Camping and Tunneling In Event Queues

Nobody cares about made up stats and they sure don't reflect the actual game or the actual issues with the game. Everyone in soloQ is Dcing or going next and Killers are all slugging/camping/tunneling as maps/perks/loops get nerfed.

Killer tunnel because it's kept in the game as a way to deal with SWF which ruins the game for everyone else. Also to add, if SWF and SoloQ were in separate queues, do you think SWF would ever get a match? If not, why?

I play more killer than survivor these days and have always played a decent amount of both roles. From that vantage point, I see no good reason why some killers want to hard tunnel and camp in the early game.

The only reason of any kind I can see for that behavior is that people doing those things are afraid they won't 'win' as often if they don't tunnel and camp someone out as fast as possible. The reason anyone has such a fear probably varies per person. It's also likely that some players want to make their opponents have a bad time, but hopefully that's a minority of cases.

I don't think swfs are a huge problem. Sometimes I'll see a group that shows signs of being a swf (lobby fills all at once, coordinated names and outfits, etc.), see a couple flashlights, a toolbox, a firecracker, and then decide whether I feel like that kind of match. I do agree that swfs are more likely to make annoying matches, but I'd say my win-rate against teams that appear to be bully squad swfs is better than my average win-rate. A good swf that pushes gens and are all good in chase with good game sense will give me challenges, but those are matches that challenge me to get better :)

Ultimately, I don't think swfs are a reason to tunnel/camp.

Claiming you don't see why Killers would do it so early in the game means you shouldn't be in this discussion until you play some more Killer and figure it out.

They do it because they are titled from the past matches against SWF's and then take it out on SoloQ or they do their best to start off games like that so that they easily can control the entire game. Killers rack up so many points doing it while Survs don't, but it's not even about the bloodpoints at the end, it's about salty players trying to ruin the game for others. I have many matches in SoloQ where the Killer has an entire slug build and just bleeds us out for 4 minutes at 5 gens, it's not hard to understand what would lead Killers to do that.

SWF are the entire reason that Killers slug/tunnel/camp and then carry that playstyle over to SoloQ, which has been leading to mass DCing and "going next", it's literally a fact. Event queue even proves that because it's not like Survs are stacking meta perks in chaos queue or getting 2nd chance or gen perks that often yet Killers are still doing it.

Killer do it because it's easy and stays in the game as a way to combat SWF which then trickles down to SoloQ and makes SoloQ unplayable. Ongoing issue for years now that's been getting worse and worse.

Again, IDC about winrates that BHVR releases with their skewed stats, I look at the actual game and what's going on and what actual players are saying about their experiences. Most people don't want to talk about the real issue this game has, though I see more and more people talking about it here and on other forums, though they still mostly get silenced by opposition.

If SWF was nerfed, Killers could be rebalanced and the game would be better for all. I have not read a single counter argument to that other than someone crying about the game wouldn't be fun for their SWF group if they weren't allowed to bully the Killer.

Here are some things you just said:

"Claiming you don't see why Killers would do it so early in the game means you shouldn't be in this discussion until you play some more Killer and figure it out."

"it's literally a fact."

"Again, IDC about winrates that BHVR releases with their skewed stats, I look at the actual game and what's going on and what actual players are saying about their experiences."

Those statements indicate a willingness to ignore other players' experiences and opinions as well as actual statistics, while asserting that your statements are the only factual ones.

You told me to go play more killer in spite of the fact that I clearly stated that I play a lot of killer. You also have expressed that you don't care about the actual statistics, and outright ignored my experiences while stating that you pay attention to people's stated experiences. Please do not ignore what people say while telling them they don't belong in discussions.

As you rightly indicated, people's experiences are critical, not just the numbers. But if I'm mad about a bully squad I just 4ked, that's not an excuse for me to go tunnel someone and then bully some people that had nothing to do with a frustrating match. It's a problem that this can be done at all.

I wrote more than that, but I removed anything else I wrote here because I think that it needs to be emphasized that ignoring discussions made in good faith and telling the people taking the time to interact with others that they don't even belong in the discussion is not productive.

At a certain point, we have to accept that people like to play video games with their friends … and are going to want to play video games with their friends. You acknowledge in your post that SoloQ players are unhappy with the game and killers use playstyles that are frowned-upon by the community. I don't understand why that is specifically an argument for why SWF should be nerfed, but I am willing to hear you out. The only difference in a SWF is they have the ability to communicate with each other. How would you nerf that? If I was a BHVR developer, I would read your post and think "Okay, they've identified a problem, but what is the solution?"

You brought up a valid concern, which is that you've experienced enough matches to notice a pattern of malicious behavior.

I am really trying to hear out your argument here, but there is something about arguing "Players that communicate are the #1 reason that Killers slug, tunnel, and camp" that does not sit right with me. What if killers do that … because they had a bad day in real life? Or because they are upset at the current state of the game? Or because they feel BHVR is not making changes fast enough? There's so much at play when it comes to how people think and behave. To say that every mean killer with an attitude problem acts that way specifically because they think SWF needs to be nerfed feels misguided.

Event queue even proves that because it's not like Survs are stacking meta perks in chaos queue or getting 2nd chance or gen perks that often yet Killers are still doing it.

Yes, and the shortest Event Tomb to get to the finish for this Event Queue requires Survivors to escape a trial. Survivors are going to attempt that challenge instead of the others because it's the shortest path to really cool rewards. Survivors are going to bring their strongest add-ons and map offerings to finish their challenge. Killers observe this behavior from the survivors in their matches, and respond by bringing their strongest add-ons into the next game. A cycle has just been created that cascades throughout the player base as participants form opinions and continue to play matches. If that same behavior was mimicked in the normal queue, then you might have grounds for an argument—but you specifically identified Event queue as the only queue with the problem here.

Most people don't want to talk about the real issue this game has, though I see more and more people talking about it here and on other forums, though they still mostly get silenced by opposition.

Everyone's behavior on the official forums are generally much nicer than the dark stinky sewers of Reddit. I also think people are talking about real issues the game has on here. The real issue you've discussed is "The Killer role does not feel lethal or effective when my opponents are allowed to communicate with each other." but doesn't consider the game is intentionally designed to be lost by Killers at least 30-40% of the time. To me, it really seems that some players have an issue with losing in general, in a game that is designed for them to lose sometimes—and somehow a completely separate game mechanic is pointed as the problem instead. It does not matter that survivors communicated with each other—if you won every game your playstyle should be reasonably nerfed.

Regardless of your skill expression on a killer, if the developers want to keep a killer at a certain winrate — that means you will lose.

It's reasonable to apply the Principle of Parsimony (Occam's Razor) to Dead by Daylight. He is entitled to his opinion.

From that vantage point, I see no good reason why some killers want to hard tunnel and camp in the early game.

Smurf, I respect your opinion — but player behavior is influenced by more than just "I want to win this match."

• Is this the player's first match of the day? If they played previously, how did those matches go?
• Did a Survivors attempt to provoke the killer?
• Is there a tomb challenge guiding their behavior a certain way?
  • I have intentionally slugged survivors at 5 generators because it was necessary to finish my tomb challenge.

The people who are tunneling and camping "because of SWFs" somehow magically find a new reason to tunnel and camp every month. They are only pointing the finger at SWF because certain content creators made it socially acceptable to behave that way. It is important we keep these players accountable by addressing the root problems causing their issues instead of nerfing the newest scapegoat on the block. If Event Queue is bad, we should begin by looking at what challenges each side was tasked to complete.

Unnecessarily rude. People need space to learn and grow.

Not much better to acknowledge and respond to it. You will never change someone's mind when they are defensive.

The biggest double standard in this game is that it's considered "sweaty" for killers to camp and tunnel, but it's not considered "sweaty" for survivors to use voice comms specifically for extra game advantages.

There are no buffs that are going to get SoloQ even close to SWF so that it actually matters. There is so so much that SWF on comms get. They give info about the Killer, where they are on the map, where that Hex totem is that they just ran by, what perks the Killer has by what they've seen in chase or on the map, what gens need to be done, are getting worked on and where gens are, what pallets are still up, what loops have spawned onto the map, what windows are closed or open.

There is so much that goes into it that all of you overlook or act as if it's "not a big deal" which is why the game gets balanced based off of SWF and as we can all see, it's been ruining SoloQ and creating toxic Killers who just want to ruin the games of Survs. Toxic gameplay all around and I literally cannot logically think of a reason that anyone would be advocating for anything other than direct SWF nerfs that isn't based in selfishness.

Like SWF nerfs would "punish" SWF yet everyone else, the majority of players in this game, are punished because of how broken SWF is rn and that is somehow okay. It's selfish.

I disagree with you, but I also think you are making very good points that need to be heard.

-Increase their gen times

I'm trying to do the mental gymnastics here because I do not develop the game for a living. To implement this idea, they would need to track whether you are in a SWF or not based on something., Then they would need to fundamentally change trial rules based on this. The only way I see this implemented, in the current form, is if they split the queue and make SWF a separate game mode. That is a lot of effort and time investment—and I don't see BHVR change control approving this if they made a business case for it.

-Can't stack same perks

I genuinely agree with you on this. Anyone who has really played this game cannot forget at one point in time, the biggest problem we had was every survivor literally ran the same build. Back then, you had to play Borrowed Time or you were the worst teammate on the planet. Everyone played it, and so on. If DBD ever gets a competitive mode, I 100% think the perks should be in a community chest and either limited by perk rarity (yellow-limited, green-semi limited, purple-unlimited) or 1 copy per survivor.

-Can't bring in tools and have to use chests in the match to get tools or limiting what level of tools then bring into the match, like maybe just brown with no add-ons so that Killers can't determine who's SWF and who's not.

I need more time to sit and process your idea here. I think you might be onto something, but limiting player choice always looks bad on paper. Just because it looks bad does not mean that it is in practice. I'm trying to remember 2v8 where you could not bring items in with you—and how intentional/impactful of a decision it felt. A lot more chests were opened and used. Very happy matches.

So it's literally only logical that a targeted mechanic change for SWF is needed to compensate for their comms and the plethora of information and perks that they receive just by being on comms, whether each SWF plays with comms or not is irrelevant.

I have a different perspective, but I still think you have made a valid argument here. If I am in a SWF, I would not need to run Empathy because I should be getting this information for free. This allows me to select a stronger perk and use the slot more effectively. Where we disagree is how we process that advantage. From your perspective, you believe that SWF should be nerfed so it is equal to SoloQ. In order to make your solution come to life, the rules of the game would have to be fundamentally changed to balance it. To me, this is just not realistic. I am trying to imagine myself as a BHVR employee and how I would ever get this business case approved. Even if every content creator agreed with you and yelled it from the top of the mountain, it just would not be applicable. Sitting between you and the solution you want to implement is a large mountain of "why?" "why?" "why?" that need to be addressed.

• "Why can't SoloQ be at an equivalent level to SWF? It would be cheaper to balance, and would resolve the same problem."
• "Why should we do this? What problem would this solution solve? How many people in the community have the problem?"
• "Why do the fundamental trial rules need to be changed to implement a solution and balance the game?"

SWF groups that don't thrive off bullying the Killer wouldn't be affected by any of this either, they'd still enjoy playing with their friends.

I'm not going to play armchair psychologist because that is not my place, but I do wonder how much of your opinion is influenced by SWF groups collaborating together to take agency away from the killer role. Is the real problem there is too much counterplay?

Killers wouldn't be so so so justly angry and then would only have to deal with their skill instead of unfair circumstances that SWF bring currently, that cause all the nasty gameplay SoloQ gets the brunt of.

I disagree with the way you arrived at this conclusion, but you have a very sound conclusion here. Killers should be in the power role, and it feels really crappy when that agency is taken away from the killer player. I just don't believe in my heart that players communicating with each other is the real issue. It seems that what the game lets players do with that information is the issue.

I have a different perspective. I personally believe Kindred should be basekit to help buff SoloQ to SWF. In a thread in the Feedback and Suggestions forum, two other players shared very strong negative opinions towards the killer aura reveal in basekit kindred. I want to give them a chance to explain their opinion before I form one, so I do not have a complete solution mapped out yet. But I am sure that there is a way to give information and agency to players in a way that allows them to perform similar to SWF groups.

… which is why the game gets balanced based off of SWF and as we can all see, it's been ruining SoloQ and creating toxic Killers who just want to ruin the games of Survs.

I'm trying to follow the pattern of thought here. In your scenario, a killer plays against a SWF, loses, gets upset, and wants to make the next group miserable. But how does the killer know they are playing against a SWF? I'm sure you recognize how dangerous the Salem Witch Trial level of thinking is. Sometimes when I play SoloQ, I like to copy other peoples' outfits. I've also been accused by killers of playing in a SWF because a random player saved me with a flashlight blind. I was sitting alone in my office, LOL. Unless the game has a way to identify and report that players are playing together, we can't just rely on gut instinct.

I literally cannot logically think of a reason that anyone would be advocating for anything other than direct SWF nerfs that isn't based in selfishness. Like SWF nerfs would "punish" SWF yet everyone else, the majority of players in this game, are punished because of how broken SWF is rn and that is somehow okay. It's selfish.

Sometimes I think it is important to parrot things back so you can get an opportunity to read what was written from another person. You believe that SWFs are broken because they have the ability to communicate with each other and get a gameplay advantage.

• I disagree, and I've laid out the reason I think this way above. I hope you at least consider what I have shared. The developers are real people, and they are just as strategic as the game they make. This is not an easy problem to solve, or it would have.

You believe that SWFs remove agency from the killer role, which causes significant frustration, and may feed into the epidemic.

• None of the solutions you discussed actually address this issue. What perks/items are causing these issues? We need to be specific when designing solutions. What about the SWFs removes agency from the killer/power role? I've played for thousands of hours, but I think any solution handed to the developers needs to be specific with intent out of respect for their time.

Anyone who posts on the forums cares enough about the game to make an account and share their opinion. It's important to Talk It Through and Think It Out. We are all on the same team. Just because we disagree does not mean we are enemies/should be rude. :)

Song Title: Talk It Through, Think It Out

https://youtu.be/b6LtjtCVMgo?si=wMfgYZeEZTgQzp0H

The game has a huge number of mechanics that make life easier for SoloQ survivors, but these mechanics are abused by SFW, please tell me have you ever played against SFW with the combination of skills dead hard + off the record + med kit + Styptic Agent / Anti-Haemorrhagic Syringe? Or hyperfocus + corrective action + tool box (it's just crazy they fix the generator in 30 seconds)? Or Camaraderie + Reassurance?

I played, and it's unbearable pain when SFW openly mock the killer.

It doesn't help that if you have no mither you're just done the killer will hard tunnel you out every time

You're missing the target. SWF is inherently OP, that's not even up for debate, that is a genuine fact. This game and all it's mechanics were built fundamentally on 4 Survs not having communication and super coordination as a baseline, that again is not up for debate, that is a fact.

We don't see SWF's differently, you just refuse to acknowledge it because you benefit from it, big difference there buddy. You've seen SWF stuff more often because the issue is getting ridiculous, there is no reason that every person who plays this game outside of a SWF (includes both SoloQ Survs and Killer) should suffer because SWF players want to retain their advantages.

Again, I don't care for BHVRs warped stats that don't even count DC's, I'm not interested and it's completely dishonest for people like you to keep peddling them and it's also hilarious how you guys keep using stats that are useless.

his suggestions for the game are terrible lol

How is killer miserable when it's the strongest it has ever been? With a target kill rate of 60%, that means 8 hook states per match on average. Soloq is the only thing that's suffering right now (to the degree where I'm surprised anyone actually plays this way). Arguably, if there was no SWF or communication between survivors, it would be extremely rare that all gens complete, and I'd guess the exit gates would be powered in only 10% of matches.

If SWF survivor teams got 250+ match escape streaks, then it would be applicable to ask for a nerf, but when many killers are running around with streaks in the hundreds and thousands on multiple killers, I don't think anyone believes for a single minute that SWF is the root cause of everything wrong with this game. Let's just be honest here.

If they had SWF in mind then the gap between SWF and SoloQ would not be so extreme for almost a decade and it wouldn't be one of the only PVP games, literally the only asymm game ever made, without voice comms lol That doesn't seem like a Dev team that had SWF in mind, that seems like a Dev team that backpeddled and needed to give SWF players some sort of god complex, which we can see on full display in this thread.

All good to play with your friends, but the game should be balanced for that, to suggest otherwise is dishonest.

They had a choice between putting KYF in at launch or SWF and I believe it was up to a community vote, they chose KYF. SWF was added shortly after.

It was always intended. They likely did not have the resources to accommodate a voice system at the very beginning of the games lifespan.

The game is already balanced around SWF's. Even in the best-case scenario, they are escaping just 48% of the time. Nerfing Survivors more is going to dumpster Solo Q, which seems to be where most players sit.

Punishing people for daring to commit the sin of playing with their friends is also pretty stupid.

I have played for awhile, and agree. Go back to the older rules. You lost a good chunk of BP for proximity camping or returning to hook. One would also lose BP for tunneling. Now with the new BP standard one doesn't really lose any bp for either of those tactics.

High MMR is the High MMR "Bracket" that is 1400 MMR and up. Which is not "high mmr"

answer is simple. The most effective kind of survivor gameplay is to split gens, and very often there are no gen regression perks and Corrupt to intervene in that, especially Corrupt which is supposed to reduce searching zone for 1st chase and make it more difficult to split gens.

On the other hand, the most effective way to win as killer is to hard tunnel 1st person asap because early 3v1 is what you need the most, if you even manage to get first hook fast.

Early splitting gens is literally survivor counterpart to tunneling, let's not try to make another post about "killers tunneling during events" pls, it's boring to read

I'm not sure that BHVR ever confirmed what number these stats were from specifically

If they are the top 5%, then they are the high mmr bracket. High mmr is always in relation to the best players, not some arbitrary number. If the high mmr threshold was set at 10 million, but nobody could get over 2 thousand, that would be a pretty horrible system, since no one could ever be considered "high" mmr.

If the top 5% includes the people 3 and 4 standard deviations to the right of average on the bell curve, as well as the top 3% of performers from 2 standard deviations to the right of average, that is high mmr.