General Discussions
General Discussions
Can the devs revert the killer nerfs that forced players to tunnel, camp and slug now?
The survivor mains won and now the devs are forcing killers to play towards survivor fun. Buff for low level killers, buff for SWF nerf for killers m1 killers and killers who don't camp/tunnel/slug.
Comments
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What killer nerfs are you referring to?
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I’ve been saying that they cannot truly buff killers until they do away with tunneling and camping. No matter how many carrots or incentives they try to offer killers not to do those things, there still going to happen. There are far too many of their killer player base that don’t want an actual challenge in this game nor do they care about gaining skill, but rather they just want easy wins. As long as zero skill mechanics that don’t require perks or add-ons to be effective, like tunneling and camping remain in the game, nothing they offer is going to deter it but rather they’re just adding to their ability to tunnel and camp more by giving buffs on top of it.
If they’re going to penalize tunneling and camping and making it no longer effective for the killer to do, then they should also balance that by giving killers buffs. If they’re not gonna penalize tunneling it and make them far less effective then they may as well keep things where they are and give survivors more ways to avoid it.
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I still think they should implement a system by which they fix both at the same time.
Put survivors on a "time out" where they cannot be tunneled by the killer, as in, it is impossible to do so, but at the same time they can't progress the game for that same amount of time, then at the end, just let them be automatically healed. This ensures that when you get a hook, you not only get the pressure of them being on a hook and needed to be saved, but you now know that for some amount of time, that survivor can't do anything useful. Its a win/win. The killer is actively encouraged for hooking them, and actively rewarded for not tunneling them (as in, its basically impossible to do so).
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what i thought would be a good anti tunnel thing would be for the survivor (who got unhooked) to lose collision this way the killer cant take off their basekit bt in an instant but neither can the basekit bt be used agressivly (ie body blocking)
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Sounds like Last Year. when you respawned you would be in a locked room where a teammate would have to come let you out.
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Basically the way i would do it is.
- Killer hooks a survivor
- Survivor is unhooked
- They get this buff that makes it so they can't be hurt by the killer in any way, but they can't do anything like totems or gens or anything. Probably make them even invisible to the killer, no collision, etc.
- After 32 seconds, that buff expires, and the survivor is fully healed and now able to interact with the game.
Basically, these doesn't lose total time for the survivors, because to heal a survivor who is just unhooked, both survivors have to interact for 16 seconds which is a total of 32 seconds . But now, you basically automate that healing interaction, kinda like the medkit addons for example. But during that time, you know the survivor can't be working a gen. So the survivor who unhooks, can just run back to a gen and not "waste" time healing.
So the total time spent off a gen is still the same, but its all put on that 1 survivor, and it is forced. This also prevents them from "tunneling gens" by just ignoring healing for example.
I'd also throw in reworking the AFC mechanic, to just teleport the survivor on the hook to the hook that is closest to the survivor that is furthest away from the killer. Similar to PH/2v8 cages. That way if it happens that survivor should almost always have enough time to unhook them before the killer can come after them again, thus rendering them invulnerable for that 32 seconds.
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Major nerf to m1 killers
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The point is we shouldn't be balancing killers around tunneling being the way they do things. We would then be able to buff said killers to be able to perform well while actually doing the things that are fun.
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The devs refused to acknowledge this with the prior nerfs to sbtfl, regression limits etc. What you're saying is delusional thinking
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Hooks > Kills is more healthy for the game hopefully they start to balance around it
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It's not delusional thinking and what @Reinami said is correct. M1 Killers cannot be properly buffed while tunnelling and camping are viable gameplay strategies. When I did my experiment to note the incidence of tunnelling it also showed that Killers (overall) were somewhat underperforming for the 60% kill rate if they didn't tunnel but that was masked by how the Killers that tunnelled were massively over performing. There was a significant delta in win rates between tunnelling Killers and Killers that spread hooks. Tunnelling is an overpowered strategy.
It was the same thing with pre 6.1 Dead Hard. It was so massively overpowered that many aspects of Survivor couldn't be buffed until Dead Hard was nerfed. Now many of the Killers aren't getting buffs that would make them more fun because someone can take buffs that are designed to help the effectiveness of Killers that don't tunnel and use them to make tunnelling even more oppressive.
For specific Killers to get buffs that they need tunnelling has to go.
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I'm a huge fan of this idea and have been preaching it for quite some time. The Survivor could still do everything else except Gens I imagine? That'd be fine tbh.
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There are no killer nerfs that "forced" players to tunnel, camp or slug. Killers have seen a ton of buffs, where survivors have mostly seen nerfs.
In fact, I've grown to have the opinion that a lot of killers were MMR boosted because they so heavily relied on slugging, camping and tunnelling to the point that they now have to as it's the only skill they know.
Punishing that behaviour will force those killers to lose MMR and actually play against survivors in their skill range.
And yes, I am fully serious. No killer that is at my level of game knowledge will fall for Deception more than once. If they fall for it in the first place. You know what ALL killers I face that rely heavily on slugging and tunnelling have in common? They fall for Deception 5+ times.Survivors dont have ways to cheese their MMR much. They will almost always be at a level that they face killers that they can handle. But killers have many ways to cheese their MMR. From preventing hatch escapes in a 2v1. To relying on the fact that soloq cant do much against a tunnelling killer and making matches infinitely easier.
Killer mains who claim they need to tunnel and slug need to buckle up and accept that they have relied on cheese methods to boost their MMR, and are now mad that their toys are being taken away and are forced to lose against survivors they never should have been facing in the first place.
I am only kinda sad for Trapper mains, as his kit only really works because its camp focussed.15 -
Nothing like this ever happened.
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I have no idea what you're smoking… basekit BT, OTR, sabo speed buff, 70 second hooks, anti camp timer, removed hook grabs, flashlight grace period, gen kick limit, reassurance, shoulder, hud activity, unhook iframes, uncounterable flashbangs, etc. Yeah, survivors seem to have it soo bad lol.
Meanwhile every good killer gen slowdown perk has seem some kind of nerf - pop, pain res, grim, deadlock, dms, brine, ruin, etc. I will say the game is killer sided in low/mid MMR, but when you start going against really good survivors there's literally no time to make mistakes. This is where you need to tunnel and slug, especially when not playing killers like blight/nurse. 90% of the survivor mains on this forum have no idea what it means to play killer at top mmr and it shows.
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If, during public matches, you find you need to tunnel and camp to have a chance you're most assuredly not at top MMR.
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Source: guy who's never played trapper, ghost or pig in top MMR. Try making an actual argument next time.
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In the long term, this is a good thing. It will allow the devs to actually see how well certain killers perform and update them accordingly
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In the last year the only real nerfs killer has had to hooks and tunneling is Shoulder the Burden and +10 seconds on hook timers. Those two helped push us toward this meta a bit, but I also think the meta is just evolving on its own as well.
Basekit BT, new OTR, no unhook grabs, etc, has been in the game since summer 2021, it's been a long time now. I don't think those are the reason why the slug meta is emerging now. I think this is an arms race where very good survivors are stacking second chances and are hard to catch, while very good killers are slugging more and more often to build pressure and circumvent these second chances.
Very curiuos to see how BHVR plans to address this meta.
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It seems you have no idea how top MMR works when there is a soft cap and are instead just throwing out random weak Killers to deflect from the point you're not at top MMR.
Let's say top MMR would be around 2100+. It doesn't matter which Killer you use; the only thing using a stronger Killer does is make getting there easier. The soft cap is reportedly at either 1400 or 1600 MMR and the number of players at that MMR would vastly outnumber the number at 2100+. That was already seen when Dowsey had 45+ minute queues when MMR was stricter as there simply weren't enough people at his level to match him with. The current matchmaking system favours speed over strict matches
The chance a 1600+ MMR player will win against a 2100+ MMR player is less than one in one hundred. There is no way someone who is that much better than their opponents can't spread hooks and still win most of the time and there is no way someone who feels so much pressure in public matches they think they have to tunnel is at top MMR.
The only thing you've proven is how wrong your argument actually is and how you are most definitely not anywhere near top MMR.
As a side note, you didn't even get Wraith's name correct when listing low powered Killers (you said ghost). That's not a mistake I would expect someone who actually does have the experience needed to be top MMR in DbD would do.
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If Hens can get a high kill rate without camping/slugging/tunnelling while playing as not even trapper, ghost or pig but PURELY M1 killer without any powers, then so, theoretically, can you.
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There is no such thing as skill in DbD. Only the amount of hours people waste in the game. If a game wants you to exchange your social life and opportunity to do something actually useful on memorizing map layouts and developing a Carpal tunnel syndrome, that's not a good sign.
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Hey, leave pig out of this.
No really. She can perform very well at higher level with the correct strategies and loadout. No need to support the "pig is so weak" - train.
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You were told once already and rejected it then I see no reason to answer that for you now.
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I was asking OP, since I wanted to confirm which of the few various things I've seen floating about. I have opinions on those, obviously, but to be fair it could be something new.
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Agreed! Let's nerf pig! XD (joking, joking, for the love of God, joking)
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Even if they reverted all the nerfs thats not even gonna fix all the problems because survivors have gotten so many second chances, STB, and BS like uncounterable flashbangs that it is still going to be super unfun to play.
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🔥🐽🔥
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if a very skilled player can have 80%+ soloQ escape rate by actually playing as part of the team, so can you
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A perkless Trapper destroyed a sweaty SWF team
Yes, the game is killer sided. Its all about skill
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Thing about that is survivors will get themselves caught again by pure happenstance and call it tunneling.
People get themselves caught again against my ghostface all the time and start spouting off about tunneling in egc when it was really just a lack of situational awareness or pure bad luck. And you have to take whatever you can get on a killer as painfully weak as Ghostface or you'll lose.
Malicious tunnel-vision on somebody who just got unhooked - I can understand wanting to prevent that, but you can't act like getting caught again out of happenstance/bad luck is the same thing as malicious tunnel-vision. At what point does personal responsibility become a factor in the equation (because I thought this was supposed to be a game, not a ride)?
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Hate to say, but nobody forced you to play in a particular way. Even if you believed it was the only way you can.
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No no no more she's had enough....
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When I recorded a bunch of games and took a look at the incidence of hard tunnelling it was sitting at 26%. One in four games where it's obvious the Killer is tunnelling is not just a happenstance.
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And it counts as "hard tunneling" in your own opinion how? I ask because it seems you're saying your own experience represents the game as a whole. Getting tunneled sucks, but its avoidable by not going for unsafe saves. I play SoloQ and only deal with tunneling when my team mates go for saves they shouldn't. Though I'm not at higher MMR, so maybe its different at higher levels.
That being said, it is a problematic strategy for the games sustainability - as well as camping which you could argue is the same thing. We honestly don't know what the changes to deal with these "strategies" will be, but things will definitely get worse before they get better. You'd have to punish tunneling/camping, then figure which killers still perform well and which do not to get a proper idea of how to balance them into the current state of the game. I'm okay with that happening but I think there needs to be more communication from BHVR about how the problem is being handled.
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is that legit even possible? i can't go 5 games without someone dooming the match through DCs/suicides
who have a 80% excape rate as solo q?
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RoxannaGV, former community manager of DbDL has managed it. Also, KnightLight, Zaka and Xeno are having pretty good results on-stream too
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So your argument is that because of the pro players that are making a living by playing this game, with 10.000 or more hours are able to do stuff, us casual players should be able to play as well as they do? - That is probably the worst argument in history
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Without exception, the bill has always been passed to the survivors. Every discussion about camping/tunnelling/slugging has always been ground to a halt on this argument about how killers -need- to camp/tunnel/slug in order to have a chance at winning. Without end, killer competence has been left out of the equation.
We can't keep holding off on fixing these gameplay issues because 'it's impossible to win' when it's evidently very much possible to win. And no, what Hens did, did not set any kind of standard skill requirement. It's not like he barely eked out the desired 60% kill rate while playing his hardest, he got well over that, without using killer powers.
It is not unreasonable, after years of these crutches being in the game and shaping killer perception around the game, to just for once, tell killers to try harder.
You don't need to be a pro player because you don't need to hit 90% kill rate.
You don't need to be a pro player because you don't need to play without killer powers.
You just need to try.
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When i play, i see a HUGE difference if its a low mobility killers and high mobility killers.
An example, i was playing trapper and i went up against a team that had 3x BNP + Map offering, all using hyperfocus + stakeout. on my 2nd hook they had 3 gens done. I havent played for a while so im a bit rusty, sure.. but.. i do have around 1900 hours, thats not much, but i know the game. - the only way i could get a kill, was to camp a guy on the ground… just to get 1 kill (needless to say i got trash talked in the endgame chat).
If i had been playing a high mobility killer, the game would probably have turned out a lot different. And i think that is the root of the "balancing problem" with dbd… because gen speed stays the same (with the same items/perks), no matter if the killer use 4 seconds or 12 seconds to get to a gen and chase time are also much different. So the time wasted for the low mobility killers EACH game is much bigger, and time is the most important resource for killers.so messing around with gen regression or gen time to fix this will only end up with either buffing both high mobility killers (who dont need a buff) as well as low mobility killers or nerf high mobility killers as well as low mobility killers (who dont need a nerf).
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That would make a whole bunch of surv perks (related to healing & hooks & injured states) so niche that it makes no sense to equip them, resulting in even more perks being obsolete. It also reduces surv-interaction and robs the unhooked surv of agency forcing them to twiddle their thumbs and basically go afk for a good chunk of time. Healing asap after unhook isn't even always the right play, thus taking that choice away from survs further reduces their range of plays and choices.
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alright, let's explain things in the most transparent way possible.
Hens has been practising the game excessively hard and has a lot of hours in it, meaning he mastered so many macro and micro aspects of the game.
So how does he manage to have solid amount of wins without tunneling, slugging and camping? Answer is simple, his skill made him able to notice much more mistakes made by average survivor player than your usual killer player does, and thus he takes advantage of almost all those mistakes. As a result, he doesn't need to force an early 3v1, slug or camp because average survs already make enough mistakes that manage to make up for him handicapping himself.
Now, since you are expecting average killer to learn the game as much as Hens learned in order to take advantage of as many survivor mistakes as possible, why don't we try to make this a vice versa situation?
Tunneling, camping and slugging are severely punished in high skill levels and you actually need to think when you should even attempt trying those (quite often it will be a no-call), why does average survivor player not even attempt to learn how to counter those? Why is only killer expected to learn to play the game on a top tier level so that they don't have to tunnel, camp and slug in order to win against average pub opponents? Why do survivors somehow not need to improve? I'm genuinely curious because i'm seeing this "my opponent should learn to play the game at top level in order for me to have more fun while they handicap themselves while i shouldn't work on improving at all" pattern way too often. There are 2 sides in this PvP game, not just one.
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Hens has been practising the game excessively hard and has a lot of hours in it, meaning he mastered so many macro and micro aspects of the game.
I find it ironic that the guy that claims survivors refuse to improve is willing to dismiss Hens because 'he's too skilled'.
Now, since you are expecting average killer to learn the game as much as Hens learned in order to take advantage of as many survivor mistakes as possible, why don't we try to make this a vice versa situation?
Wrong.
Because remember, Hens didn't only go well over the balancing benchmark by getting an excessively high killrate/winrate, he also didn't use any killer powers, which are two colossal steps you don't have to match him on.
why does average survivor player not even attempt to learn how to counter those?
These counters being 'genrush' (but not actually genrush because that's unfair to killer), 'swiffer' (But not actually swiffer because that's unfair to killer) and 'loop killer for 5 gens'.
Why is only killer expected to learn to play the game on a top tier level so that they don't have to tunnel, camp and slug in order to win against average pub opponents?
Again, this 'top tier' level you're talking about doesn't net you a balanced experience, it nets you a 90% winrate with an arm tied behind your back. If you equate that with 'what is needed to win against pub opponents', then that speaks volumes about what your balancing benchmark is.
You were accusing others of refusing to improve, but you balk at the idea of having to play without these crutches because of a dogmatic belief that killer is unplayable without tunnelling/camping/slugging, to the point where you won't even try. And the moment someone sets before you the possibility that -you- may need to improve for once, it's anchors out.
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No, the game is SWF sided at high MMR. And wdym no mistakes? Killers can literally make mistakes for 8 minutes on end and still get a 4k. Let alone that a LOT of mistakes barely have any impact. Swung at a window? Sure, you have a recovery period, but in terms of time-loss, it might actually gain you time because the survivor stuck around the same tile instead of being able to run towards killershack if you walked around. Killers can afford to make quite a few mistakes as their rewards outweigh most common mistakes made. You fail a 50/50 2 times in a row? You only add like 10 seconds at best to a chase. You can win a 50/50 twice in a row soon after too, turning a would be 60 second chase into a 10 second chase. The only times mistakes will be more punishing than rewarding, is if you vault the window from the top floor of Midwich as an example instead of picking up the body and now you have to waste 15 seconds just walking around or decide to just leave that survivor slugged for the time being.
And I main both killer and survivor, and play on high mmr on both. And sure, while my doc might average a 2.7k where if I play Nurse I average a 3.4k. It still means the vast majority of games, I win. No slugging, no tunnelling and no camping untill there are like 2 gens remaining with all 4 survivors alive, and even then, depends on what the map offers me. Because if I played Doc on The Game, you can bet your ass that the entire map is a deadzone against Doc if no one is dead yet. You kinda WANT teammates to be dead, because then it means you still have a significant enough amount of pallets left.
So no, I would say 90% of killers facing high mmr survivors actually have been artificially boosted by slugging and tunnelling at 5 gens, and it shows.0 -
I find it ironic that the guy that claims survivors refuse to improve is willing to dismiss Hens because 'he's too skilled'.
who exactly is dismissing Hens here? He is showing how awful MMR system is and how exactly am i dismissing that?
Wrong.
Because remember, Hens didn't only go well over the balancing benchmark by getting an excessively high killrate/winrate, he also didn't use any killer powers, which are two colossal steps you don't have to match him on.
V1rtual, a player for team Oracle, managed to get ~30 winstreak by playing M1 only perkless Trapper. Trapper gigabroken confirmed? Because that's what you are making it literally sound like.
These counters being 'genrush' (but not actually genrush because that's unfair to killer), 'swiffer' (But not actually swiffer because that's unfair to killer) and 'loop killer for 5 gens'.
tunneling counters:
- anti-tunneling perks;
- chase skills;
- teammates taking hits for you;
- greeding survivor potentially about to be target for tunneling on hook;
- stealthing as a survivor on death hook and avoiding unsafe unhooks yourself
slugging counters:
- anti-slugging perks
- avoiding grouping up as slugs and trying to spread as much as possible
camping counters:
- pressuring gens;
- trading hooks;
- anti-camping perks;
- taking hits in endgame.
But "there is no counter to those!!!".
Again, this 'top tier' level you're talking about doesn't net you a balanced experience, it nets you a 90% winrate with an arm tied behind your back. If you equate that with 'what is needed to win against pub opponents', then that speaks volumes about what your balancing benchmark is.
if League of Legends challenger player plays D-tier champ in plat-emerald ranked matches, gets counterpicked every single match and still has 90% winrate, what does it mean? That champ is broken? League of Legends is unbalanced? Because you'd quite likely understand the thing that way and that speaks enough about your balancing benchmark and how you are paying 0 attention to matchmaking quality.
You were accusing others of refusing to improve, but you balk at the idea of having to play without these crutches because of a dogmatic belief that killer is unplayable without tunnelling/camping/slugging, to the point where you won't even try. And the moment someone sets before you the possibility that -you- may need to improve for once, it's anchors out.
i am the one not calling survivors unskilled when they stealth.
I am the one not calling survivors unskilled when they split on gens early.
You are the one calling killers unskilled when they camp a hook that is being swarmed by other teammates.
You are the one considering killers unskilled when they slug in order to avoid a flashbang/flashlight/pallet save in the open.
You are the one considering killers unskilled when they win first chase very fast and then decide to tunnel that survivor out.
But always, and always, when survivors fail to play the way they should, problem is in...game balance?
Let's put that "calling about improving" ball down, because in my average match i still manage to have decent winrate without tunneling and camping and only slug while in power to chain hits with Oni.Should other people follow my example? Why should they? If your opponent plays optimally, why shouldn't you?
So at this moment, dropping a crutches + skill issue tag on using strats given to you in the game at the times and places where it's beneficial is not unskilled, it's smart.
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V1rtual, a player for team Oracle, managed to get ~30 winstreak by playing M1 only perkless Trapper. Trapper gigabroken confirmed? Because that's what you are making it literally sound like.
I'm not saying they're broken. YOU are.
You, and so many other forum killers have been adamant that killer is unplayable without camping tunnelling and slugging, despite more competent players than you showing that it's not just playable, but strong. That you don't -need- any of these tactics that you keep insisting on.
And what's even more insulting?
i still manage to have decent winrate without tunneling and camping and only slug while in power to chain hits with Oni.
You even admit that you do not need this! You admit that you're doing perfectly fine without tunnelling, camping and slugging, so my question to you is:
Why even care about these announced changes?
Why is it that every time there's any kind of discussion about fixing these problems, you and people like you come in to balk and protest, when by your own admission, you don't need these strategies?
Because if that's true, these changes won't negatively impact you. That 'decent winrate' you manage without camping, tunnelling and slugging? That'll continue. That won't change. So why the constant protests?
Because to me, it sounds like you're going 'I'm doing fine, I'm doing well, but I want to reserve the right to win even more and ruin the game for others. My minor concerns are more important than the major problems that the other side has been dealing with for almost a decade now'.
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You can't. You'll just be stacking more advantages for good survivors to abuse, while killers get punished. What more could they even do that's within reason? It'll be "Now, the anti-camp meter goes up within 32 meters, and doesn't slow down when other survivors are near." or "The survivor has 20 seconds of Endurance and 20% bonus speed when unhooked." These devs are incapable of giving killers buffs to counter stuff like that. Any time they've even wanted to, survivors said, "These killers are downing toooo fast," and so the decent chase powers get nerfed. Or, "Pallets are too weak and far between," and so more long side/god pallets get made, negating any remaining decent chase powers. Or, "This just speed is juuuust right," as they're literally flying, and making quick downs a necessity but also inadequate.
Killers used to be stronger before, and good players were fine. Peak Wraith, peak Pinhead, peak Nemesis, peak Skull Merchant (if that was ever a thing), peak Freddy (same thing), etc. But then they decided, "These killers aren't easy enough to beat. We need baby survivors to be able to beat them too." And so now they can, through gen speed, Terminator mode perks, and mismatches alone. There's no skill. That will continue, because for every minor killer buff, or rework, survivors expect 2 major buffs in exchange, and they get it every time. Look at Freddy. Clocks still grant immunity to sleep, now usable by anyone at any location, and his dream pallets (only 7 max for some reason) can be seen and destroyed by awake survivors, even worse than before.
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Wouldn't that just be a free escape at the end?
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Wouldn't that just be a free escape at the end?
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