"Killers already aren't allowed to facecamp"

And why is the a bad thing? Why does anyone need to facecamp?

DBD has been arguably the most Killer Sided it's been and Killer players still feel shafted and a struggle. Shocker when Survivor complains about certain playstyles instead of asking for reasonable matches. It's always Killer desiring fair play but are hypocrites.

This is like arguing that removing infinites took away player agency.

Both sides need agency and exercising that agency should require relatively equal levels of skill.

That was the problem with face camping. The killer could just stand there and all of the work was on the survivors to pull off the rescue.

You can still camp if you want, you just have to put a little more thought into it.

That was the problem with 3 genning. Killers could lock down an area against anything but a top level SWF and just run around kicking gens.

You can still use a 3 gen as part of your killer strategy, you just have to put a little more thought into it.

And its not true to just say this is on killers only. Not only do we have old examples like infinites, but we can look to more current examples like: FTP+Buckle Up, MFT, dead hard twice.

In all those cases the survivors could still engage in the same mechanic, they can still rescue downed survivors, they can still loop, they can still use exhaustion mechanics. It's just not as easy as it once was.

Something about 10 extra seconds on hook isn't fair.

The slugging thing is a recent development. Just a month ago, it wasn't that bad.

Most of the aspects you mention, are nothing new.

So again, what changed?

This is a self-inflicted injury. Certain streamers (who I won't name) decided to punish survivors due to BHVR's balancing choices, and have inspired killer players with bad attitudes to do the same. Now BHVR has to come in and fix the mess these players have made.

I don't blame killer players for exploiting this game's poorly thought out gameplay loop. I blame the devs for not having enough forsight to predict that having a gameplay loop, where players are forced to do nothing for minutes at a time, was a bad idea. They have built this game up on a dodgy foundation. Every addition to the game has just made it more complicated to fix.

It's true. If you're struggling as killer and people say, "Just get better at chase. Just get better at gens." that doesn't help, because of course you can always be better at those things, but the improvement for a lot of us isn't going to be night and day. It would be like going from 95% of our full potential to 96% of our full potential, over a year-long period of "improvement."

The reality still is that if you go against a survivor team who knows to abuse the brokenness of the game, you physically can't do anything. Even with tunneling, they just rush gens. Even with 3-genning, they just yo-yo/shift W. Even with slugging, they have comms. And the majority just seem to be tone-deaf to the killer POV. They suggest all these changes to make the killer role weaker, weak beyond belief, and when asked, "Well, what can the killer do then to win?" they say, "Just get better. The game is easy for you already."

The answers they give us are not acceptable, because they don't line up with the reality of the role. "Just do X and you win EZ every time." That might work for Nurse or Blight, but what about the 95% of other killers who need way more help just to have an even playing field? Have you even played those killers, or gone against good teams with them? It's night and day to how you see the game. Like, when have I just been able to hop on Wraith or Freddy, or do some random meme build, and not get crushed for it? Only when I'm going against uncoordinated, inefficient noobs.

The killer role's problem is that the average killer doesn't have enough power or agency to get the survivors before time's up (gens are all done and everyone runs out). The survivor role's problem is that in solo they get bad teammates who have no place being in their lobby, meanwhile the killer is actually trying to win. So like I always say, this doesn't get fixed until matchmaking gets fixed. After that, we can see what's OP at what level (just disregard bottom level, where survivors don't know what their objective is), what undesirable things are happening and why, other factors like how many hooks and gens were done, and use that data to balance the game. Right now, that can't happen, because it's mostly random matchmaking like we're in 2018 again.

Absolutely not. When a match of non-stop bad chases can be recovered for survivors by 1 good chase, but a series of really good chases by the killer doesn't let him come back from 1 bad chase, something is fundamentally wrong with the game.

I'm trying to think of what agency you're referring to, and I'm grasping at straws. They move faster, and can* get the survivors in chase almost no matter what, but that doesn't cement a favorable position for the killer. If the survivors know how to waste enough time at tiles, and take long enough to go down, it doesn't matter if the killer's time sink "pays off," because he's lost the game by that point. Even if a survivor does the worst chase imaginable, like instantly getting downed or grabbed before they even had the chance to run, that's a crumb of momentum, and doesn't bring the killer closer to victory unless the rest of the survivors' chases are like that.

So many times I've played solo and was in a lost match, and then we brought it back, or came close to doing so, because I and 1 other teammate decided to sit on gens for like 1 minute, or gave the killer a decent chase instead of going down instantly. It's like, "What? We could have done this the whole time?" Yes, you can. And that kind of highlights how survivors have agency, not killer. I've never been killer on the cusp of losing and decided, "I'm just gonna do X now" and have that be enough for me to bring it back. I've only experienced that as survivor.

You could nuke survivors, and slugging wouldn't go away. Players now know that it is the most effective way of winning. So the strat is here to stay. Even before the hook timer change, and StB was introduced, slugging everyone to death was very effective.

My guess as to why it's become more prevalent, is that most players only seem to only realise how good something is when it's shown to them. A high MMR killer steamer might struggle against strong teams, starts slugging everyone to death, and in the process, give permission to their viewers to do the same. Even though the viewers are likely struggling due to their lower skill, and not the game's balance. Which I'm guessing is why hardcore slugging seems to be everywhere, not just in high level play.

It's going to need to be addressed at some point. But I have no idea how BHVR will do it without messing it up. Adding basekit UB solves one problem (sort of), but enables other problems (things like pallets saves), which can make it impossible for the killer to pick that survivor up.

To be fair, the good option here is to already have someone else in chase, ideally already being carried to the hook, when the unhook happens. You don't actually have to care about any of these tools if you're already generating more pressure to keep the team on the back foot.

We'll Make It and Resurgence are good - very good even - but they aren't so good you need to deny the survivors any ability to use them or you'll lose outright. Ultimately, you should probably expect survivors to be healed when you next chase them after an unhook, so all you're "taking" here is a few extra seconds on generators. If you're already in a chase and close to getting a hook by that point, you can make up for that by dragging survivors off generators again pretty quickly.

The thing you need to be doing is forcing reactions, you can have ultra fast chases but if you aren't actually using them to generate pressure like that it won't help as much.

That doesn't make that much of a difference to this principle, outside of making chases generally longer.

Even if the survivor you're chasing after getting a hook immediately runs to a safe area, you're still occupying three survivors at once. That chase being difficult isn't like, good for you, but it doesn't change the value you'd be getting from the hook to begin with- just means you're less likely to have the chase finished before the unhook, especially since most survivors like to save sooner rather than later.

Shoulder the Burden only affects tunnelling, not hooking in general.

A 60% kill rate could hypothetical result in as low as a 20% win rate, but there are three key problems with this point

1: A 60% kill rate could also hypothetically lead to an 80% win rate.

2: In a 20% win rate hypothetical, the killer has a 0% loss rate, which somehow gets overlooked whenever it gets mentioned.

3: Nightlight data gives us a pretty general indication of where a 60% kill rate ends up on the win rate scale - A 52 to 55% win rate, a draw rate of 11 to 15% and a loss rate of 31 to 35%.

A 60% kill rate almost certainly results in the killer winning considerably more games than they lose, and likely winning more games than they lose and draw.

Sorry, that doesn't add up. That one perk, that almost nobody uses has drastically changed the way you play? Have you played at the time, when perks like and bt and ds where in their prime and actually punished you hard for hooking? I assume no, because otherwise your opinion would be similar to mine. People are greatly exaggerating if you ask me.

Content creators are not my compass that have to tell me how to play. I have my own head to think and decide. I hope most people do.

sorry, i didn't mean for it to sound like us vs. them, i just wanted to point out how the game is nowadays basically revolving around both sides technically skipping mechanics because BHVR is doing terrible job at actually trying to balance the game out against healthy aspects.

I haven't even seen them actually releasing a proper change to deal with problems in the game. Two of recent changes that are also nothing but bandaids too were also hook respawns and +10s to hook timers.

Point of hook respawns was to what? Reduce the slugging problem? But it also removed strategical aspect of hooking while BHVR further buffed e.g. sabo strats (which are extremely healthy for the game) in response to that. They simply aren't playtesting this game nowhere near properly.

Facts. You're 100% on the money here @radiantHero23 per usual. The Jabronis complaining that are playing this game today would have crumbled after getting DH'd once pre-nerf. I was that masochist playing m1 killers back when every surv in every lobby had a guaranteed DS at 35% wiggle bar. Literally, when every perk was at it's strongest, when tiles would waste even more of your time with less time to defend gens, and never, ever, before was it even close to anything like this. I know anyone who's seen the game and it's community change over the years like I have will agree. It was never this bad even when survs actually had almost every advantage stacked in their favor from perks to add-ons and map layout. We have to change the culture and take our game back. People are getting fed up with it, and if something doesn't change then we will ultimately get Dev intervention, whether that's through an unbreakable basekit system, or something else they have in store. So, really one way or another the issue will be addressed.

Are killer players genuinely okay? Have you played survivor for even a second?

The norm for the past few years are that BHVR buffs killers, and nerfs survivors. You really can't get any more entitled than this.

The developer’s stats show kill rates are increasing and they have gone on record that they would like to see it even higher. Isn’t the kill rate currently something like above 60%?

If any que times are going up, it will be killers’. There is a reason why the incentive to play survivor is more frequent than to play killer.