Enough with the SWF toxicity.
This is so out of hand. Gen rushing, tea-bagging, body blocking, and they also get to communicate, which according to BHVR isn't in game for a reason, but nothing is done about 3rd party apps. It's unbalanced, no fun, and outright stupid.
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just find a different lobby if you can tell it’s a 4-man SWF. Let them wait for someone else who’s willing to put up with the unfair advantage of comms and coordination.
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This goes hand in hand with killers who run 4 slowdown downs & camp/tunnel at 5 gens like their family is being held hostage if they don't extend their artificial win streaks. Both end up making the game suck more because it in turn causes people to play even sweater and unfun. Swfs will never get toned down because killers already win the majority of matches swf or no swf. The devs pretty much encourage swfs/coordination and roothless killer gameplay. The idea of chill games is long gone.
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3rd party apps lol. You do realize you'd have to ban Steam as well for example?
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and cell phones
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SWF doesn't break the game, it makes it balanced. Solo queue teams will beat themselves. The killer barely needs to do anything sometimes.
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SWF wouldn't be complained about if SoloQ was more competent. Killers seem perfectly complacent with easy wins.
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It still would be, because there is no substitute for comms, and so long as there is any difference, people will make it into an injustice.
But playing in a SWF is an advantage; arguing otherwise is just cope from people who want to be believe that SWFs aren't greater than the sum of its parts. But most often they are.
But that's fine, whatever. SWF isn't going anywhere and there's no way to police third party apps even if BHVR were inclined to do so. And on the relatively rare occasion when I play against a really well oiled machine of a SWF and lose badly, I'm unbothered. We're talking about a like once or twice a week occurrence, and imbalance is the name of this game. It's what we signed up for.
But generally speaking I just wish some of these really good squads were just more humble because their comms are doing a lot of the heavy lifting for them. I would never suggest someone not play with friends and have a good time, just that they have some self-awareness.
And on the very few (like 2-3) total times in my six years in the game that I faced (got curbstomped by) a real comp-level SWF (one in particular where there a couple names I recognized from the comp scene), they didn't BM me.
Really good players, the best, act like they've been there before, as if it's business as usual.
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I do not agree. SWF when played compitantly breaks the game balance. Many perks are not designed with SWF in mind so when a SWF brings the exact same perks on everyone it can create a bad situation. Then you have concepts like old distortion where even 1 person in a well coordinated swf could break the game. Yes I know distortion was changed but the point still remains.
There is still a lot of very valid reasons to take issue with SWFs over even if solo queue was buffed.1 -
And take the game off of all the consoles
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brother wins 9 matches like nothing and then loose one against a "SWF" and comes here to rant about how unbalanced is the game.
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I don't know why more people haven't put it together that SWF existing the way it does without any nerfs is the main reason why solo queue is so bad. Back when the game was more survivor-sided people literally just wouldn't play killer and the queues were 10 - 15 minutes to play survivor easy. The devs had to start buffing killers and nerfing survivor to bring SWF and killer closer together or the game was straight up going to die. The best thing to do would have been to do targeted nerfs at SWF to equalize being able to stack perks and communication but everyone cried that was "punishing people for playing with their friends" so now solo queue just gets to eat it and be cannon fodder
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People do talk about it. There have even been videos made about this very subject. The big problem though is that if you start to even suggest nerfing SWF you get loads of people who will come out and just jump on you and make you out to be this horrible, evil villain. They will make non arguments like "So I have to be nerfed because I want to play with my friends" when literally the exact same argument can be made for everyone else. That flip argument being "So we have to suffer with impossible to balance game design and constant over buffing and over nerfing of perks because you want SWFs to remain unnerfed.
You are completly correect in saying that SWF is a real issue for the game, and it is somthing that really does need a lot more discussion. SWF can either be on a reasonable power level which is most SWFs if we are being honest (and I prefer to be honest), but then you also have some groups that exist on the extreme end of skill or even higher end of skill which may comprise lets say 10-20% of SWFs (thats just a guess, dont get mad), where they are able to stack all the same perks, and completly break the game, walking away with 90% or better win rates. Top SWFs are just about impossible for killer to win against and that is a real problem.
You can not balance a game where you have solo Q at an average skill leveel of lets say 20/100 and then high end SWF being 100/100. Its too big of a gap. The difference between the two is so vast that high end SWFs are essentially playing an entirely different game.
So yes, I absolutly agree with you and I think this is a super important and worthwhile discussion to have.
The big question is how do we come up with a solution to this that is both as clean as possible and also doesn't totally destroy the game for people playing in SWFs? It is a super difficult thing to come up with solutions for. Anything you do is going to lead to the SWF people being mad and complaining about being punished for playing with their friends (even if that argument is highly manipulative, and extremely flimsy, they are trying to play on the emotions of folks genuinly looking to improve the game balance for both sides).
Just like any other situation, you work towards finding a solution by first identifying what the real problems are, and then you can begin to brainstorm.4 -
SWF is ruining the game but also the only way to play the game. Killers have been overtuned, perks nerfed, maps nerfed and Surv in general has been nerfed into oblivion all in order to retain some sort of balance for Killers to compete against SWF, but it's ruined the game.
SWF need a hard nerf, not gen rushing or nerfing Survs across the board or nerfing Surv perks; SWF need a specific nerf.
-Their gen times need to be increased per SWF amount in party. They should have slower gen progression speeds.
-They shouldn't be able to repeat perks. So they all can't stack 2nd chance and other meta perks, they would have to bring in unique targeted builds.
-They shouldn't be able to bring in any tools. So they all don't go in with iri items and incentives them to interact with chests which will slow the game down a bit.
All of those changes would offset how quickly they get gens done from coordination and all the free perks they get just for being in a SWF. Those changes would not impact SoloQ playstyle. Then Killers/maps/perks will need to be rebalanced accordingly because most maps in this game suck now, as do most perks, and most Killers are overtuned to deal with SWF which completely destroy SoloQ.
Like I tried to play SoloQ event. Out of 8 matches, every single one had no gameplay because the Killer would just slug us all or tunnel us out immedaitly. The eight match, as I write this, the Killer DC'd because he was truly awful (kept whiffing all hits and badly was trying to slug us) and only had one hook by the time we had two gens left. Nerfing Survs in general will make SoloQ more unplayable and more miserable. Nerf SWF.
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Well said. There is a reason most games do not show you who is playing in a party of friends; it’s because the opposition would not want to go against them. If the option is available, a lot of players would choose to back out of the game before it starts- or quit mid-match when it’s obvious you’re getting stomped due to callouts.
Any nerf to Survivor or Buff to killer, merely inconveniences SWF’s in DBD’s case. So for killers, going against SWF’s barely moves the needle- while playing against solos is easy mode, which easily gets boring (for me at least). For solo que survivors, the game gets more and more difficult with every change. Perks that would help the solo Que experience get nerfed (sometimes immediately after PTB’s) because of fear they will get abused or would be too powerful with other coordinated perks in a SWF (looking at you, Reaasurance). No amount of nerfed survivor perks or buffed killer mechanics can hold a candle to a well oiled SWF. Comms trumps all. I do not understand why the minority of the player base is being catered to. SWF’s make this game miserable for Killers and solo que survivors.
My suggestion? Overhaul the “Kill with Friends” game mode and make it fully customizable in every option imaginable. Want old DS & Dead Hard back? Boom- done. Unbreakable basekit? Done. Mechanics that make camping and tunneling useless? You got it. Regulate the SWF’s to this game mode; let them find a 5th friend or create a post to get someone to play killer. Keep the main mode for Killers and Solo Survivors, then balance the game around those two demographics- which are the majority of the player base.
“BRINGING SOLO QUE CLOSER IN LINE TO SWF’S” is NOT the answer. Again, friends with comms trumps EVERYTHING. There is no amount of on screen UI information that will get solo’s close to SWF’s. Simply stating who is going to stay on gens, who is going for the save, what pallet to get downed on, what stealth killer is nearby waiting for the unhook, etc. etc. CAN NOT BE COMMUNICATED IN REAL TIME THROUGH A UI.
And as far as my favorite excuse goes: “SO I HAVE TO BE PUNISHED TO PLAY WITH MY FRIENDS??” Here’s my rebuttal: so game balancing, solo’s, and killers ALL have to suffer because SWF’s have real time, on the fly, verbal communication? This is why I recommend making KWF fully customizable and overhauled.
You know what’s funny (or sad depending on how you look at it)? I bet if all SWF’s were limited to Kill with Friends, NOT one of them would want to play as the killer. Not even if they were to take turns. Hell, most would probably not play at all and quit the game. You know why? Because they know when it’s their turn to play killer they are going to get stomped and/or be stressed the hell out. Either way, they won’t be having much fun at that point. That’s pretty telling and says it all…
Post edited by KerJuice on5 -
THIS
I do agree with the first point however I think some experienced killers mains are willing to face a swf team the important part is to know if they are swf or not,so you know what you are getting into and not just to get bully an entire match, I hate guessing if a team will have coms or not just tell me.if they do that's all.
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SWF is slowly killing this game and BHVR does absolutely nothing about it except they make the decision to bring solo queue as close as possible to SWF. It doesn't make sense whatsoever most solo queue players will never be in SWF levels. SWF keeps getting stronger and stronger.
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Yet another I want ez games and use swf excuse my post never gets old. Just how many more of these will there be, anyone know what number of delusional swf qq posts there is?
Post edited by buggybug on12 -
LOL my friend too early to make me laugh so hard xd ty.
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If you don't like SWF, then find a different game to play. No one is stopping you. We like it just how it is.
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it’s true SWF at its best will beat most non S/A tier killers.
But you’re simply not getting that in solo queue consistently. You get a god tier “comp” swf like once every 20-30 games roughly. People don’t wanna admit this but most swfs are not that good at the game. Most of the time it’s friends continuing to play badly with each other on comms.
Comms are not the decider. Skill is the decider.
It’s just more pronounced in a swf. If you have 3 bad players and a top 1% player on comms, they’re more than likely still going to lose because only one person has good game sense, looping skills, and map knowledge.
most swfs simply do not care about that stuff. They get on to vibe with friends. Coordination helps for sure but 4 bad players communicating are still bad. Comms doesn’t magically replace or create skill.
A good team of solos is better than a bad swf because they’re good at the game and the hud is enough info for them to make good decisions. You get a good solo squad about as often as you get a good swf.And that’s because of matchmaking. The frustration is misplaced at swfs when the real problem is matchmaking.
All of the yapping above aside, why is it a problem to lose to a swf? Are you supposed to win all of your games?
The greatest individuals and teams still lose occasionally so with this in mind, did you go back and look at what you could’ve done differently? Or where you played poorly? Because I promise you didn’t play mistake free either and probably have room for improvement somewhere.
if you can’t change swf, why focus on it? Only thing you can change is your gameplay so unless you have an ungodly amount of skill in the game (which the average person doesn’t) you should spend more time critiquing your gameplay versus trying to nerf the other role and that’s true for both killers and survivors.5 -
first, we need to differentiate genrushing from "genrushing".
Genrushing is when team dedicates their builds to completing gens asap and tries to be completely stealthy all match.
Your average match has nothing to do with it at all. Your average lost match quite likely consists of avoiding using Corrupt Intervention, having a bad first chase and later applying terrible map pressure. You are the one letting survivors be free to split pressure on gens highly effective.
Bodyblocking? What's toxic about that either? The fact that teammates are tanking hits for their other teammates to waste more of your time (which is literally 2nd main goal of survivors)?
P.S. It's a PvP game, ofc people will sweat.
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Teabagging I get but… taking hits for each other (intended mechanic, see: Forced Penance, Mettle of Man, etc) doing gens (intended mechanic, it's the survivor win condition) and talking on Discord?
Do… you want survivors in SWF to have to not speak to each other? That… sounds like a real surefire way to kill the game, ngl.
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First, proove to me that SWF equals communication. Second, proove to me that SWF "genrushes" more than the equivalent soloQ players. Third, proove to me that SWF teabag more than the equivalent soloQ players. The only thing here is that is an issue is that there are some people who use SWF to bodyblock other teammates, but this is a reportable offense and happens just in really rare occasions.
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My friends and I use pagers to coordinate. Ban phones, ban consoles, ban computers, and we'll still be OP because I can beep my friend when they need to save.
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I feel you’re my protege, the same way I was a protege of Sluzzy. You will lead them when my time here ends.
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Pagers!!!!!!!!!
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So sophisticated of y'all! We resorted to smoke signals. 🤣😂
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WTB my own swf. I wonder what it feels like in a real one.
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Ban 3rd party smoke/fog
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A lot of SWFs are beatable honestly I kinda feel like it comes down to the map a lot of the time there are some setups you can't beat quickly enough like on suffocation lot sometimes the middle of the map is mid other times it all connects perfectly and you wonder what you're supposed to do. Same with Chapel, the main building is always pretty good but sometimes the windows are in the dirtiest places and connect to tiles.
That's not really a SWF thing I guess but SWFs are usually more experienced players so if they see how good their setup is good luck keeping your chases under a minute.
I guess if I had to pinpoint the biggest SWF strength it's knowing what Hens are being worked on because I feel like as killer you kinda rely on survivors sandbagging each other accidentally as a form of gen slowdown these days and that won't happen in a SWF which makes them much more efficient.
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That's supposed to be gens, if they're working on Hens or with Hens you probably just lose regardless.
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While they're at it prolly should go ahead and ban those pesky vocal chords as well
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Nothing toxic about bodyblocking. It's a legitimate strategy. People always claim solo q would be better if people played more like a team instead of selfishly, and bodyblocking is playing like a team.
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And ban eyes, too. My friend and I play in the same room together, we glance at each other's screens constantly.
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we got killer mains saying that they bhvr should “remove Swf from regular games and be in customs”. Bhvr isn’t gonna ruin their game from a financial standpoint just so that yall get your winning streaks
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yeah no thanks
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In the same room? For shame. Let's have those ears as well.....
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On a serious note I love how lets say a survivor a solo q person complains about slugging and tunneling etch, killers claim you need to work as a team and your teamates are this and that. Yet swf which =does TEAMWORK that they tell solo q players to do , killers then whine lol.
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I will play Devil's Advocate and pretend that SWF is an evil abomination that must be stopped. What are we doing about it?
It's more efficient if we think about a problem, design practical, realistic solutions, and then discuss those solutions as a community.
We can't poop our SWF diapers and run around crying and screaming. We have to do the legwork for BHVR to take us seriously.
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SWF is excuse for bad killers to be honest. I wish it was shown in the endgame table who was solo or premade. I believe this would make a lot of people feel stupid when they found out it was solo que after all, not swf like they thought
I love playing against SWF because they are overly altruistic and I find enjoyment in not letting them bully me
Also, If SWFing wouldn't be a thing I would not play survivior at all. Probably a lot of people wouldn't either
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People who say SWF is not a problem and an excuse for a killer ccant have their head straight. How would it be playing WoW Arena without coms? Counterstrike without being able to call out bases? The amount of information you get from SWF is more than any perk in the game and arguably more than all perks combined.
I play ghostface as a main and when i face a sweaty SWF i got some super looper on me following me around the map and if i were to turn he will bring me to like the loop in coldwindfarm that you cannot win against while telling his teammates, its okay i got the killer on the other side of the map you can calmly do the gens over there.
And then oh, The killer decided to leave me at this god tier loop he is coming towards shack now so it would be a good idea if you leave unles you are almost done , you got plenty of time he is mid map atm, going in right side btw so be ready with the pallet if he is indeed going there. Ill be following him around so he cannot go stealth for minute of this game no problemos.0 -
The difference is that in CS and other games communication is built into the game and is not limited in any way, in dbd communication is specifically disabled, playing dbd in swf is the same as playing among us where the dead player just says who killed him
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If map balance wasn't atrocious swf wouldn't be half as bad as it is, that is where they need to focus their attention.
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I meant they use Discord or something like that to talk and openly coordinate. Each and every time I run into this I get smoked. Gen-rushed, trolled, you name it. They know and tell the others where I am 100% of the time, and it's nearly unbeatable, and 100% garbage. As I said before, BHVR didn't put voice chat into the game, and this loop hole should not be allowed either.
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Except that body blocking is reportable, as in against BHVR rulesets.
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I agree that tea-bagging could be considered toxic, I don't like being humped on the ground repeatedly either.
However, the other scenarios aren't toxic to me.
If people body block, hit the person body blocking and believe me, the person blocking will either leave (I'm talking fully healed), an easy down if they continue body blocking, or a recently hooked survivor body blocking from endurance (again an easy down).
Gen rushing isn't toxic, just like being tunneled isn't toxic to me. It's the killer equivalent of tunneling and both are prevalent and strategies that both (killers and survivors) deploy to make the game easier.
Sure, comms are strong and I won't refute that point but the other scenarios are not toxic by any stretch of the imagination. I don't get overly heated when getting tunneled, I just accept that it is what it is and move onto another game. If you find yourself being gen rushed, throw on gen regression - even Corrupt Intervention if necessary.
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Body blocking is reportable if you're keeping someone trapped. A killer is not a person who can be trapped as they can hit the survivor, down them, and hook them/slug them.
Body blocking is a strategy people use when they're recently unhooked (an easier tunnel target) or when they're trying to prevent the survivor from being tunneled out. Holding a person hostage, like in a corner (something a killer can do) is holding the game hostage.
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Which has already led to maps getting overnerfed to become small nothing maps filled with dead area's and very little actual loops, especially loops that are intersting. SWF is atrocious because of comms and the coordination that SWF bring, even if they aren't that coordinated, there is a ton of information that SWF instantly get that the game wasn't designed around. SWF need to be nerfed and the game needs to be balanced around newly nerfed SWF.
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Balance?.. Survivors talk?.. yes.. in discord.. on the mic.. but its not much different than Killers being given the survivors names prior to the match starting so they can use a third and fourth party to snipe streamers…
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Didn’t the stats show that high MMR swf has maybe a few percentage points higher winrate than solo and thus isn’t an issue?
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