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Why killers have notification that there was Invocation used?
Those perks are already laughably bad 😂
Why killers need to have information that there are also survivors in/next to basement for next several seconds?
Comments
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To prevent stuff like:
"How were you able to do gens so much quicker? You must be a hacker!"
"How were you able to see me so often? You must be a hacker!"
While making hackusations is much easier than bothering to read what a perk does, at least the devs provide the necessary info so that we have a way of knowing what is going on.
Seeing that icon means all gens now have 10 less charges and can be repaired faster, which is crucial information to adjust our playstyle if necessary.11 -
Same reason survivors learn when a hex is in play: so they can adjust their gameplay accordingly.
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This icon is exclusively used for player debuffs though.
Hexes put a debuff on the player, and they modify things like health states (exposed), blindness, or action speed. It's the same reason that dissolution gives a debuff icon, because the result of that player action is changed. And same thing for killer with residual manifest binding them.
Invocations aren't modifying the killer, they're modifying the environment. Weaving spiders affects gens. And while the crow one does give an aura for the killer, that isn't consistent with other perks either. Survivors don't get a notification that corrupt intervention is in play, or that spies from the shadows just gave away their position. Pretty sure only the survivor on hook gets a monstrous shrine notification, and everyone else has to just figure it out that hooks have been modified.
So it's weird that these already awful perks are that inconsistent.
I'm not necessarily opposed to giving more information, but the perk already has an audio queue that it went off, and makes a survivor permanently broken. For the entirety of the game's lifetime that's been enough information and they force you to learn game mechanics the hard way. Maybe they're adding this more places, but so far this is an outlier to their philosophy of "just read the perk/item/add-on description" to learn the game.
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I think BHVR believes Invocations to be stronger than they are. They really think these are game-changing perks for survivors. So they’ve tamped them down with a bunch of bizarre drawbacks like the notification.
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+1 😂😅
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Hex: Ruin for example doesn't put a debuff on the player themselves at all, but still marks player as cursed. It just notifies you that you need to adjust your gameplay accordingly even though you already know it's in play when you let off a gen.
Same with invocations. Killer can't know you have them and adjust their gameplay accordingly when they aren't aware you have it. Only way of knowing is player getting perma broken out of nowhere, but you still don't know what invocation perk you are dealing with.
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lol… Hear me out as insane as it sounds it has to be this. Nothing else makes sense
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So even with ruin (and pentimento) the game doesn't notify you immediately. You have to touch a generator (for pentimento) and let go (for ruin) and actually interact with the gen to know the perk is in play.
There's no audible or visual indicator that the perk is active unless you're looking at the hex totem directly, or trigger it (as above). So shouldn't the killer have to go to the basement to get this icon?
Or, by that same logic, killers should see the debuff icon when kicking a gen, or the first time a crow is disturbed. Not right away.
(And spies still doesn't notify at all, so that's entirely inconsistent there)
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It's the game saying you've just won the match (as killer).
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How did this make it any distance up the priority ladder? It's one of the worst perks in the game, but this little icon thingy gets a priority pass, while survivors being able to see one another's perk loadouts is a 'somewhere in the coming years' thing?
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you get the indicator once the perk actually comes into the play. You won't get notification about Ruin or Penti until you tap/let go of a gen first time because there is nothing to come into play for
You won't get notification about invocation either (no notification about survs doing it) until it's effect actually steps into the field (gens permanently their completion charges reduced)
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Because if it's fair that Survivors get a notification that Weave Attunement is in play (and it is, and they should), then Killers need to know what perks are in play to play around them and change their tactics.
Why do you want Killers to be in the dark about things, even weak perks, but Survivors can have all the info? Because that's what it sounds like you're asking for here.
In fact, I think more perks that don't have tells should probably have tells unless they're meant to be secret from the other side. Killers can tell when you Finesse with an animation, Survivors get an audio cue for All-Shaking Thunder, and both sides get information about buffs and debuffs. Because that's fair.
There is literally no valid reason to say Killers should not have information about stuff like this same as Survivors.
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The effect is already there though.
Ruin, for example, is already in play when the game starts. You don't get the debuff icon until you interact with the gen.
Pentimento can be active for quite a while, and you won't get the debuff icon until you interact with a gen, heal, etc. It doesn't notify you when the totem is rekindled.
Invocations show the debuff icon as soon as the invocation finishes. If it were consistent, you'd only see the debuff when interacting with the perk effect, so when a gen completes, you kick it, it when you disturb a crow.
That's the inconsistency.
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Question! Can you clarify something? I'm not understanding if you mean the perk is inconsistent because it does not show a debuff icon while the Invocation is being performed (which… why?), or if you mean that the Invocation icon is not a real debuff, or something else? I'm not following.
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Nah, those are so lame excuses
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The fact that they have notifications isn't what holds them back. It's the fact that the reward is not really worth the cost of 1 minute + broken for the entire match in the case of both Weaving Spiders and especially Treacherous Crows.
Them having a notification is fine because you can't really do anything about their effects, you can't regress the progression given by Weaving Spiders and Treacherous Crows is completely passive aura reveal anyway.
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Sure, so there might be a miscommunication, I'll try to clarify.
Something like residual manifest, for example, affects the killer with a blindness debuff. So that impacts the player directly because they can't see auras, as an example. Something similar happens with dissolution, where the player in the TR is debuffed so that the next pallet they vault breaks.
Those are player debuffs and effects.
Match effects are mostly global and effect the environment. The biggest example is hexes, which affect the whole map. Invocations are also global once they are finished.
So in this case, when an invocation completes, the killer gets the debuff icon right away. They are alerted that the match has been changed, and exactly which effect is now in play.
Alternately, hexes don't do this. The effects of ruin are present from the moment the match starts, but you aren't notified until you see the perk trigger first hand. Pentimento is probably a better example of this. The killer has to "cast" the perk when they rekindle the totem, but survivors didn't get a debuff notification until they touch a gen, or heal, out otherwise see the effect of the perk first hand.
So it's a bit strange that the invocation works immediately. Either it should work like pentimento, and the killer gets the debuff notification when the perk actually is seen (so a gen completes early, or a crow is triggered), which is consistent with hexes.
Or, survivors get the debuff for pentimento the instant the totem is lit. That would be more consistent with how invocations work.
I get that hexes are intended to be surprise mechanics, so I'm more inclined to say the first one (notified on the perk triggering). But it's odd that invocations are already bad, and the killer gets not only an audible trigger that it finished, and the HUD indicator for the broken survivor who finished it (as well as knowing where they are), but also they know exactly which perk it is immediately.
Invocations are already bad, and this doesn't really change anything, but I find it interesting that these debuffs notify so differently.
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It's not like the killer can do anything to turn the invocations off, so I don't see what the big deal is. This is just complaining for the sake of complaining.
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You laugh, but I bet this is not far from the truth.. we're talkin' millimeters.
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This indicator tells "hey, there are survivor(s) in basement for next several seconds", so if killer is nearby, they can go straight to the basement.
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The laughing doesn’t mean I disagree, but I find it hilarious that someone wrote something like that.
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Maybe so even a killer that is deaf can know.
It wasn't really subtle either way, since it has a loud audio que and you also see who exactly is broken.
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For the same reason Dissolution has it, I guess.
I suppose it's a way to let the killer know not to startle crows
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Oh I see your point now! Thank you. :)
While I think the Invocation showing up as a debuff for Killer is fine as is, I think you're also right - it's kinda unfair that the Killer doesn't get to know the perk is in play until the perk is finished, not when the perk first activates, but that seems to be why the audio cue is there.
I actually think the penti debuff being instant makes more sense, though to be fair I don't believe Invocations are meant to work anything lie hexes. After all if the notification for Penti went off immediately the Survivors would just ignore gens and go cleanse, meaning no value. And if we did it for Invocations where the Killer learns about it when the first crow triggers or gen pops, we'd need to make it so they have a chance to undo the Invocation like a hex.In retrospect, because both Invocations and Boons/Hexes are fine, I think the way they are now isn't odd at all. Invocations are permanent, the Killer NEEDS an instant ongoing alert saying the effect is there. Survivors don't need to instantly know a hex is spawned and they're debuffed, otherwise they prioritize the hex (nerfing hexes even more) and the Killer gets no chance to have any benefit from their perk - same for boons, the Killer gets an audio cue but not an instant notification of where the Boon is. They have to find it.
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Respectfully Blossom, not every Killer can capitalize on that knowledge equally. If I'm Dredge or Nurse or Sadako or Dracula, maybe I can catch them in the basement doing this, but if I'm Ghostface or Legion or Pinhead or someone else who is M1 or with limited mobility options? Absolutely not. Not unless I am as you say, right near the basement, by which time they will have left and I will have wasted my time, time I could be using pressuring other Survivors or gens near completion, contesting a hook, in a chase, or doing something else. Truth is, the basement is a very big time sink for both sides, so if you're in there it has to be for very good reason. It thus makes more sense, since the Killer cannot always check the basement, that they know that an Invocation is in play. Just like with hex debuffs or perks like Dissolution.
For a lot of M1s, just checking to see if an invocation is there being done has to be done preemptively or the Killer has to be lucky and catch it - because there is no indication for the Killer of "hey, someone may have gone into the basement to Invoke" the way Survivors have on their HUD. The Killer genuinely doesn't know unless they have Territorial Imperative, check the basement manually, hear the sound of someone Invoking in the basement, see someone go down there, or hear the sound of the Invocation completing and see that someone is permanently broken.
By the time someone is permanently broken, they should be well out of the basement, because most Killers aren't mobile enough to be everywhere at once and capitalize on that free down. So yes, you CAN go straight there IF you suspect an invocation, but they are rare enough niche perks nobody checks because the basement is a time sink. Going there on a standard patrol as Killer is like if a Survivor decided to go around cleansing every dull totem because there may be Pentimento - a preemptive play that sometimes is the right choice but most of the time is just a waste of time you could be spending on your goal.
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Invocations also have a sound effect and the HUD shows the survivor become Broken, which would also be tip-offs if this indicator didn't exist. And the killer dropping whatever they're doing to sprint to the basement to maybe find a survivor there is usually a bad idea. Doing an Invocation with the killer near you is, itself, also bad idea.
This is a nothing problem.
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Well, survivors get notified by negative status effects and long term aura readings. So seems fair to me.
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Oh I agree.
I think it came across wrong how I wrote it, but I don't think is unbalanced or needs changing in any way. I didn't actually state that.
I just think it's an interesting design choice, since it's clearly intentional. And TBH someone else mentioned that hard of hearing killers won't hear the notification, in which case that could explain the difference as well. I'm all for reasonable accessibility.
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I don't want to make any judgement calls about anyone here but I think a lot of Survivors asking for odd changes to things are doing it out of anger, because a lot of their things have changed and they are incorrectly blaming EVERY Killer for bad behavior. There's a lot of rage at Killers for a handful of them being really nasty in Chaos Shuffle right now, but in my experience with that mode I have simply 100% not seen the types of issues they have had, and think the worst of it actually only happened about the first three days of the event when people wanted to finish the tome and then go back to the regular mode. I have been winning as Survivor more in Chaos Shuffle than I have in the regular mode, too.
Actually just last night me and some friends were SWFing in Chaos Shuffle, and we had great games. At 11 PM during the Real Sweat Hours. We had a new friend who just started playing with us and things were fine. Then we switched over to the main mode because we got bored, what was our first Killer over there?
A Wraith on Midwich slugging us all at four gens with Knockout.
Our second was a tunnelling four gen slowdown Clown.
Yeah we did two rounds, then went back to Chaos Shuffle.
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That wasnt even the case with how they were originally designed. It was and still is a negative time investment. For the crow perk counter point is survivors dont get to know when killer sees their aura
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But if we are following that logic it should be revealed when they are effected by it not when the invocation is completed. Weaving spiders would have be the first time they interact with the gen and Treacherous crows would be the first time their aura is revealed
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Doing an invocation at all under any circumstance is a bad idea.
A health state is more valuable, 60-90 seconds spent elsewhere is more valuable, the ability to heal is more valuable, and there are just so many other perks that do the jobs of both invocations better with fewer if any drawbacks.
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bhvr trend with perks over the past couple of years has been to make them tell the otherside it is in play.
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I mean, Weaving Spiders is a strong enough effect to have this. In theory, this would be justified for Treacherous Crows if it was as good as it should be, but it's not, and that perk needs a significant buff.
I actually think there should be a dedicated status effect for invocations similar to the Cursed/Blessed statuses for hexes and boons
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