General Discussions
General Discussions
About the "slug meta"
Comments
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Or was it coordination?
Or was it an unfair skill distrubution?
Or was it a bad map?
There are other factors.
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do you think sitting on gens for 90 seconds is fun? It’s not.
Pick someone up - put them on a hook. It takes like 10 seconds on average. . It’s been that way since 2016 and hasn’t changed. I don’t see how it’s become ‘unfun’.
Hooks have revived so many buffs in recent years. It’s literally just an excuse.
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Hook grab removal has been a long time ago. Shoulder the burden is in almost no games, for real. Pain res is still strong.
Deliverance is also rarely used and is yet the most oppressive and powerful survivor perk.
Pain Res is not that strong anymore after the 5% nerf. It's okayish and probably would hold low A-tier. Eruption is the only actually still very good regression perk.
You sound like someone that uses "meta" only. I encourage you to look beyond that. You can play however you want of course. I dont slug because i see no reason to do so. My builds still work like they used to work.
my opponent plays meta, why should i handicap myself to suit their agenda? And i slug because that's basically necessary part of Oni's power.
My build used to have Pain Res constantly, but after many matches with the post-nerf version of it, i dropped it for Eruption.
Weren't you complaining about DS the other day?
yes, i was. DS was tweaked in a way where it became even more powerful against majority of killers it was already strong against, while the core problem of it against Billy, Nurse and Blight still remained. There was a way to make the perk be much better against Nurse, Blight and Billy while not being even more powerful against other killers but hey, i guess "casual" players know better.
what exactly is wrong with my statement? People literally feel the full freedom to play soloQ in ways where they are actively sabotaging their team. People in SWFs won't decide to just troll if the rest of their team isn't trolling, people in SWF won't give up if the rest of their team doesn't want to. Why? Because they know they are playing with their friends and they don't want to throw the match for the whole team to fail.
On top of everything, every single change implemented to help soloQ often isn't even utilized by people in soloQ at all.
Now again, what's exactly wrong with my statement?
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yes, i was. DS was tweaked in a way where it became even more powerful against majority of killers it was already strong against, while the core problem of it against Billy, Nurse and Blight still remained. There was a way to make the perk be much better against Nurse, Blight and Billy while not being even more powerful against other killers but hey, i guess "casual" players know better.
Don't you think you're the wrong person to call others out for 'refusing to look back at their own mistakes' when you still get your knickers in a twist over DS?
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All of those things but i honestly thought the Matchmaking ystem would fix "the unfair skill distrubution"
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please tell me how did you draw the DS problematic-refusal to improve logic because mind you, you are just the one who failed to get the point of DS problematic and are indirectly ignoring the problem this perk creates for majority of killers, while still not performing well against S-tiers.
Or we should all maybe understand the game from casual aspect, while trying to go for the best outcomes, like you are trying to do?
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If something is not existant in matches, then its not a good reason for a big change in gameplay if you ask me personally. Same with deli.
As you play Oni, i see why you slug. The power heavily favours it. No doubt about that. I think this post is more about general slugging though. Not killer specific slugging. Plague and Hag are also great sluggers due to their powers supporting a fast down playstyle.
As I said, you do you. As a little advice though: Only using meta can make your experience very stale and quickly unfun. At least from my experience. Enjoy your matches!
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Because apparently, this post-6.1 generation of killers has failed to learn from their mistakes over the past years and adapt to the impact DS is supposed to have, which is why it got nerfed back down.
It is the most avoidable perk in the entire game and yet loads of killer players still complain about it. Including yourself. So to point the finger at survivors and accuse them of not learning from their mistakes while apparently still refusing to learn to counterplay DS, just strikes me as hypocritical.
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the us vs them mentality in that video and the yt comments is just so exhausting and is why this community is insufferable
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Not when it only weighs Kills and Escapes as wins and losses.
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DS is fine right now, are you implying that DS in its current state is too strong?
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If you have two characters with a power level of 50, and a third with a power level of 75, you would not be remiss in saying that the game is balanced around a power level of 50. […]
You did the exact same thing as Firellius, just with different wording. So, I'm just going to copy-paste what I said to him:
You are assuming that those changes were made to put Killers at the level of SWF or that it was the result of them when there's nothing that indicates such. In fact, just as I explained, none of them helped Killers to specifically deal with 4-man SWF, but with survivors in general.They are gen affecting perks and complete the exact same objective, slowing the game down.
Alright. Still no regression perks, and still nerfed since 6.1.
I'll refrain from posting the picture of Haddonfield's pallet. No infinites were not skillful, but we've moved to the opposite. Now we have tiles that are actually useless. Most Coldwind tiles are horrible, for example. Almost zero gyms spawn and all you get are ######### filler pallets and massive dead zones. How skillful of the Killer to hit someone when there's nothing for miles?
So, again, your complaint is that now you can't link strong loops one after another in every map, and now there are some tiles where you need to get the stunt for them to be useful, which requires skill and timing, before getting to the next strong loop, right?
SWF can make up for poor perks via communication, which has always been the strongest tool in the game. Solo Q feels the loss of perks and maps far more keenly because they have nothing else to pick them up.
How? How has having communication helped anyone with "DS being 3 seconds and useless for a long while, Self-Care, Iron Will, etc etc." or DH being a bad perk according to you because "it relies on ping"? Are you telling me that being able to talk with teammates makes those "tiles that are actually useless" any more useful?
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Kills makes sense for Killer but escapes for Survivors doesn't really make sense
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BHVR never communicated a clear win condition for both sides.
It also encourages an unhealthy playstyle that is much more unfun and braindead for both sides.
Having 6-8 hook stages but 0 kills can be a good performance (depending on the killer, map, loadouts etc.), it all depends on the perspective - if we see kills as the only goal than this killer has failed, and this also leads to other conclusions: we need to do something about tunneling - nerf it and re-balance the game around this change.3 -
Yeah, I mean if you're going to bury your head in the sand and ignore that it helped Killer's deal with SWF by closing that gap, idk how to help you. All you've been doing is arguing semantics. "It helped against ALL Survivors" Yeah, no #########. They understand that punishing people for playing with their friends is dumb. Killers didn't need help dealing with Solo Q, they never have. It doesn't take a lot of thought to figure out why these changes were made.
Once again, semantics, but I could've been more clear. Both had extremely strong interactions and were overtuned. They are both still good, along with Grim, now that I'm thinking about it.
Excellent strawman. No, that is not even remotely what I said. To reiterate, we've moved too far into the other direction. Most maps have massive dead zones and where there are not dead zones, there are bad tiles that may buy you five seconds if played perfectly. That is not good design. It certainly benefits all Killer players, especially bad ones, but that does not make it good design.
Here's why:
It takes away Survivor skill. It is skillful to know how to run a loop, especially against all 33 (?) Killers in the game. When you fill maps with dead zones and pallets that are "stun or die" like the aforementioned Coldwind middle of cornfield pallets or Haddonfield pallets, that feels bad for Survivors since they have no way to reasonably and effectively express their skill.
It dumbs down the Killer experience. This has been something going on for a while, probably since Overbrine Eruption. The average Killer today knows how to apply regression, and they know how to tunnel. They are not very good at chases and it shows. I believe this is because they didn't need to be for a while, due to how strong slowdown was/is AND due to how new maps are laid out.
This will usually work out fine, but when they come up against some bad RNG, they crumble, hence we get a lot of Killers still thinking that Survivors are too strong and that maps are busted. They've simply never had to learn.
Once again, to reiterate because I know you'll want to try to say it, I do not want to return to infinites. No, I also do not want to return to old Cowshed. I'd rather have something like old Mac maps, sans infinites. Strong tiles, sure, but they are spaced out so they aren't all on top of each other. Skill expression for both Killer and Survivor.
How is communication strong enough to offset the loss of perks? Here's Jim and James.
James: Hey Jim, I'm taking this Trickster to Shack since it's a high-walled structure, I know DS doesn't do anything right now and he's kinda laggy, so you better leave so he doesn't tunnel you.
Jim: Got it, I'll leave so I don't get tunneled out immediately and have the game be functionally over after two minutes, thanks James!
or
Jim: Hey James, if you have to leave Shack, there's just a weird haybale filler in the middle of the field. You know, the one the Killer can just lunge around either side of the "loop".
James: Yeah, I know it, thanks for the heads-up, can you see anything else nearby?
Jim: No, but this Claudette is healing me, so maybe we can try to get a save if you go down in the pallet?
James: Sure, if I make it out of Shack we can try that, that'd be a crazy save!
Now if we were in Solo Q….
That first scenario would probably end in Jim getting tunneled out after James leads the Killer to Shack since Trickster is great at tunneling off of hook.
That second scenario would be almost impossible.
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Mostly.
To some extent, Kills do equal skills. You probably aren't going to 4K or 3K consistently if you are being outclassed, but I do think Hooks should have more to do with it.
Like solidhex said, a 4K 6 is FAR less impressive than a 2K 10.
Escapes as Survivor definitely makes zero sense and I think most people are in agreeance with that.
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Sure,maybe if you play perkless and addonless.
This notion that killers are useless is a relic of a bygone age as well as just a comp problem. My off meta meme perks are banned anyways so maybe I'm just too pro at the game instead of using pain res : p
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Itisskillful to know how to run a loop, especially against all 33 (?) Killers in the game.It's funny how easy to forget that we are already up to 38 killers in the game.
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I lose count sometimes okayyyyy 😂
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how can you even say this in a serious manner?
"most avoidable perk" and it forces killer in a lose-lose situation upon:
- entering locker;
- forcing a grab;
- being used in combo with anti-slug perks (Unbreakable and Plot Twist as the most popular options). This is why you will very often see it combined with those.
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Both of the first two require you to actively chase a recently unhooked target before they can contribute to their team, which, once again, is extremely easy to avoid. This complaint literally boils down to 'why can't I freely tunnel directly into an anti-tunnel perk and not be punished for it!?'
The third point requires extended perk investment and still wastes a ton of survivor time, on top of Plot Twist running into the same issue as the first two.
This perk requires you to not tunnel, simple as. But instead of learning, you decide to do everything the perk is designed to work against and then go 'this isn't fair, why do I get punished for playing into my opponent's strategy?'
So to complain about survivors 'refusing to learn from their mistakes' when you can't even fathom the most basic counterplay to DS is just a terrible case of the pot calling the kettle black.
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Both of the first two require you to actively chase a recently unhooked target before they can contribute to their team, which, once again, is extremely easy to avoid. This complaint literally boils down to 'why can't I freely tunnel directly into an anti-tunnel perk and not be punished for it!?'
??? You are literally always getting the value of DS in this case, no matter if it's directly or indirectly.
Tanking a hit for the other survivor is literally giving them additional health state, wasting killer's time and, if you hop locker mid chase, it's guaranteed for killer to have extra extended chase on that survivor if they don't decide to go for you and "fail for DS", which is literally another lose-lose situation. I beg you to at least try and see deeper macro aspects instead of this narrow vision of tunneling-anti-tunneling.
The third point requires extended perk investment and still wastes a ton of survivor time, on top of Plot Twist running into the same issue as the first two.
being able to not only pick yourself up, but also completely reset in the same process and get 50% haste right after you finish it (with no exhaustion) wastes a ton of survivor time? Wow, just wow.
This perk requires you to not tunnel, simple as. But instead of learning, you decide to do everything the perk is designed to work against and then go 'this isn't fair, why do I get punished for playing into my opponent's strategy?'
ahh yes, the average "just do/don't xy" pub mentality, we truly should get used to this.
So to complain about survivors 'refusing to learn from their mistakes' when you can't even fathom the most basic counterplay to DS is just a terrible case of the pot calling the kettle black.
you are the one failing to understand DS as a whole and trying to pull wider understanding behind not only DS, but anti-tunneling perks in general.
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It’s more complicated than that though. Throughout the years that I’ve been playing, I’ve seen them Nerf the very things that are good counters to the different metas that pop up for killer.
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You are literally always getting the value of DS in this case, no matter if it's directly or indirectly.
So not tunnelling is getting 'value' out of DS? Because if that's what you want to argue, then you're basically arguing that it's problematic that a survivor perk does something that benefits the survivors.
Not every survivor perk has to be a net neutral or benefit to the killer. They can't all be Potential Energies or Invocations.
Tanking a hit for the other survivor is literally giving them additional health state, wasting killer's time
And their own. DS protects you from getting picked up, it doesn't protect you from getting downed and spending a ton of time on the floor being useless to your team.
being able to not only pick yourself up, but also completely reset in the same process and get 50% haste right after you finish it (with no exhaustion) wastes a ton of survivor time? Wow, just wow.
Tell me, how is DS + Plot Twist any different from a survivor just Plot Twisting in a random corner far from the killer -unless- you are chasing them within 60 seconds after they got unhooked?
ahh yes, the average "just do/don't xy" pub mentality, we truly should get used to this.
Does it, or does it not, completely remove any value from DS's stun?
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your just complaining just to complain
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Killer as it sounds KILL survivors, the most effective being to tunnel a survivor out. Survivors on the hand is a bit different since it's a team based game and you can't really count escapes as whole to determine that.
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Escapes as Survivor does make sense but what doesn't make sense is leading the killer on a 5-gen chase only to be camped at the end, die and lose MMR. That doesn't make any sense and in those situations every survivor should gain MMR even the survivor who got camped at the end.
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