General Discussions
General Discussions
About the "slug meta"
Comments
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Because slugging hasn't changed. Hooking has indirectly, as you said, and that's why people are now seeing that it is better to just slug than hook.
Seriously, you either misunderstood my point (read my other posts), or I don't know what you are trying to say.
Post edited by Batusalen on1 -
Again, if everything that BHVR has done to hooks, regression perks, and mechanics without touching gen progression since 6.1 has nothing to do with it, then why is it just now that people are realizing that using an 8 years old perk and doing something that has always been an option, like bleeding out the 4 survivors, is more rewarding and time viable than hooking them? Because you said "in the past 6 months", but in reality this was cooking for years, and a lot of people saw it coming way before it started happening.
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I will first say I’m wrong about the e & the t.
I will next say that my point is still the same.
Slugging is going up because some content creators make it seem it’s the most effective way to win games when all it’s doing is showing that solo queue is not prepared for it. Most solo survs are bad and they don’t run anti-slug perks/don’t use them effectively. 4 man Slugging only beats up on the weakest role in the game and you still rarely see it. For something to be meta you have to see it often.
So again the slug meta is not real. It will never be real because the meta will shift to combat it because there are already strong tools to do so.
you bought the game. Play however you want. But the “slug meta” is artificial.0 -
These are just post hoc excuses.
You spend an awful lot of time with mental gymnastics to explain why people are slugging more to come to the conclusion that "but people aren't slugging more". Pick one.
I use WGLF as an instructive example. Basically, the way I see your argument (and others) is simply "if you buff killers (or give back previous nerfs) this wouldn't be happening". Which is not only not why this is happening, it's also a total lie. We've had years of the same thing "if you nerf (dead hard, maps, pallets, MFT, medkits, CoH, prove, BNP, and the list goes on) then killers won't have to tunnel and camp". Yet tunneling and camping is still meta, still an issue.
So I flip it, and ironically claim that "WGLF being nerfed" is the reason slugging increased recently. It's certainly a more recent change than anything you mentioned, but it would be a survivor buff, so you probably can't even consider that for a second.
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The only change that occurred anywhere near the time this started is the extra 10 seconds hook timer (8.2.0 - august 2024). Which, by the way, only comes into play if the killer is camping or lurking near hook to tunnel. Suddenly all of the complaints about instant unhooking to keep killer pressure at a minimum are forgotten and people lose their minds because they can't conceive of not camping or tunneling in this game.
hook grabs removal, +10s to hook timers, StB introduction, sabo buffs.
Now, let's take a look at what you can do in terms of killer gameplay which can remotely be called meta.
Camp - well, viable if you actually manage to hook survivor inside a 3-gen or other very beneficial zone. Hard countered by basekit +10s hook stage time and Reassurance.
Tunnel - 3v1 is the best situation killer can have, but with all anti-tunneling perks existing, if your opponent is remotely experienced, this won't really work and you will lose way too much time while trying to push opponents into a 3v1.
Slug - much lower risk in terms of time wasted in terms of countering off-hook survivor perks, but having 2 WGLFs in opponent team means you are not going to even remotely be able to slug anyone (i am talking about current version, imagine how powerful previous one was).
12 hooks/forcing fresh hooks - ??? this is the biggest possible waste of your time as killer and the most inefficient kind of strategy you can use unless you want to flex skill difference between you and your opponents as an ideal way to handicap yourself. Additionally, Introduction of StB basically works towards forcing 12-hooking, which pretty much tells you enough about this strategy.
All in all, since there are 4 survivors with 16 perks in total, you can literally combine anti-tunnel, anti-slug and anti-camp to not only counter camping, tunneling and slugging, but to also force 12-hooking as the most inefficient way to play the game as killer.
And what tools do you actually have as the killer to counter survivor meta? You basically only have Corrupt to serve as a bit of a help against early gen splitting, which is literally survivor version of killer forcing early 3v1. Eruption, DMS and Grim are the only actually useful slowdowns nowadays (Grim varies in terms of how much 4th survivor is able to delay your 4th stack).
And ngl, at this point i think only those 4 perks are actually true meta for killer.
The version we have now (8.0+) is objectively better than when it was considered a meta perk and one of the best in 6.1.0. There's also been no change to pop in almost a year, so there's zero excuse for it to be included in a recent "slugging meta" in the past couple months.
Pop is useless now. Like truly useless. Even on high mobility, which can get some of it's value, it relies on 90%+ gens to actually be on level of Eruption in terms of consistency of value.
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The version we have now (8.0+) is objectively better than when it was considered a meta perk and one of the best in 6.1.0. There's also been no change to pop in almost a year, so there's zero excuse for it to be included in a recent "slugging meta" in the past couple months.So that's why it's pickrate dropped MASSIVELY, and has gone up only after getting buffed to 30%?
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Guys.
The slug meta is not a problem, it's a symptom.
The game has three major issues right now: Gen regression is too weak, hooking is survivor-favored, and Killers aren't balanced around high-end SWF.
If the game was balanced around SWF, it would be a lot better imo. They've SLOWLY been doing this by giving the Survivor HUD more information (who's doing gens, who's being chased, etc.) but they need to go a step further and implement a ping system and text chat system (with the ability to block/mute people mid-game.)
When solo survivor is successfully at the same power level as SWF, we can then buff Killer to compensate. Now SWF isn't that much of a gamebreaking advantage anymore and both sides are fun to play. You guys have been treading this path already with the Survivor HUD additions, but you're moving too slowly. Add more information and tools for Survivors, maybe a ping system and chat system and buff killer to compensate.
With that out of the way, we still have the issue of slugging. The problem is, hooking is severely disincentivized due to activating EXTREMELY powerful Survivor perks. Gen slowdown is heavily nerfed (which also disincentivizes hooking for some perks such as Pain Res and Pop), both of which are contributing to heavy slugging which is boring for Survivors.
We need to incentivize hooks, especially multiple so that both sides have time to play (no one likes dying on the first hook.) There are multiple ways to do this, such as having a global 7% gen regression on any hook (just an example.) Another issue is that picking up a survivor leaves the killer extremely vulnerable to Flashbangs which have no counterplay at the moment (looking away doesn't help if the survivor drops it too close, so it's entirely in their favor.) You can't just incentivize hooking, you ALSO need to incentivize picking up.
The game is better than it used to be but BHVR's shortsightedness is blaring at an all-time right now. The game needs massive help because high MMR is really frustrating for Killer and Survivor due to the game's balance. Gen regression is too weak, hooking is survivor-favored, and Killers aren't balanced around high-end SWF.
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when you do basic maths, perk literally isn't worth running unless you are kicking 90%+ gen with it, and even in that case ot's only semi-useful on high mobility killers.
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I have bad news.
Killers are doing just fine, even in High MMR. They are at or above BHVR's target of 60% KR.
Buffing gen regression isn't going to get people not to slug lol. It will make slugging even more prevalent. We saw that with CoB, Overcharge and Eruption. Three MASSIVELY overtuned perks that made Killer into super-easy mode. Did we see a reduction of tunneling? No. Why? Because players will always optimize the fun out of games.
If there's an oppressive strat, people will abuse it until they cannot.
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I don't think the idea of balancing around anti-fun is fair. Balance around making the game fun, and just discourage the anti-fun strategies instead (which they have done with the anti-camp self-unhook mechanic, among others)
If you balance around what's anti-fun, instead of just designing more fun into the game, you end up into a whack-a-mole situation where you just keep smashing whatever the community thinks is most toxic at the time, until the game is boring and homogenized.Also, I can tell that you just skimmed my post because buffing regression (or just adding hook incentives in general) would ideally be done after buffing solo queue to the level of SWF. The game's REAL problem is that the game isn't balanced around SWF when it absolutely should be.
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The actual real issue, which is what you are getting close to, is that the game is balanced around SWF.
The game used to be balanced around Solo Q with all the absolutely wild ######### you could have/do. Over time, that has dwindled. Now, Killers are built to deal with 4-man SWF's. Solo Q has been left in the dust due to these changes.
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Solo queue gets to eat it because whenever we suggest targeted nerfs at SWF everyone says we can't punish people for playing with their friends so solo queue gets to suffer!
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Text chat? Who tf has time to text chat in this game? There's barely enough time in SoloQ to open a chest or put up a boon and you want text chat? Ping? Yea sounds great, a troll Surv cluttering up the information feed with constant pings of nothing.
This game either needs actual comms like every other multiplayer game in existence, or SWF need to be nerfed. That's literally it and honestly the game needs both; SWF need hard nerfs that only affect them and SoloQ needs voice chat that obviously people can choose to mute if they want, but it should be an option.
Before anyone comes to cry about my comment on how it's unfair to nerf people who play with their friends, it's not fair to ruin matches for everyone else who boots up this game who aren't playing with friends. Balance is balance, it's not a punishment all of a sudden because people who want to play with their friends and abuse advantages, get those advantages taken away.
Every single match of SoloQ is nothing but a camp/tunnel/slugfest with Killers using Lethal to down someone in 10 seconds and then start a chain of combinations of deadmans/grim/painres so gens are untouchable at 5 gens and forever more, or Killers are bringing full slug builds and we all just get bled out for the entire match. BHVR is gonna have to move bots over to the official mode because if this keeps up, SoloQ player retention is going to plummet and drive up queue times as Killers absolutely don't want to just face SWF teams.
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Neither is a good option.
One is a quick death, one is slow. Making people feel bad about queueing with friends will be so bad.
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I think 2 things could be useful to counter the slugging meta.
1 Rework knockout. Its egregious vs solo queue survivor and not very useful vs swf on comms.
2 Up the bleedout timer by atleast a minute or so, maybe even 2.
But honestly maybe every perk that syerngizes heavily with slugging should get looked at a bit if it needs potential changes.
Maybe buff some gen perks and/or some chase perks for killers to compensate.
I think if this meta continues and expands it will be very unhealthy for solo queue survivor.
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thankfully they've tested base kit Unbreakable in the past and have confirmed (to my knowledge), never going to happen again
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And what changes had they made in these recent years that had rebuilt killers to deal with 4-man SWF and shifted the game to be balanced around them, exactly? Just curious…
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The destruction of old maps. Nerfing of older perks. Tile spawn logic rework. Regression expansion. 6.1.0. Pretty much all Killers coming with basekit anti-loop. A wealth of aura perks. MMR.
Perhaps all of those things seemed straightforward at the time, but they've rebalanced the game to be SWF vs Killer, where it was SWF >> Killer = Solo Q, now it is SWF = Killer >> Solo Q
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game is balanced around SWF for completely different reasons, and even with that in mind, we can clearly see that perks that are literally way too powerful in SWF are not even in plans for being touched at all.
If we balanced the game around soloQ, we would balance it around artificially inflated killrates through going next on hook, playing for whatever objectives that are different than team related ones etc.
Game SHOULD be balanced around SWF with QoL changes implemented to soloQ that would make overall experience better while not making the game more about making SWFs even more powerful, but making soloQ players feel even more spoiled.
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I'm still of the simple opinion of : you don't need to do this. At all.
Hooking is as viable as it has been a couple of months before.
Some people just want their matches to be chill (which is absolutely understandable) but also win all the time (which contradicts with the first one).
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This post hits the nail on the head for me. It’s exactly like when tunnelling was rife ‘because everyone was using dead hard and I have to counter it’ completely negating the fact that the rise in people using DH in the first place was to counter the growing trend of tunnelling. Did tunnelling stop when DH was nerfed? No, it continued and some killers even were happy to admit they were going to carry on tunnelling because it was ‘the most efficient play style’.
it’s the same now. There are so many excuses given about how ‘x,y,z has been nerfed, completely negating that it was the overuse of those elements that lead to that nerf in the first place, that they have to slug. However when the majority of the times you’re being slugged is at 5 gens, or for the 4k or because the killer is unhappy at how the match is going and just wants you all to bleed out, which is where we are at now, it needs review and even if other things changed and slugging stayed the same I don’t don’t killers would stop doing it because it’s too easy of a fallback. It can snowball a match quite easily in their favour.
Someone said in another thread that it’s not fair to label all killers that slug as ‘toxic’ and I agree - however slugging is now getting to a point where it is genuinely cresting a toxic environment. It seriously needs addressing because it’s harming the health of the game.
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it can't still be as viable as it used to be few months ago when last hook based killer meta perk, Pain Res, got nerfed again, while survivors got currently strongest survivor perk StB, hook grabs removed, +10s to hook timers and saboing buffed. Only two actually meta hook related killer perks are Grim and DMS.
Perks are not necessarily nerfed because they are overused (Corrupt and WoO for example), perks are nerfed for various known and unknown reasons (more often unknown). Pain Res was nerfed to a 4 fresh hooks token based system because of it's synergy with old DMS, Pop received a hard nerf that rendered it borderline useless.
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The destruction of old maps. […] Tile spawn logic rework.
What do you mean by "destruction"? The removal of infinite loops? Reducing the size of gigantic maps so killers with low mobility don't have to spend a long time to reach a gen? And what about the tiles? Again, do you mean not allowing survivors to link strong loops one after another, making them a pseudo-infinite loop?…
Nerfing of older perks.
What perks? Old DH, that allowed survivors to make every chase take at least 1/2 longer? Old-old DH, that was even worse in putting the killer in lose-lose situations? The ones that allowed you to heal between hits?…
Regression expansion.
And how does that "expansion" help against 4-man SWF when they nerfed every single one of those perks, leaving only 1.5 of them viable?
6.1.0
What part of it made dealing with a 4-man SWF easier?
Pretty much all Killers coming with basekit anti-loop.
And how does anti-loop help specifically to deal with a coordinated 4-man SWF?
A wealth of aura perks.
Same question as before. Also, survivors were the ones that shifted the game from stealth to looping. What do you want, being able to hide all the match and then make the killer do a Benny Hill sketch with you for 50 seconds minimum when he finds you?
MMR.
… how the same SBMM that can put a baby killer against a 4-man P100 SWF with SWAT level coordination help him against them, exactly?
I don't know, man. Seems like most of the changes you are talking about were those that balanced the power trip playing survivor in the day was, and things that yeah, made chase easier for Killers in general compared to when the game was survivor sided, but I don't see how any of that helps them specifically against 4-man SWF to the point of being able to claim "The game is balanced around Killers vs SWF now".
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Yeah this slug meta was bound to happen ever since the game moved towards survivors benefiting more being on the hooked then the killers. Which is a fact that cant be deny when we look at the pros and cons for putting survivors on a hook in this current moment its so simple to see, that survivors actually benefits more then killers. The benefits for survivors on hook are as following:
- 70 Seconds on hook per stage so 140 seconds in total
- When off the hook they have 10% Haste and 10% of endurance even at end game
- Survivors can see when you are picked up and hooked given them valuable information
- 4% chance to get off the hook
- Anti Face camp
and that just at base when we start involving perks/ Items and addons it gets even crazier where for some of them you dont need to be hooked just picked up at min.
- Access to powerful perks like DS, Dead Hard, Off the record and sholder the burden plus many more
- Sabo is so easy and quick to do now, impossible to counter if using alexs tool boxes
- Flashlight saves again so easy to do and flashbang has no counter even facing the wall does nothing
now lets compare on what benefits killers get on hooking a survivor
- Progress on their objective on killing a survivor
- small amount of pressure on other survivors (and that me being genrous on that)
and thats it for base but what about perks? well
- Pain res and Pop are in their weakest forms and barely does any impact in the game.
- DMS, Grim is Ok at best
- other hook related perks are arugably meh at best and work in niche sceanios
also on a side note Pain, Grim destroy themselves after their uses which is insane when you think about it can you imagine a survivor perk that destory itself after use with no way of bringing it back to life?! and i can see the many posts on the postive of slugging so not going to type that all out as this post is long enough haha.
But overall we all here want to move back to a healthier gameplay loop but we cant do that if we give another stick to killers like base unbreakable that is not the right answer its a knee jerk answer without actually thinking it through . We got to see why killers have moved towards the slugging as i have pointed out in terms of Hooks having less value to killers then survivors and work on addressing those concerns which in turn will move towards a healthier gameplay loop.
I know for some people in this forum will never agree to what i say and thats fine i just hope one of the devs can read this and understand the big cause of this slug meta and from what i heard that the feedback on slugging was very survivor focus so this post is to give feedback on the slugging in terms of a killer focus so they have the whole story and not half of it.
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This
What part of it made dealing with a 4-man SWF easier?
and this
And how does anti-loop help specifically to deal with a coordinated 4-man SWF?
are different things.
A buff doesn't have to be specifically tailored to dealing with 4-man swiffers to still help against 4-man swiffers. The action speed increase, the reduced hit-sprint, the longer generators, all of those will help you deal with a 4-man swiffer, even if they aren't -specifically- designed to deal with a 4-man swiffer. That's what I wager Pulsar is referring to when they state that the game is now balanced around swiffers, not solos. Killers just got flat buffs across the board to bump them up from solo tier to swiffer tier.
Think of it like this: If you want to shorten the gap between Nurse and Trapper, you don't need to specifically give Trapper the ability to phase through walls so that he's specifically more analogous to Nurse. You can also give him pre-installed traps, auto-resetting traps, more trap carrying capacity, or some new ability to trap generators. These won't help him compete better with -specifically Nurse-, but they will help him compete better with Nurse anyway.
sholder the burden
I still do not understand how Shoulder the Burden is considered a 'powerful perk'. All it does is make someone exposed upon unhooking. It's Make Your Choice, except it's in a survivor slot.
Unless, of course, you're a tunnelling addict.
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I still do not understand how Shoulder the Burden is considered a 'powerful perk'. All it does is make someone exposed upon unhooking. It's Make Your Choice, except it's in a survivor slot.
it literally, LITERALLY forces 12-hooking. It doesn't only hard counter tunneling, it punishes any hooking order that isn't constantly fresh 1-2-3-4 hooking. This kind of gameplay is literally hardcore bad for killers with today's state of hooking.
I literally can't understand how can you even say that it only counters tunneling and how it is "not powerful" at all? Good survivor doesn't care if they have additional hook state at all.
But hey, it's really fun how some of the best survivor perks in the game, like Deli, StB and Reassurance get heavily underestimated within pub community because people mainly think there is only one use for every perk :D
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This
What part of it made dealing with a 4-man SWF easier?and thisAnd how does anti-loop help specifically to deal with a coordinated 4-man SWF?are different things.Yeah, that's why they are two questions to two different topics…
A buff doesn't have to be specifically tailored to dealing with 4-man swiffers to still help against 4-man swiffers. […]
True. Just like I said, some things he mentioned did help Killers to chase survivors compared to when the game was survivor sided, no doubt.
But if those things weren't specifically tailored around "4-man SWF vs Killer", then it is a general purpose buff / nerf that affects everybody, SWF or not, and you can't use it to claim that the game is balanced around them. That would be like saying that buffing flashlights or base speed would be balancing the game around SoloQ vs Killers, even when the buff affects SWF too. It doesn't make sense.
Think of it like this: If you want to shorten the gap between Nurse and Trapper, you don't need to specifically give Trapper the ability to phase through walls so that he's specifically more analogous to Nurse. […]
False correlation. You are talking about specific changes to a specific killer to balance him around another killer, and he is mainly talking about general changes that affected a side as a whole, both sides, or don't have anything to do with going against coordinated 4-man SWF like the MMR to argue that the game is balanced around "SWF vs Killer".
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it literally, LITERALLY forces 12-hooking.
No it doesn't. It can only be used three times per match to any kind of effect, since using it while you have a hookstate already on the books will immediately put you on death hook, while also making you exposed. It also requires at least three copies to be in play in order to achieve this effect, since it can effectively only add one per perk.
it punishes any hooking order
How does it 'punish' it? By giving the user the 'exposed' status? How is that a punishment?
It subverts it, it doesn't 'punish' it. You're not worse off when tunnelling into an StB than you would be if you weren't tunnelling at all. You're taking tunnelling as the baseline and judging from there, that's why you think StB is strong. It's a counter to your favourite strategy and you are not adapting to it.
This kind of gameplay is literally hardcore bad for killers with today's state of hooking.
I remember back before killers got buffed out the wazoo when killers would avoid tunnelling just to not hit DS. Then they got buffed a bunch and suddenly we're all hyperdependent on it or something.
But if those things weren't specifically tailored around "4-man SWF vs Killer", then it is a general purpose buff / nerf that affects everybody, SWF or not, and you can't use it to claim that the game is balanced around them.
If you have Solo and killer both at C grade and swiffer at A grade, then it's clear that the game is generally balanced around C grade, no?
So if you then buff killer up to A grade to be right next to swiffer, then it's clear the game is generally balanced around A grade now, no?
That's why these buffs, even if they're not specifically designed to counter swiffers, still mean it's balanced around swiffers.
That would be like saying that buffing flashlights or base speed would be balancing the game around SoloQ vs Killers, even when the buff affects SWF too. It doesn't make sense.
It would be balancing around solo queue, though. Because this would push swiffers OUT of balance. If you buffed solo queue to be on par with killers, in a way which would also buff swiffers, then swiffers would automatically become the outlier, no?
False correlation. You are talking about specific changes to a specific killer to balance him around another killer, and he is mainly talking about general changes that affected a side as a whole, both sides, or don't have anything to do with going against coordinated 4-man SWF like the MMR to argue that the game is balanced around "SWF vs Killer".
It's not a correlation, it's an analogy.
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[…] So if you then buff killer up to A grade to be right next to swiffer, then it's clear the game is generally balanced around A grade now, no? […]
You are assuming that those changes were made to put Killers at the level of SWF or that it was the result of them when there's nothing that indicates such. In fact, just as I explained, none of them helped Killers to specifically deal with 4-man SWF, but with survivors in general.
It would be balancing around solo queue, though. Because this would push swiffers OUT of balance. If you buffed solo queue to be on par with killers, in a way which would also buff swiffers, then swiffers would automatically become the outlier, no?
If you are buffing SoloQ in a way that also buff SWF, then you are not buffing SoloQ, you are buffing survivors as a whole. Ergo, you are not balancing around SoloQ specifically, and you can't claim that they are now balancing the game around SoloQ vs Killers.
It's not a correlation, it's an analogy.
My bad, allow me to rectify: What you did there is a false analogy fallacy, not a correlation.
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By making maps smaller, they forced the tiles (and gens) to be closer together. This made it so that Killers felt like there was higher tile density, but the actual number of tiles remained the same. That is, until recently, where they simply adjusted that logic. Now, fewer tiles spawn, fewer still with pallets.
They also completely destroyed the old atmosphere of those maps, but that isn't a balance thing.
DS being 3 seconds and useless for a long while, Self-Care (seriously why), Iron Will, etc etc. Yeah, DH too. A perk that relies on ping isn't a good perk.
PR, PGTW, Corrupt, DMS are all bad now? And you are seriously going to hold that argument that if regression was better Killers wouldn't do X? Of course they would. That's how video games work.
You seem to be under some false narrative that 4-man High MMR SWF's are overpowered and winning all the time.
They aren't. They aren't even escaping 50% of the time, based off of our most recent stats from BHVR.
By making maps smaller, they forced loop quality to go down. This means Survivor skill matters far less than Killer incompetence. That coupled with getting rid of meta perks, whilst also increasing the number of anti-loop and anti-gen aspects of the game, has disproportionally affected Solo Q Survivors.
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Last line revealed that major bias lololol.
SWF aren't even escaping 50% of the time in the best case scenario.
Look, just be honest, if you want the KR to be 75%, just say that.
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By making maps smaller, they forced the tiles (and gens) to be closer together. […]
What makes this a change that makes the game balanced around "SWF vs Killer"?
DS being 3 seconds and useless for a long while, Self-Care (seriously why), Iron Will, etc etc. Yeah, DH too. A perk that relies on ping isn't a good perk.
Same question.
PR, PGTW, Corrupt, DMS are all bad now?
PR and PGTW are the 1.5 regression perks that are still viable, with PGTW being debatable as it depends on the current progression the gen you are kicking has. And yet, none of them are worth running nowadays if comparing them to simply slugging the survivors for all the reasons already mentioned.
Corrupt and DMS are not regression perks, but funnily enough, both have received nerfs since 6.1.
And you are seriously going to hold that argument that if regression was better Killers wouldn't do X? Of course they would. That's how video games work.
I'm not going to hold that argument, because I never made it. In fact, I never said that slugging doesn't need to be addressed.
My argument was and has always been that the mistake BHVR made was making all those changes that made slugging more rewarding than hooking without dealing with the core problem (gen progression / min gen times). That, and that they will make an even bigger mistake if they implement another base mechanic to deal with slugging without dealing with it first (and with first, I mean preferably at the same time).
You seem to be under some false narrative that 4-man High MMR SWF's are overpowered and winning all the time.
What part of anything I said has made you come to that conclusion?
By making maps smaller, they forced loop quality to go down. This means Survivor skill matters far less than Killer incompetence.
That doesn't make any sense. In any case, it is the contrary: With no easy infinites and fewer super-safe loops you can use, survivor skills matter more than ever, as now you have to loop well to use them in an effective manner.
Are you telling me that you consider it more skillful to just vault a window in an infinite loop over and over again than needing enough game sense to know when to drop the pallet, stay or leave the loop, etc.?
That coupled with getting rid of meta perks, whilst also increasing the number of anti-loop and anti-gen aspects of the game, has disproportionally affected Solo Q Survivors.
But all that also affects SWF…
Again, you are claiming that those changes made the game be balanced around "4-man SWF vs Killers". What I'm asking you is how those changes accomplished that when they affect all survivors or even both sides and not just SWF / SoloQ.
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As a killer player I still feel like Blight/Nurse need dealt with before we can see any meaningful changes to DBD to make it better for all killers, Hyper mobility is a plague to this game, the servers can barely keep up and it's so funny to see how quick it was dealt with but the obsession to keep Nurse the way she is and Blight too, and how easy it is for them to slug because of such.
Deal with them.1 -
Ah, I see. You only consider intent, not outcome, and you give no value to an interpretation of the outcome.
No point in continuing then, because I'm not from BHVR.
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Because the vast majority of players aren't playing Blight/Nurse at anywhere near the level where they're actually problematic. They're exceptionally harder on console which is the majority of the player base. Just because MomoSeventh and LilithOmen exist doesn't mean these killers are a problem. It's the same argument people make to defend 4 man death squads. Somehow it's okay to leave sweaty SWF untouched because "you barely run into them" but any killer that can remotely compete with them player at their top level means they need to be nerfed. Okay then. You're barely ever running into god tier Blights and Nurses
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bias? Please tell me what is bias in a game where average player refuses to look back at their own mistakes and proceeds to make essays of excuses after they lose?
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As for me: hooking became unfun, gen regression nerfed, but wasting surv time by constantly recovering works very well. And I don't have to waste 15 second to take some1 to hook. Balancing made this bed, I would prefer more powerful gen regres perks.
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Hook grab removal has been a long time ago. Shoulder the burden is in almost no games, for real. Pain res is still strong.
You sound like someone that uses "meta" only. I encourage you to look beyond that. You can play however you want of course. I dont slug because i see no reason to do so. My builds still work like they used to work.8 -
You are "interpreting an outcome" that you yourself came up with (Killers are at the same level as SWF) with the only argument supporting it being you assuming that those changes were made to get that outcome in the first place. Just like I said, "You are assuming that those changes were made to put Killers at the level of SWF or that it was the result of them when there's nothing that indicates such".
So yeah, your "interpretation of the outcome" that you fabricated has no value at all. Have a nice day.
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The closest thing to a 50/50 (Also known as 'balance') is high level swiffer. Solo is miles under the mark. 'Scuse us for assuming that if the game happens to be balanced around swiffer, that it is balanced for swiffer.
bias? Please tell me what is bias in a game where average player refuses to look back at their own mistakes and proceeds to make essays of excuses after they lose?
Weren't you complaining about DS the other day?
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Saying "Solo Q is spoiled" is pretty biased.
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’hooking became unfun… wasting survivor time works well’
thank you for this wonderful example of the very attitude that is ruining the game and why slugging needs addressing.5 -
Literally anyone can play them competently if you give it a little time and patience, they are problematic, I play them and the new server desync thats came back this hotfix makes it so awful and easy to play I don't wanna hear the "Nowhere near that level".
MMR forces people to play against more experienced killers naturually the more the play, not because "High MMR" but because people who play often and optimally will plataeu in the same ranges.
Furthermore with the introduction of new regions, the playerbases are even smaller in EU now, I face said killers all the time, just because America has a bigger playerbase doesn't mean the rest of the world isn't dealing with the effects of crap MMR.
I think a lot of players need to start listening to each other and realise that these problems are common for the active playerbase who play OFTEN. Nurse is very unhealthy for the game, Blight is Unhealthy, I feel if these killers were dealt with we could make the game better for killers in general by giving QoL to the base game.
the game needs more help for casuals, there is no "Skill experession" in Nurse or blight, its point A to B quickly, they can't do anything crazy, they just do the same thing over and over.1 -
I think you are clearly over estimating how good it is in a coordinated team, in solo queue i agree it's bad. MFT is really good in a team as well but in solo queue it is not. WGLF is bad but not in a team. The thing that i'm trying to say here is that perks here can be used in solo queue but are not nearly as effective if you were to run these perks in a 4-man squad. The best example of this is the newest perk they released which is Shoulder Of Burden, perk that you rarely against solo queue players but is very common against teams. One Unbreakable cost me the entire match because i was Slugging, the strat that everybody says is an instant win button for killer
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If you have two characters with a power level of 50, and a third with a power level of 75, you would not be remiss in saying that the game is balanced around a power level of 50.
If one of the characters with a PL of 50 was then buffed to a PL of 75, you would then say that the game is balanced around a PL of 75.
They are gen affecting perks and complete the exact same objective, slowing the game down.
The fact that you keep referencing SWF in every sentence pertaining to an imbalance of power.
I'll refrain from posting the picture of Haddonfield's pallet. No infinites were not skillful, but we've moved to the opposite. Now we have tiles that are actually useless. Most Coldwind tiles are horrible, for example. Almost zero gyms spawn and all you get are ######### filler pallets and massive dead zones. How skillful of the Killer to hit someone when there's nothing for miles?
SWF can make up for poor perks via communication, which has always been the strongest tool in the game. Solo Q feels the loss of perks and maps far more keenly because they have nothing else to pick them up.
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Considering they ran full meta and were clearly trying hard, not sure I can make any real judgement off of this one image.
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How can you say that the game is balanced around SWF when killers like Legion and Ghostface exist? Or maps like The Game that completely nullify killers like Trickster who essentially becomes an M1 bot (not to mention all the pallets)
The game is broken at top MMR, and SWF is to blame for it. I know you said killers are doing fine at high MMR - I'm not denying that, that's not my point - my point is that the game isn't necessarily fun for both sides. How is it fair or fun if hooks reward the survivors more than the killer?
We need more hook incentives for a healthier gamestate. Gen regression is just one method. How can you say that killers are made to deal with SWF (which, they SHOULD be) when Legion, Skull Mommy and Ghostface are all objectively D-tier? I genuinely don't understand how you can argue that the solo Q experience is worse than the INTENDED Killer experience (key word: INTENDED) at top level MMR. Like just watch ANY of Tru3Talent's recent videos on YT - literally one of the best killer players in the world - and look how he has to play to make lower tier killers work in top level DBD.
It's ridiculous. It's not fun for anyone to be slugged to death - not for solo Q or for SWF. And it's not fun for Killer to hook survivors and activate their Terminator perks. And what if I don't want to camp or tunnel? What if I want to play with everyone and have a mutually enjoyable lobby?
What advice would you give me?
One thing we agree on is that solo queue survivor needs buffs. I just want to get solo survivor up to the level of SWF via information (pings, text chat, more HUD indicators, etc.) and then buff Killer overall (and on an individual basis as necessary) to compensate. Overall I believe this is the best foundation for the game's future.
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Everbody runs Meta at nearly every level in this game. My point was that 1 perk basically counters the "god" build of slugging.
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not slugging needs adressing but hooking, make it fun again
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Same does apply to survivor zho. As per the posted stats, both solo and swf high mmr survivors are performing above target escape rate.
Tell me, is nerfing a character acceptable because a few outliers outperform the average? If you say this about nurse, the same applies to survivor.
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