for the Game. 😎🤣
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No i didn't
You are not a dev
Maybe a hacker though
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Now that the discussion is about MMR i got a question here.
Some suggested that hooking give mmr is that true? like lets say i hook people 9 times and 1 die and 3 escape i lose mmr?
If they all bleed out i lose or gain mmr?
I originally thought 2 Escapes = Draw
Hatch = Draw = MMR stagnant.
One of the reason i ask is because if bleeding out is not causing you to "win" and gain MMR is an incentive to continue to slug " Lesser players " As they wont climb the ladder and always face easy opponents and feel good about myself.
The reason i think this way is because when i watch Youtube videos of killers who are renown i always think to myself. Why arent my survivors this bad? The people i meed are surgical and you miss a knife you might just lose the entire game but in the videos i see of some renown people playing i see the survivors cannot even loop. Perhaps they tank their MMR to the very bottom for their content.1 -
I know you didn't say tbagging is fine but
Can you explain to me why humping for a short amount of time is wrong?
It's just a bit of BM and a mindgame
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If survivors tbagging is generally acceptable then why shouldnt humping?
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Why should we care about a slugging perk? With all this outcry for a solve to the slugging "issue" - slugging isn't even going to be viable in the next few months anyway (weeks if survivors are lucky). There is like 50 other perks I would always pick over this and most of them suck. This perk is garbage; it doesn't need a rework it needs to be replaced with something better. Sorry to solo Q survivor players who get slugged I suppose. How ever more than likely you're getting slugged longer than 15 seconds if you're getting slugged at all so the perk isn't even useful to the losers who use it. I'm actually having a hard time seeing what's so problematic about it. If you're solo queueing you're not gonna get picked up in the timeframe of the perks effect. If you get picked up immediately what's the point of the perk? Literally useless unless you're slugging and can get another down in less than 15 seconds (unlikely) and if you do manage to get that down then the survivor team DEFINITLEY has info on where the slugs are; blindness or not. Maybe I'm missing something?
I'm sad BHVR held on to the Texas chainsaw license honestly. Bubba is just Billy for blind people, a toddler could 4k with him every time.
Anyway I'm not going on strike. You all take content creators opinions wayyy too seriously.0 -
Honestly… Knock Out is one of my go-to Ghostie perks, and it's in my main build. I feel a little guilty running it because Ghostie is actually somewhat decent when he can force survivors to run around blind while the slugged guy can't reveal him.
But yeah, either this perk needs to change, or slugging needs to be more heavily disincentivized. I'd definitely prefer the latter, and I honestly think we should give basekit Unbreakable another try w/ some tweaks.
But if Knock Out had to change, I'd prob do something like this:
- nerf - remove the aura reading blocking for the downed survivor so people can find them and not disproportionately affect solo queue survivors
- nerf - remove the recovery progress speed penalty
- buff - the following effects apply for the entire duration the player is on the ground, instead of for only 15 secs
- keep the blindness, deafen, FOV darken for the person on the ground
- buff - survivors not actively recovering lose progress
- buff - reduce survivor crawl speed by 100%
- buff - when a survivor affected by this perk recovers, the blindness, deafen, and darken effects remain for 30 secs
Still keeps the core idea of the perk, while trying to make it a whole lot less toxic. And also if a survivor happens to get away, this still does a bit of something that can potentially throw them off.
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Okay bud
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They win the majority of the time at lower MMR, if you pit the best survivor team in the world against the best say, trapper in the world, the trapper might win 1 or 2 out of 10 games. Unless you are playing nurse at that level, you can't compete.
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It's absolutely situational.
I don't think nerfing perks over a skill issue is acceptable.
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They win more at higher MMR. Only competitive breaks even.
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I think to add on — the perk isn't strong when going against a SWF because they have the comms to counteract the perk.
Knock Out can be a pub stomper because obviously solo-queue doesn't have the resources like comms to navigate a perk like Knock Out. It's been used more since the slugging Singularity video that popularized Knock Out slugging. I agree that it needs to be reworked into something else - or at least have the blindness status effect toned down instead of permanent.
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Just take a step back and look at what it implies. Its not hard because its pretty obvious.
Some things go waaaaaay beyond simple bm and "mindgaming".
Just a few months back, we had someone here on the forums saying they where not able to play the game anymore because of that.
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Both things are not. Thats the last thing in relation to that im gonna say.
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MMR is based around deaths, hatch, and escapes. That's all (edit: whether a gain, loss, or null value), the Devs were pretty clear when the system launched about not wanting additional factors to impact the number.
A 2k / 2e either gains or loses MMR depending upon which survivors were killed and comparing their MMR to yours.
The reason i think this way is because when i watch Youtube videos of killers who are renown i always think to myself. Why arent my survivors this bad?Just a form of confirmation bias. It's like people who say 'why when I play survivor why do my teammates suck, but why I play killer the survivors are amazing'. The game code is not out to get you. The side that is better / has the advantage / is winning tends to make the other side look weak.
The amount of time it would take streamers to artificially tank their MMR would be massive, because they'd also have to be continually managing their Iri Shard / Bloodpoints so they didn't have radically different numbers between streams.
Post edited by crogers271 on2 -
I don't know why people brush off the concept of bleed outs dropping killer MMR, the devs have never specifically addressed it. Everywhere else in the game bleed outs don't count as kills, but somehow they do count for MMR? It logically makes no sense. The devs laid out what happens post match when a kill is scored, and bleed outs absolutely don't score, and they never have.
Also, they have said there are additional factors that impact the MMR numbers, like the survivor that dies first being worth the most MMR. So what happens when the first person out of the game is bled out? The devs have never talked about this, so there is no proof either way.
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I don't know why people brush off the concept of bleed outs dropping killer MMR, the devs have never specifically addressed it.They were pretty clear that for a survivor to gain MMR, they have to escape. And the MMR system is equal, the killer vs survivor go up /down in the exact same amount.
And the survivor certainly hasn't escaped.
That would mean if there was some oversight in the code a bleed out would be a null value, but we have no evidence of that.
Also - unfortunately hackers do exist, if one of them had opened up the game and saw this we would have heard of it before.
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Any form of death in a trial counts as a loss for MMR purposes, whether it’s bleed out, mori, EGC timer, etc.
For proof, go look at the DBD wiki MMR page made by dataminers where it states exactly this, that any death counts as a loss. The same MMR page that had to have certain datamined MMR info removed from it because of how many arguments it caused.
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Only when you consider "high mmr" as what BHVR does, which covers like the top 30% of a players instead of the actual top.
And it does not break even. Take the literal best trapper player in the entire world, and pit him against even the top 1000 survivors, and they are going to lose nearly every single game.
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Do you have source high mmr is 30% of playerbase? Because i remember they said it's 5% of playerbase.
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That 5% number is the one I recall them using as well, but it has been a while since we've gotten stats like that.
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They said MMR is based on kills and escapes, then they defined what kills are through the post match rating screen. This topic has come up before and someone did say a hacker showed MMR dropped with bleed outs. I haven't seen that hacker myself so I can't verify.
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Even stats changed from the last time, range can't change. I am sure they still call top 5% players as high mmr. And i don't think stats changed that much.
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Though I agree that it's a really unhealthy Perk, it's also easy to counter. Just jump into lockers when you're close to getting hit.
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Its not strong and has a less than 1% pickrate acording to nightlight, personally ive saw it used bout 3 times in my games in almost 4 years, wats obsession with nerfing this perk.
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I got a really random question but instead of making a new thread i post it here. I mostly run franklin, Weave, Discordance and Surge as my main perks. Sometimes i got another survivor across a building and its like he/she is looking at me through the wall like i can because of weave and franklin. is there any way a survivor can see Auras for up to 1 minute ? I even moved my knive left to right and this person responded by moving opposite direction.
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Object of Obsession
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I didn't say nerfing. I said reworking. The effect is very unhealthy for the game and is only strong against the weakest role, which is often stomped by it.
It should change to have a consistently good effect that is not as unhealthy as the current version.
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Although it's extremely annoying to play against as a group of solos, stupidly annoying, the fact that it doesn't catch on more is that it does very little against SWF's, borderline useless.
I've however faced it more in the past 24 hours than in the past year! Once Tru3 realises it's not going to work against the SWFs that hunt him down and sweats on during the daytime , and the teams he beats with it, he'd more than likely beat anyway, he'll stop experimenting with it and move onto something else and it'll drop off again.
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So it has a low pickrate, is not good against strong teams, and is only used to grief solo queue players. What exactly is the argument for keeping its current state now?
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Thank you very much!
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30% was probably an exaggeration, but DBD uses MMR, which is a derivation of Elo, it is known that matchmaking caps MMR at 1700 and anyone above that is likely what BHVR considers "high MMR" because people from 1700 MMR and up can be matched together and is effectively the "top bracket"
When you look at Elo, which, again, is literally the same thing as MMR, just with slightly different implementation it is a percentile distribution, as Elo is "effectively" zero sum (new players add to the pool so it inflates slightly over time). 1700 Elo and higher makes you in the top 87.61%, meaning that "high mmr" is like the top 12.39% of players.
While again, this isn't a perfect comparison, MMR is slightly different from Elo in that your highest MMR killer affects how you gain and lose MMR on even your lowest ranked killer because killer skill generally carries over for the most part for most killers. So it isn't perfectly zero sum, but it probably wouldn't be much more than a percent or 2 difference plus or minus. Games for MMR also tend to use different calculations for the "K-Value" but that doesn't have much of an effect on percentiles as it would just your swings, as K-Value determines how much elo you gain and lose for your wins.
Do you have a source for the 5% claim?
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What mindgame would that be?
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In a pool of useless perks you complain about this one. The perk does what it says it does. There's no exploit as it is being used as intended. You may not like being slugged but it was clearly intended for that purpose. So unless they fundamentally change slugging, changing this perk doesn't stop what you are all complaining about. Killers will continue putting you on the ground. Your effort is wasted.
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