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Enough with the SWF toxicity.

This is so out of hand. Gen rushing, tea-bagging, body blocking, and they also get to communicate, which according to BHVR isn't in game for a reason, but nothing is done about 3rd party apps. It's unbalanced, no fun, and outright stupid.

Comments

  • I_Cant_Loop
    I_Cant_Loop Member Posts: 811

    just find a different lobby if you can tell it’s a 4-man SWF. Let them wait for someone else who’s willing to put up with the unfair advantage of comms and coordination.

  • Nomade
    Nomade Member Posts: 59

    I do not agree. SWF when played compitantly breaks the game balance. Many perks are not designed with SWF in mind so when a SWF brings the exact same perks on everyone it can create a bad situation. Then you have concepts like old distortion where even 1 person in a well coordinated swf could break the game. Yes I know distortion was changed but the point still remains.

    There is still a lot of very valid reasons to take issue with SWFs over even if solo queue was buffed.

  • Nomade
    Nomade Member Posts: 59

    People do talk about it. There have even been videos made about this very subject. The big problem though is that if you start to even suggest nerfing SWF you get loads of people who will come out and just jump on you and make you out to be this horrible, evil villain. They will make non arguments like "So I have to be nerfed because I want to play with my friends" when literally the exact same argument can be made for everyone else. That flip argument being "So we have to suffer with impossible to balance game design and constant over buffing and over nerfing of perks because you want SWFs to remain unnerfed.

    You are completly correect in saying that SWF is a real issue for the game, and it is somthing that really does need a lot more discussion. SWF can either be on a reasonable power level which is most SWFs if we are being honest (and I prefer to be honest), but then you also have some groups that exist on the extreme end of skill or even higher end of skill which may comprise lets say 10-20% of SWFs (thats just a guess, dont get mad), where they are able to stack all the same perks, and completly break the game, walking away with 90% or better win rates. Top SWFs are just about impossible for killer to win against and that is a real problem.

    You can not balance a game where you have solo Q at an average skill leveel of lets say 20/100 and then high end SWF being 100/100. Its too big of a gap. The difference between the two is so vast that high end SWFs are essentially playing an entirely different game.

    So yes, I absolutly agree with you and I think this is a super important and worthwhile discussion to have.

    The big question is how do we come up with a solution to this that is both as clean as possible and also doesn't totally destroy the game for people playing in SWFs? It is a super difficult thing to come up with solutions for. Anything you do is going to lead to the SWF people being mad and complaining about being punished for playing with their friends (even if that argument is highly manipulative, and extremely flimsy, they are trying to play on the emotions of folks genuinly looking to improve the game balance for both sides).

    Just like any other situation, you work towards finding a solution by first identifying what the real problems are, and then you can begin to brainstorm.

  • Roco45
    Roco45 Member Posts: 61

    SWF is ruining the game but also the only way to play the game. Killers have been overtuned, perks nerfed, maps nerfed and Surv in general has been nerfed into oblivion all in order to retain some sort of balance for Killers to compete against SWF, but it's ruined the game.

    SWF need a hard nerf, not gen rushing or nerfing Survs across the board or nerfing Surv perks; SWF need a specific nerf.

    -Their gen times need to be increased per SWF amount in party. They should have slower gen progression speeds.

    -They shouldn't be able to repeat perks. So they all can't stack 2nd chance and other meta perks, they would have to bring in unique targeted builds.

    -They shouldn't be able to bring in any tools. So they all don't go in with iri items and incentives them to interact with chests which will slow the game down a bit.

    All of those changes would offset how quickly they get gens done from coordination and all the free perks they get just for being in a SWF. Those changes would not impact SoloQ playstyle. Then Killers/maps/perks will need to be rebalanced accordingly because most maps in this game suck now, as do most perks, and most Killers are overtuned to deal with SWF which completely destroy SoloQ.

    Like I tried to play SoloQ event. Out of 8 matches, every single one had no gameplay because the Killer would just slug us all or tunnel us out immedaitly. The eight match, as I write this, the Killer DC'd because he was truly awful (kept whiffing all hits and badly was trying to slug us) and only had one hook by the time we had two gens left. Nerfing Survs in general will make SoloQ more unplayable and more miserable. Nerf SWF.

  • KerJuice
    KerJuice Member Posts: 1,961
    edited January 25

    Well said. There is a reason most games do not show you who is playing in a party of friends; it’s because the opposition would not want to go against them. If the option is available, a lot of players would choose to back out of the game before it starts- or quit mid-match when it’s obvious you’re getting stomped due to callouts.

    Any nerf to Survivor or Buff to killer, merely inconveniences SWF’s in DBD’s case. So for killers, going against SWF’s barely moves the needle- while playing against solos is easy mode, which easily gets boring (for me at least). For solo que survivors, the game gets more and more difficult with every change. Perks that would help the solo Que experience get nerfed (sometimes immediately after PTB’s) because of fear they will get abused or would be too powerful with other coordinated perks in a SWF (looking at you, Reaasurance). No amount of nerfed survivor perks or buffed killer mechanics can hold a candle to a well oiled SWF. Comms trumps all. I do not understand why the minority of the player base is being catered to. SWF’s make this game miserable for Killers and solo que survivors.

    My suggestion? Overhaul the “Kill with Friends” game mode and make it fully customizable in every option imaginable. Want old DS & Dead Hard back? Boom- done. Unbreakable basekit? Done. Mechanics that make camping and tunneling useless? You got it. Regulate the SWF’s to this game mode; let them find a 5th friend or create a post to get someone to play killer. Keep the main mode for Killers and Solo Survivors, then balance the game around those two demographics- which are the majority of the player base.

    “BRINGING SOLO QUE CLOSER IN LINE TO SWF’S” is NOT the answer. Again, friends with comms trumps EVERYTHING. There is no amount of on screen UI information that will get solo’s close to SWF’s. Simply stating who is going to stay on gens, who is going for the save, what pallet to get downed on, what stealth killer is nearby waiting for the unhook, etc. etc. CAN NOT BE COMMUNICATED IN REAL TIME THROUGH A UI.

    And as far as my favorite excuse goes: “SO I HAVE TO BE PUNISHED TO PLAY WITH MY FRIENDS??” Here’s my rebuttal: so game balancing, solo’s, and killers ALL have to suffer because SWF’s have real time, on the fly, verbal communication? This is why I recommend making KWF fully customizable and overhauled.

    You know what’s funny (or sad depending on how you look at it)? I bet if all SWF’s were limited to Kill with Friends, NOT one of them would want to play as the killer. Not even if they were to take turns. Hell, most would probably not play at all and quit the game. You know why? Because they know when it’s their turn to play killer they are going to get stomped and/or be stressed the hell out. Either way, they won’t be having much fun at that point. That’s pretty telling and says it all…

    Post edited by KerJuice on
  • Nicogriale21
    Nicogriale21 Member Posts: 3

    THIS

    I do agree with the first point however I think some experienced killers mains are willing to face a swf team the important part is to know if they are swf or not,so you know what you are getting into and not just to get bully an entire match, I hate guessing if a team will have coms or not just tell me.if they do that's all.

  • MooGoesTheTree
    MooGoesTheTree Member Posts: 3

    SWF is slowly killing this game and BHVR does absolutely nothing about it except they make the decision to bring solo queue as close as possible to SWF. It doesn't make sense whatsoever most solo queue players will never be in SWF levels. SWF keeps getting stronger and stronger.

  • buggybug
    buggybug Member Posts: 638
  • tricks5776
    tricks5776 Member Posts: 67

    it’s true SWF at its best will beat most non S/A tier killers.

    But you’re simply not getting that in solo queue consistently. You get a god tier “comp” swf like once every 20-30 games roughly. People don’t wanna admit this but most swfs are not that good at the game. Most of the time it’s friends continuing to play badly with each other on comms.

    Comms are not the decider. Skill is the decider.

    It’s just more pronounced in a swf. If you have 3 bad players and a top 1% player on comms, they’re more than likely still going to lose because only one person has good game sense, looping skills, and map knowledge.

    most swfs simply do not care about that stuff. They get on to vibe with friends. Coordination helps for sure but 4 bad players communicating are still bad. Comms doesn’t magically replace or create skill.

    A good team of solos is better than a bad swf because they’re good at the game and the hud is enough info for them to make good decisions. You get a good solo squad about as often as you get a good swf.

    And that’s because of matchmaking. The frustration is misplaced at swfs when the real problem is matchmaking.

    All of the yapping above aside, why is it a problem to lose to a swf? Are you supposed to win all of your games?

    The greatest individuals and teams still lose occasionally so with this in mind, did you go back and look at what you could’ve done differently? Or where you played poorly? Because I promise you didn’t play mistake free either and probably have room for improvement somewhere.

    if you can’t change swf, why focus on it? Only thing you can change is your gameplay so unless you have an ungodly amount of skill in the game (which the average person doesn’t) you should spend more time critiquing your gameplay versus trying to nerf the other role and that’s true for both killers and survivors.

  • NarkoTri1er
    NarkoTri1er Member Posts: 742

    first, we need to differentiate genrushing from "genrushing".

    Genrushing is when team dedicates their builds to completing gens asap and tries to be completely stealthy all match.

    Your average match has nothing to do with it at all. Your average lost match quite likely consists of avoiding using Corrupt Intervention, having a bad first chase and later applying terrible map pressure. You are the one letting survivors be free to split pressure on gens highly effective.

    Bodyblocking? What's toxic about that either? The fact that teammates are tanking hits for their other teammates to waste more of your time (which is literally 2nd main goal of survivors)?

    P.S. It's a PvP game, ofc people will sweat.

  • kit_mason
    kit_mason Member Posts: 356

    Teabagging I get but… taking hits for each other (intended mechanic, see: Forced Penance, Mettle of Man, etc) doing gens (intended mechanic, it's the survivor win condition) and talking on Discord?

    Do… you want survivors in SWF to have to not speak to each other? That… sounds like a real surefire way to kill the game, ngl.

  • DeBecker
    DeBecker Member Posts: 386

    First, proove to me that SWF equals communication. Second, proove to me that SWF "genrushes" more than the equivalent soloQ players. Third, proove to me that SWF teabag more than the equivalent soloQ players. The only thing here is that is an issue is that there are some people who use SWF to bodyblock other teammates, but this is a reportable offense and happens just in really rare occasions.

  • Ayodam
    Ayodam Member Posts: 3,281

    I feel you’re my protege, the same way I was a protege of Sluzzy. You will lead them when my time here ends.

  • JPLongstreet
    JPLongstreet Member Posts: 6,168

    So sophisticated of y'all! We resorted to smoke signals. 🤣😂

  • Spare_Them_Mori_Me
    Spare_Them_Mori_Me Member Posts: 1,874

    WTB my own swf. I wonder what it feels like in a real one.

  • Yggleif
    Yggleif Member Posts: 310

    A lot of SWFs are beatable honestly I kinda feel like it comes down to the map a lot of the time there are some setups you can't beat quickly enough like on suffocation lot sometimes the middle of the map is mid other times it all connects perfectly and you wonder what you're supposed to do. Same with Chapel, the main building is always pretty good but sometimes the windows are in the dirtiest places and connect to tiles.

    That's not really a SWF thing I guess but SWFs are usually more experienced players so if they see how good their setup is good luck keeping your chases under a minute.

    I guess if I had to pinpoint the biggest SWF strength it's knowing what Hens are being worked on because I feel like as killer you kinda rely on survivors sandbagging each other accidentally as a form of gen slowdown these days and that won't happen in a SWF which makes them much more efficient.

  • Yggleif
    Yggleif Member Posts: 310

    That's supposed to be gens, if they're working on Hens or with Hens you probably just lose regardless.

  • JPLongstreet
    JPLongstreet Member Posts: 6,168

    While they're at it prolly should go ahead and ban those pesky vocal chords as well

  • Nazzzak
    Nazzzak Member Posts: 5,976

    Nothing toxic about bodyblocking. It's a legitimate strategy. People always claim solo q would be better if people played more like a team instead of selfishly, and bodyblocking is playing like a team.

  • TragicSolitude
    TragicSolitude Member, Alpha Surveyor Posts: 7,469
    edited January 26

    And ban eyes, too. My friend and I play in the same room together, we glance at each other's screens constantly.

  • iloveandhatethisgame
    iloveandhatethisgame Member Posts: 352

    we got killer mains saying that they bhvr should “remove Swf from regular games and be in customs”. Bhvr isn’t gonna ruin their game from a financial standpoint just so that yall get your winning streaks

  • JPLongstreet
    JPLongstreet Member Posts: 6,168

    In the same room? For shame. Let's have those ears as well.....

  • WolfePhD
    WolfePhD Member Posts: 92

    I will play Devil's Advocate and pretend that SWF is an evil abomination that must be stopped. What are we doing about it?

    It's more efficient if we think about a problem, design practical, realistic solutions, and then discuss those solutions as a community.

    We can't poop our SWF diapers and run around crying and screaming. We have to do the legwork for BHVR to take us seriously.

  • vol4r
    vol4r Member Posts: 349

    SWF is excuse for bad killers to be honest. I wish it was shown in the endgame table who was solo or premade. I believe this would make a lot of people feel stupid when they found out it was solo que after all, not swf like they thought

    I love playing against SWF because they are overly altruistic and I find enjoyment in not letting them bully me

    Also, If SWFing wouldn't be a thing I would not play survivior at all. Probably a lot of people wouldn't either

  • UknownShredder
    UknownShredder Member Posts: 61

    People who say SWF is not a problem and an excuse for a killer ccant have their head straight. How would it be playing WoW Arena without coms? Counterstrike without being able to call out bases? The amount of information you get from SWF is more than any perk in the game and arguably more than all perks combined.

    I play ghostface as a main and when i face a sweaty SWF i got some super looper on me following me around the map and if i were to turn he will bring me to like the loop in coldwindfarm that you cannot win against while telling his teammates, its okay i got the killer on the other side of the map you can calmly do the gens over there.

    And then oh, The killer decided to leave me at this god tier loop he is coming towards shack now so it would be a good idea if you leave unles you are almost done , you got plenty of time he is mid map atm, going in right side btw so be ready with the pallet if he is indeed going there. Ill be following him around so he cannot go stealth for minute of this game no problemos.

  • sanees
    sanees Member Posts: 684

    The difference is that in CS and other games communication is built into the game and is not limited in any way, in dbd communication is specifically disabled, playing dbd in swf is the same as playing among us where the dead player just says who killed him

  • Yippiekiyah
    Yippiekiyah Member Posts: 500

    If map balance wasn't atrocious swf wouldn't be half as bad as it is, that is where they need to focus their attention.