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I'm going to say it.
Comments
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I would not mind having some of the weaker gen regression perks basekit, although that would take away from their respective Killers.
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Slugging is an interesting case. It wasn't a hot topic of discussion until some time ago. When you look into the story of slugging, it hasn't received any buffs or new perks that collaborate with the playstyle. Knock Out, Infectious Fright, Deerstalker, and Third are old perks. The only toy that can be considered new that helps the killer in that regard is Forced Hesitation, which isn't really great.
In fact, there is no apparent reason as to why killers are slugging more recently, until you look into the fact that the perks that encourage hooking have been severely nerfed, and the best survivor perks all benefit from getting hooked. So, as killer, it has become more optimal to not waste time hooking so you get the pressure you had in the past with gen defence perks, and won't have to deal with OTR, DS, STB, Deliverance, Resurgence, and exhaustion perks resetting.
Now, it is still not a strong playstyle. First you are putting all your eggs in one basket. Either you menage to slug all survivors, or you lose the game. Also, survivors have tons of answers to slugging. Unbreakable and Exponential are the most obvious ones, but Soul Guard, Flip Flop, Power Struggle, Buckle Up, WGLF, and Tenacity also help against it. Therefore, it is still the riskiest way to play game.
In that sense, it would be unfair to simply nerf a playstyle that isn't even strong at the moment, without compensating killers for it with that give an incentive for them to hook survivors. Pop Goes the Weasel, Pain Resonance were all excellent in the past and they really did make the trouble of hooking survivors worth it. Buffing them would solve the problem partially.
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If you were a lion would you try to kill the injured gazelle or the healthy one ?
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I'm not too sure about this. Considering how fast downs happen i would rather have a gen done than potentially 2 regressing. This community is obsessed with a few things - one of them being efficiency. A gen done is good especially if it one of these terribly unsafe ones in a 3gen. Last I heard about comp DBD they started doubling up on the first gen. Agreed on the last part though.
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You are encourge to play how you want to play. The play loop is simple to allow different play styles. Even so, players will always gravitate towards a meta. It's just nature.
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If you want slugging gone then remove the requirement to pickup and hook. You are asking the killer to risk flashlights, pallet stuns, or anything else that bhvr thinks of. Plus dragging your wiggling butt to a nearby hook that can be blocked or sabo.
It's a big time sink and sometimes leaving you on the floor is the best option.
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You almost got me, good joke lol.
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This is an interesting discussion, I think there has to be some distinction as well between slugging for pressure in a match, which most people don't seem to mind, and slugging for no reason - when you slug survivors at 5 gens or something. Also, you down someone, see someone hanging around with a flashlight, so you down them - one of them is naturally going to be slugged for some length of time…whatever "solution" there is to slugging has to take those factors into consideration (if there's even a solution for slugging).
@Yggleif I also remember those days, so you're not remembering incorrectly. It was either a straight up trade on the hook, or you needed a couple of survivors to be able to make a successful save.
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nowadays it's just simple. Survivor meta is wasting killer's time while being as efficient with your own time as survivor.
Killer meta is to attempt a snowball before too much time is wasted.
Thus, seeing that survivor meta mainly revolves around perks that are meant to waste killer's time and is tied to hooks, while spreading hooks is also a huge waste of time compared to forcing an early 3v1 (depends on survivors'chase knowledge tho), slugging and tunneling are basically two forced ways to deal with time wasted on killer side.
The biggest problem comes when BHVR doesn't look at the problem from that perspective and instead looks for a bandaid that will only suit the fun of one side, while ignoring the core problem as a whole.
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Some. Some tactical use of a down or an immediate or accidental tunnel is necessary and/or possible in some situations as an optimal, intended play.
But slugging everyone at 5 gens, leaving people to bleed out for four minutes, and being able to immediately tunnel one person out of the game with no repercussions is not and should not be allowed nor are they the intended use of these mechanics.
We have solutions for 3gens, face camping, proxying to a point, and tunnelling already (perks). We have nothing for meaningless slugs that accomplish nothing but a boring game over in five seconds when the scenario isn't the fault of Survivor altruism, but of the Killer going ham from the word go.
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I wish more people cared about the scenarios where the killer is tactically supposed to have survivors bleed out on the ground, either because the survivors placed themselves in situations where the killer can't reliably get them to a hook, or the survivors placed themselves in situations where the killer shouldn't even attempt to pick them up. There are also scenarios where a survivor bleeds out on the ground because they purposely crawled away and hid in some random part of the map. Slugging has issues on both sides of the game, but we often only hear about how slugging negatively affects survivors.
I still think the only slugging solution that fixes the problems on both sides of the game, is for a survivor to get teleported to a 2v8 cage if they have been slugged for 60 seconds.
This is the only solution I've seen that fixes the slugging issues for survivors AND killers.
Post edited by Coffeecrashing on1 -
What if proximity determined the type of slugging happening? When a survivor is downed and another waits nearby for a flashlight save, the killer typically stays close to defend the pick-up. You’ll check the surrounding area, hit the survivor with the flashlight who typically runs away injured, and then secure the down.
A possible solution is proximity-based recovery? If the killer stays within a certain range of the slug nothing changes—allowing them to defend the down as usual. But if the killer moves away, similar to the anti-camping mechanic, (but reverse because it’s not the closer you are it’s the farther you are) the slug’s recovery speeds up. The farther the killer is, the faster the survivor recovers, but only once the killer is outside a set distance.
This way, killers can still defend slugs against saves, but slugging the whole team now becomes harder and riskier, but still not impossible.
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You have to complete 5 gens at 90 charges each to power the exit gates in every trial. That is a static mechanic that is guaranteed to be present in every game.
Tunneling is something that may or may not happen.
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Killers are sometimes forced to slug survivors, and your idea would punish killers when they are forced to slug a survivor.
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For tunneling survivors should get a basket babysitter effect. It should be much harder to tunnel them but not impossible. For slugging. The biggest things are the lack of agency and there should be safeguards to prevent 4 man slug and drawing out the endgame. like if there are 3 downed they can pick themselves up (maybe add a deep wound for doing so). And if there's only 2 left they can pick themselves up. Something stronger should also be rewarded for hooking like a mini pop that give and extra 5-10% regression
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Could you explain your concern further? With proximity-based recovery, there’s no punishment for slugging and defending against a save. If you down a survivor and stay nearby to prevent a flashlight or sabo play, nothing changes. The idea only speeds up the slugs recovery if the killer leaves the area entirely.
If you slug one survivor and then cross the map to down another, you’re no longer defending the slug, which is where the increased recovery would come into play. This doesn’t give survivors a free pick-up like base Unbreakable; they still need a teammate to revive them. But it makes slugging multiple survivors more risky, unless they’re all grouped together in which it being proximity based would mean it wouldn’t affect the killer at all anyway.
If your concern is that this punishes slugging the entire team, then yes—that’s the point. The goal is to discourage full-team slugging without removing the option to slug for pressure or strategic reasons. As Mandy mentioned, there’s a difference between tactical slugging and unnecessary slugging. My idea I believe does help with this.
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But will you get a boon meg who will go around touching totems and moving her boon when she really doesn't have to
Will you get a basement meg who will cross the entire map every time she gets injured so she can self care slightly faster
Will you get goobers who stand around and relax for the first 30s open a chest maybe cleanse a totem before finally sitting on a gen
Will you get teammates who are heal crazy and must be healthy 24/7 or stand next to you by the gen until you get off to heal them (usually against a perma t3 myers)
Sure the "number" is static but the players are not, some games you get people who seem allergic to gens some games you get teammates popping 3 gens after the first chase.
Just because its a static number doesn't mean people play into it in a static way. Some people will crush gens at any cost, some people won't. Some will bring toolboxes and perks (aka not a static number anymore and thats not even counting skillchecks) and some people won't.
Gens being completed at a normal pace may or may not happen.
Perks,
Regression,
Gen kicking,
Slowdown,
Blocking,
You can't tell me its going to be 90 charges every game, because sure the default number is that, but is that how it actually plays out, almost never.
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Defending against a save sometimes requires leaving the slugged survivor, especially if it is a low mobility M1 killer.
If a killer is forced to slug a survivor because a nearby teammate has a flashlight or toolbox, that teammate is obviously going to run away from the slugged survivor if the killer tries to chase them. You're basically saying killers should be punished if they chase after the teammate.
In this scenario, chasing after the teammate, even if it results in leaving the slugged survivor, is slugging for strategic reasons.
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I understand what you’re saying, but I think we’re looking at different scenarios. If a killer is forced to slug a survivor because of any nearby teammates, that recovery speed does not activate. It only activates once the killer has left the slug entirely. The actual proximity range I am unsure about but using something like the anti camping feature is a possibility. If you are standing directly by the slug, this Is the equivalent of being away from the hook for anti-camp, which means It would never activate. If you are across the map, this is the equivalent of face camping, which, then it would activate. And again, it’s only for faster recovery, not a self pickup.
If you want to chase after the teammate, even if it means running across the map therefore leaving the slug unattended, there should be risk involved with that. And this still gives killer control, because they will decide if it is worth leaving the slug to try and slug someone else if they have ran far enough away to prompt the faster recovery. It gives a killer a choice if they would rather risk that slug getting up to try and get another down, or to walk back to the slug and secure the hook. Killer is still dominant in this scenario. You get to choose weather it is activated or not.
When it comes to your concerns as an M1 killer, slugging typically isn’t the best strategy regardless because of the lack of mobility. Certain killers do better with certain strategies and it’s the players choice to pick both the killer they use and the strategies they use for that killer. If you prefer to slug heavily then using a killer like Blight or Twins makes more sense. Trying to slug everyone as someone like Trapper is not going to be very effective, because that strategy doesn’t compliment his power and abilities. But that doesn’t mean that slugging itself should be made easier or that it is not deserving of some possible changes simply because some killers struggle with slugging more than others. The same reasons why certain perks or base kit suggestions that would greatly benefit Solo Q shouldn’t be added because of the power imbalance it could create in SWF.
I understand that you may have the opinion that slugging shouldn’t be touched at all, and that is a valid opinion to have as are everyone else’s. But clearly BHVR is looking into the possibility of making some changes in regards to slugging, so offering up ideas that don’t take away a killers ability to slug but making it more risky is a good place to start. My reply was directly a response to Mandy, who talked about the struggle to identify the distinction between slugging that is strategic vs. slugging for no reason. And I believe that using proximity is a valid way to make that distinction.6 -
In my scenario, the killer isn't trying to slug everyone. They are in a situation where they are forced to slug. The killer literally doesn't have the option to hook the survivor while the teammate is nearby. Killers shouldn't be punished when they literally don't have the option to hook a survivor.
And I have the opinion that if survivors are slugged for 60 seconds, they should automatically be teleported to a 2v8 cage, somewhere random on the map. That fixes the survivor-sided problem of survivors being slugged for excessive amounts of time, AND fixes the killer-sided problem of being forced to slug survivors for excessive amounts of time.
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id enjoy talking about this topic like that actually so please hit me up if you ever wanna talk about it and communicate some ideas on how to help with it
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i love the way you think so keep it up buddy👍️
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I apologize if my explinations aren't very clear, as what you're describing does seem like it wouldn't effect my solution at all, but perhaps there is a miscommunication.
Your position (if I am understanding correctly) is that the killer shouldn't be punished when not having the option to hook with teammates nearby. And I agree with that, if the teammates are nearby and the killer is trying to stop the teammates from picking up, then the killer is nearby as well. They can't stop the teammates from picking up the slug if they themselves are not near the slug. This faster recovery only activates if the killer is far away, like across the map. In my opinoin, if a killer isn't trying to slug everyone then there is no reason for them to be halfway across the map. If you're trying to defend or secure the slug then you need to be by the slug, and this recovery wouldn't activate if you were nearby.
In any case, perhaps we end it here. I offered an Idea you disagree with, and that's completely fine. It's good to look at things from multiple perspectives, and I appreciate you sharing yours. Gliyn! :)
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One thing that I don't really like about your suggestion is the fact that you rather want to punish the killer for doing good/keep pressure. In my opinion, the changes the developers did made slugging so much common. Two/nearly three years ago we had no big slugging problem but then the developers increased the hooktimer and introduced many strong hookperks for survivors while nerfing hookperks for killers. Don't get me wrong, I don't like mindless slugging and bleeding out either (for that we need a different solution) but instead of punishing the killer for slugging pressure, the killer should be rewarded for hooking since this will already solve the slugging problem - like I said before nothing has change that made slugging stronger, hooking got weaker and that made slugging better. Some killers like Dredge or Oni get rewarded for hooking survivors and - I think - other killers should get the same reward like Deathslinger automatically reloads for hooking a survivor. A general killer buff after hooking a survivor like 5% haste + Undetectable for 10 seconds could encourage the killer to hook the survivor and leave the area to gofer a different survivor (camping and tunnling gets also fixed). The developers should also introduce more perks that reward the killers for hooking like Firends Till The End is one of the healthiest perks in the game because it rewards hooking and denies camping and tunnling by default. We need more perks like this one. Some perks should also get a rework or tweak and reward the killer for hooking like Coup de Gras based on hooks instead of finished generators or buff Furity Chase and make it work for every hook. On the other hand, strong slugging perks and strategies should get a nerf like Knock Out or Third Seal because they give killers an unfair advantage against SoloQ.
Overall, I think buffing and rewarding hooking will solve the extremes of slugging. In the end, it will still be an option or a strategy but these situations will be okay because they are examples that Mandy gave us (slugging for pressure, slugging because someone else is there ect.)
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The killer sided problem with slugging isn't that "hooks aren't valued enough". The killer sided problem is that the killer is sometimes forced to slug survivors for excessive amounts of time, and that isn't fun for either side of the game.
Teleporting slugged survivors to a 2v8 cage, fixes all the problems with excessively long slugging, because it removes it from the game. It's a good compromise for both sides of the game.
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the slugging issue has nothing to do with slugging for genuine pressure. It has to do with killers slugging multiple players at 5/4 gens which is clearly done out of spite and is suffering and explosion right now or slugging for the 4K which is also rife. Those are the situations that need addressing and unfortunately it’s something that will probably need to impact the killer experience across the board. But there again the game has changed so much over the years I think this is just another change that needs to happen to protect the health of a game the devs clearly didn’t expect to last this long.
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But when I get forced to slug, why do I get punished for that? Your situation says that I am in a lose-lose-situation because on the one hand I cannot hook the survivor due to the situation but I can't leave the slug or otherwise I lose the pressure. Giving the killer a reward for hooking, can solve this situation because the reward might remove the pressure on the killer that otherwise forces him to slug.
The killer sided problem is also that slugging is much better than hooking. Carniveris and many other players did an experiment where they tested which strategy is better: Hooking or Slugging? And the result was that slugging was much better because you had more pressure on the survivors than when you hook them by saving so much time (no pick up and hook animation with walking to hook, no survivor that bodyblocks you with DS/OTR, no 70 - or even 100 seconds - of a hooked survivor while the others stay on generators ect.)
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Hey, thanks for the reply!
I’d like to start this discussion off with actually agreeing with you for the most part, about incentivizing hooking over anything else. I 100% believe In this as well, and believe the game being centered around hooks or kills would make the game much more enjoyable for both “sides”. I’m been fairly vocal about this as well in some past discussions, and I agree that hooking should be prioritized, and there are multiple ideas and ways to accomplish that, but that is a different discussion.
My point in the solution being a proximity slugging mechanic is because there seems to be a chance that changes will be made to slugging overall, and I was simply responding to a very specific point made in the discussion. In a perfect world I think it would be great for DBD to aim for hooks over kills, but currently there has been no indication that those kind of changes are even being considered, unlike slugging.
And while I do believe that the overhaul of the game towards hooks would be the healthiest and best solution to many things, I don’t actually agree that it would simply solve excessive slugging. This is probably where we disagree (which is okay!)I think a good example of this was in the first iteration of 2v8, when saves were not possible, no sabo, no flashlights, hooks were all but guaranteed assuming you didn’t leave them on the ground for a long period of time. But as we know, that didn’t stop it from happening, and it happened so much that In The next iteration of 2v8, they added flashlights saves, pallet saves, and a base-kit unbreakable in an effort to discourage that kind of play.
I’m not using this as a way to say “killers just like to slug for no reason” but rather to highlight that if slugging is the path of least resistance, it will naturally be taken (same with tunneling) The goal shouldn’t just be to make hooks more rewarding than slugging—it should also be to ensure excessive slugging comes with more risk to discourage it.0 -
I read the part of the slugging questions in the survey too and then saw this topic and your sluggingfix suggestions. I'm just a little bit afraid that when the developers nerf slugging in the wrong way by punishing killers that after that something more evil will grow up. We had this in the past: Otzdarva made a video of how tunnling will become more popular due to different nerfs to playstyles and he was right. Then slugging became more common due to the fact that the developers nerfed tunnling and camping in the wrong direction - these two did need a nerf to make the game more fun, but it created a new issue. Therefore, I hope the developers will do the right solution for slugging by making hooking more rewarding because I agree that the game should be around hooking and that hookstages should be more rewarded than kills - going for different survivors and don't feel stupid when doing this. Introducing a new feature also has always the potential to be abused in the wrong way. However, I do agree that excessive slugging (like in a 2v1 situation where you slug for the 4K or let all four survivors bleed out to win and avoid lucky 4% or a hole build around slugging) should be limited or impossible and a hookreward won't fix it. But here - I think - it will be an already good step to nerf strong slugging perks like Knock Out and Thrid Seal. Giving survivors a quick communication wheel can also be helpful because slugging is stronger against SoloQ (e.g. one goes for the heal and not both or tell teammates what they should do since some players need a teamleader that tells them what to do to help the team). Same with showing teammates' perks to know if someone has Unbreakable and with a communication wheel if this one will use it. These things will also help in many other situations and make SoloQ much better - in my opinion.
From my experience, the reason why slugging became more popular in the second 2v8 was the generatorspeed change. Many players criticised it because it felt so bad to get punished for hooking by giving survivors a genspeed - the same for getting a genspeed nerf for completing generators. The main idea of the feature was good but badly implemented. The rescue option, on the other hand, was implemented to give survivors more interaction with the killers to encourage players to play more survivors. From my experience, it didn't happen that often - at least from my killer experience, but due to long qtimes I become always become a survivor main during this time. So it's interesting to hear that other players made the experience that the rescue options on the survivorside made slugging more common.
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Auto hooking as a reward for slugging is a compromise like the Treaty of Versailles was a compromise.
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It's much better than pretty much every other suggestion I've seen, which was 100% survivor sided, and 0% killer sided.
Because, really, look through the other solutions people gave for slugging, and ask yourself "does this solution care about both sides of the game"???????
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I do believe we are both on the same page when it comes to your entire first paragraph. I agree with the fear of them possibly over nerfing or over buffing mechanics like this as well, which is why I made a suggestion that I believe would be fair to both "sides" in the first place. It sounds like we are both in the same mindset that making hooking overall stronger, and more rewarding would be the best possible outcome for the game. I also agree to your mentions of changes to specific perks, and I am all for a quick communication wheel to Solo Q! Here's hoping that we see a future DBD like this!
When it comes to the 2v8 comment, I want to clairfy. So, the second version of 2v8, the one in which you are referring to with the genspeed change, I do agree with your points. I understood why killers slugged in that version to try and mitigate the generator bonus, and now they had flashlights/pallet saves possible to deal with, so it's very understandably why killers slugged in those situations, and it was required to do so during certain points.
What my example brought up wasn't that version of 2v8, but the one that came before it. In the version before that one, it was impossible to get saves at all. No pallet saves, or flashlight saves, because the killer would just stomp on a survivor and they would be immediatley teleported to a hook, they didn't have to pick up. Slugging is an important tactic because it serves as a counter to saves. But in that first 2v8, those saves were not possible, therefore you would expect slugging not to be common, because there was no reason to do so, but that was not the case. I am unsure how much it happened as BHVR hadn't released those stats, but it happened enough that they felt it was important to try and essentially offer a counter - to a counter. Slugging was popular in both the 1st 2v8, and the 2nd 2v8, but the 2nd 2v8 had those typical legitimate reasons to slug, while the 1st 2v8 did not.
In any case, I feel very much on the same page with you when it comes to many of your thoughts and feelings on the game. I want healthier, happier gameplay for everyone, and it seems you do too! So while It may have come across that i want to "punish" slugging, please know I am only talking about excessive slugging, not slugging to defend a slug. If any slugging changes happen, I want to ensure that it doesn't strip killers away from a counter they need, but also encourages slugging to be more effective as a counter rather than an entire playstyle/tactic.
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This is true. I dislike slugging for too long as a general rule and try to do it as little as possible, but sometimes, it's just necessary. Especially as an M1 with low mobility.
I am a Killer Main that would really rather just hook you and continue the game. I'm not one of these players out here four man slugging at five gens or doing these sorts of multiple slugs on purpose whatsoever. I find it boring to sit for 4 minutes and even more boring when the game doesn't last long enough.
I am a Dredge Main. I primarily likes mobility Killers, but I am learning Killers with lower mobility to force myself to get better at chase macro because I'm weaker at it. I've noticed as someone like Myers or Ghostface or Pig, you really do need to leave slugs sometimes as a form of pressure. In fact it can be beneficial to use slugs as bait like this for some Killers to do this, because it opens opportunities for them to use their power or create zones of defense without having to 3gen or tunnel, especially if the team they're against likes to pop gens quickly or is too altruistic.I can count a few times I have, in the course of learning Ghostface for instance, used a slug to bait stalk for later on someone, or to punish someone throwing a teammate under the bus as one of the last two people (and then I usually give the slug hatch since I know that's probably annoying for the slug to be used this way). I had a game on Yamaoka recently as Ghostface where I didn't have anywhere else to be because I had two people dead but nobody was on generators. I had one of them not engaging at all, just hiding for hatch after I downed their friend instead of looking for one of the last couple gens to do during a very long chase. I felt bad for their teammate, so I left the down, sat in the Shrine, then stalked the hider when they finally came out and then let the original slug go.
I've also needed to leave slugs in a cluster of gens because there were no other gens in range I could defend easily, I had to do this as Pig once on Red Forest because all the other gens on the other side of the map were too far for me to defend, I was out of my traps, and if I left the cluster and my slug (who happened to be there, I didn't intentionally do this) I would have lost all of my pressure.
In both of these cases, if I were Dredge or Sadako, I could have zipped over and checked other gens for other Survivors, then come back. if I were Unknown, I could have gone to my Hallucination and done that. If I were Houndmaster or Twins, I could have sent Victor or Snug to check in that direction. But because I was a low mobility M1, I didn't have much choice here.
The issue extends further than this in that sometimes, maligned and annoying tactics can be the proper tactical play to gain some pressure or an advantage to leverage later. I've had to stalk hooks as Ghostface as a form of defense when Survivors just won't leave them, or keep being super altruistic - I'm not intending to proxy, that's just where everyone is, and multiple slugs can happen as a result of them letting me stalk them. I've had cases as Pig where everyone has a trap on but they won't help their friend because they all want the traps off, so the fourth person stays slugged and bleeds out through no fault of my own. I have many times had several Survivors sabo every hook I could feasibly get to, meaning if I didn't slug everyone in range this way (they were nowhere else…) then I would have no pressure until my hooks came back even though I didn't want to slug. As both these Killers, I have had many cases where if I didn't keep an eye on a nearby slug I knew would result in me finding someone to hit from ambush, I wouldn't find anyone. As both Killers, I've had to use a slug setup to defend areas because I can't get to elsewhere in time as well, and I've also had Survivors crawl off and lose themselves this way, accidentally resulting in their own bleedout when I didn't mean it.For Killers like these, they don't have the luxury or the option not to engage in some slugging sometimes. They can't afford to tunnel as they aren't mobile enough to make use of it, and they might be forced to proxy areas because they can't reach where other Survivors are in time to defend the rest of the map even with maps being this small. They just do not have the mobility to check everywhere and "play nice" the way Survivors might want them to, because they do not have options. They functionally HAVE to play this way, and it's intentional they play this way, because their powers are best used to engage in interaction opportunities this way.
So, that's kind of why some amount of slugging, and to a lesser degree tunnelling and camping, must stay. Until these Killers no longer need to use it as a primary way to pressure, because they otherwise don't have options and have no choice.
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I wanted to address this in a separate post so my first didn't get too long, it's already long enough!
I really think most people realize slugging is sometimes necessary. But what most people want, Mandy, is for the following situations to be addressed by an antislug mechanic:
- Having to slug at 2 people left in order to find the last person for a 4k, especially when that search takes forever to do because someone hides for hatch,
- Killers slugging people on purpose so they can allow them to bleed out for four minutes, especially in cases where it's all of the Survivors left in the round and the Killer actually refuses to hook, and
- Killers like Billy or Nurse coming into the game with the sole purpose of slugging everyone in a Survivor Pile as fast as possible and being able to easily do this before the Survivors have any chance to feasibly recover from this assault.
That is, the main problems people have seem to be with slugging for hatch/the 4k, true toxic slugging, and what I refer to personally as "Slug-Rushing" (which is only possible on some Killers).
Realistically, how could we fix these? My ideas:
- Slugging for 4k/Hatch: Have some sort of info for the Killer doesn't bleed someone out searching, as that seems to be the real issue and not just looking for the last guy to prevent hatch. Alternately, punish hiding for hatch much more severely, since this usually happens because one Survivor is trying to wait for hatch to the detriment of their teammate, not because the other Survivor is doing anything helpful. In cases where the last Surv is close by, this doesn't need to be done because both Survivors are easily gotten without leaving anyone slugged.
- Toxic Slugging: This should never happen. If a Killer is holding a slug like this, or many, I think an AFC-like feature could help.. At the end of the timer in this case, the Survivor (or multiples if many in a cluster are slugged like this) automatically gets up, and has Endurance and Haste. This only applies if the Killer is within 4 m or less, does not go through floors (like AFC doesn't), and only after one minute of time has elapsed (as it doesn't take you more than a minute to punish altruism where everyone is in one area). It turns off entirely when the Killer begins hooking Survivors within that one minute timer, so as not to punish plays made to halt overly enthusiastic altruism plays by Survivors. In addition, perhaps decrease the bleedout timer to 3 minutes so people aren't sitting there for a long time, and then rework perks like Knockout to make Bleedout happen more quickly similar to Monstrous Shrine (thus adding pressure without encouraging slugging too much).
- Slug-Rushing: The above solution can also come into play if the game determines a Killer has downed many people but not hooked within the first 3 minutes of a round, AND no more than 2 generators are completed, but with a much faster timer (something like 30 seconds). This means a Billy who comes in to push slugs at 5 gens can't do it as easily. Care would be needed to ensure this doesn't hit Killers genuinely unable to do this, however.
What do the rest of you guys think, are any of these feasible solutions for both sides? We certainly don't need to punish needed slugs for pressure, but these sorts of problematic slugs have to go.
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I am quite pleased with all the responses my OP has gotten. I haven't felt the need to interject anywhere, I figured it better to let people discuss uninterrupted but seeing as the thread has been pushed to the wayside due to Freddy B O O G E R S rework in the ptb amongst other things I feel now is appropriate to further contribute. Firstly -
Mandy has made an excellent point here. There absolutely is a distinction to be made that I feel is typically overlooked. Some killer players really do make an effort to not ruin the other sides experience and like I said originally; slugging is built into the game whether we like it or not. If you are preforming proper counterplay as killer by avoiding flashlight/pallet saves etc. someone is bound to end up a slug for a moment. On the other more unfortunate side of that dastardly coin there are the killer players who have taken to the unholy "slugging for the 4k" which in theory could be considered another valid strategy for killers to secure their bp (typically not the case) One could argue that there is valid counter play strategies to avoid your whole team getting slugged, sure. Most of the time that doesn't matter and your team ends up on the ground anyway and unless someone has unbreakable and hella gamer swag you are completely at the mercy of the killer player at that point. Problems arise here and I think something no one acknowledges enough is… What is BHVr supposed to do about toxic players who choose to ruin the game for others? Hence Mandy's statement "if there even is a solution for slugging" They can't control people obviously, they could make more rules and threaten toxic playstyles with harsher punishments but that always has a chance of backfiring and/or effecting players who have only had the best intentions. Among other things - these are the issues BHVr has to consider before pulling the trigger and making changes willy nilly.
When the gameplay loop consists of kills and escapes. I can only imagine it's hard to completely change the fundamentals, after all… At least in my mind the allure of the game is being able to survive and/or kill people as our favorite characters from movies or games that people like including the base game killers of course. When you disincentivize the whole point of the game just to solve an issue that is caused solely by the playerbase it loses a lot of it's allure. In the same vein - when the issues caused soley by the playerbase are not addressed or dealt with properly over the span of YEARS the game still loses allure. So a good start would be all about finding a middle ground and I think you're on the right track here.
Mr. tRoSiTy and Pulsar make an excellent point as well. All in all no matter what is or what could be; the biggest problem comes from players who abuse the game in order to ruin peoples fun. As a killer player I must admit I've had moments of weakness especially early on when I would get frustrated with survivors and decide it's time for me to have fun by denying the fun of others. Which is such a loser, chud, sad mindset but it obviously does happen. I see a lot of people make this point then immediately follow it up with hypocrisy by proposing killers should have no legs or arms and survivors get a basekit bazooka that can instantly open the exit gates regardless of how many gens are left (over-exaggerating for comedic effect there if you couldn't tell) Realistically we should try to find a way to deter people from playing like giant buttholes.
All in all I hope that the devs can take something away from this thread and others like it in order to truly improve quality of life for everyone equally so that we can continue to enjoy their game.
Little wholesome side note here. I heard about DBD when it came out through payday 2 with the crossover masks they added and I was like "these masks look horrible this dead by daylight game is going nowhere" and now I play it religiously despite all the problems. Payday is cooked and DBD is on top I mean look at this
All the love to Almir and the overkill team but this is pretty funny. I will mention payday 2 has nearly the exact same players as DBD on steam charts but it is just steam charts and that's not the true statistic considering crossplay and such. This has everything to do with payday 3's unfortunately poor reception and nothing to do with dbd. Again just a funny little aside I wanted to point out seeing as I've been reading a lot of "this game is doomed" type of posts lately lol.
Post edited by Na1ts1rhc on1 -
I really don't trust "killer mains" who entertain this kind of nonsense. Killer has it harder than ever before, not easier. I see it every day, because I load in, go for 2-4 hooks, boom, all gens done. That's WITH Corrupt and Deadlock. The survivors aren't even that good in chase or on gens. They're just efficient enough in each to where you lose almost no matter what, because it's gonna be a close match no matter what. And I called this, mid survivors beating really good killers, but nobody believed. You just can't take away every possible avenue for the killer to have pressure, and expect them to stop the gens anymore. It's all a farce. It's all about getting lucky enough to face bad survivors. You can't compromise with these people, because they think that killers seeing aura, or survivors not having base Unbreakable, is bad game design. They couldn't recognize good game design if it hit them at 80mph. You're literally talking to a brick wall, because the compromises are always 1-way, always killer nerfs. All you'll do is affirm to the devs: "See? Even killer mains agree these changes should go forth" and then killers get even more essential strength taken away. There are countless matches right now that are close when they have no place being close. Because why? Survivors holding a button down? That's what we need to address.
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“And I called this, mid survivors beating really good killers, but nobody believed.”
How are you “really good and high mmr” yet you lose every game?
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