https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3888814#Comment_3888814
why wouldn't I go after the person who already has a hook state?
Well, with anti-tunnel, you will have a reason.
General Discussions
General Discussions
yay guys, more anti-killer changes coming soon
Comments
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Why should survs always get a 100% safe unhook?
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Why should Killers get a free down?
Killers should be incentivized to go for other people, but that hasn't worked, so they are finally doing something.
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I dont get why survivors need their hands held so much.
Just look at how many second chance perks survivors have. It's laughable and completly outrageous that people think thats STILL not enough. @danielmaster87 is right. Survivors are so incredibly ungrateful towards the devs. Basekit BT + haste off hook, an enormouse number of OP second chances, removal of hook grabs, anti camp and so much more. Not one shred of gratitude. It is never enough no matter how much the devs give to survivors.
Anytime the devs throw killers some crumbs people come out of the woodwork and completely lose their minds. "AHHHHH this game is so killer sided. The devs never give survivors anything". Blah blah blah blah blah.
Im sorry but, it is getting asinine and frustrating.-8 -
What OP second chances are you referring to?
That's a genuine question, I'm actually not building to anything. I just see the term "second chances" thrown out a lot and I've realised that if I were to define second chance perks there'd probably only be one in the game currently, so I'm trying to figure out what people typically mean there.
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No worries, you'll figure it out eventually with more experience. Great way to essentially force the killer into having one less viable perk in the match.
One of the problems we have at the moment are players who go up against a particular playstyle and refuse to adapt to counter it - expecting to play how they always play every time to always work for them then cry foul when throwing themselves at a wall didn't work. That goes for both sides. Survivors playing a particular way - the killer needs to adjust accordingly. Killer playing a certsin way, the survivors need to adjust accordingly. If PR is being run, and survivors keep throwing themselves at a center gen while its constantly getting nuked to 0% are likely going to fail. That doesn't mean PR is OP, that means the survivors did not bother to counter it. A problematic hex totem? Dont pretend it doesn't exist, find it and destroy it. Ghostface in the match? Dont just keep your heads down and staring at the gen - keep a keen eye out and have one survivor dedicated to keeping tabs on him and revealing him. The matches success is always about adaptability. You're welcome to watch tournaments of some of the best players - they all play VERY differently depending who the killer is and what he's running. While the below isn't a tournament, it showcases how a professional team faced off against a ghostie.
You'll notice immediately that they don't play their normal routine, they specifically changed their gameplay to counter the ghostie. Playing vs PR is no different. Adapt or face a rough match. The fact that such a statement is downvoted just shows how much players really don't want to make the effort to counter anything. I can promise yall that starting to actually put effort into your matches and adapting to what challenges come will make for a much more positive experience for you. Just try it. Instead of just holding m1 on a gen the entire match expecting success, consider what is going on around you and how you can counter it. Survivors have all the tools in the world to overcome the killer. That's the challenge - that's the fun. It's a far more dynamic experience.
Bear in mind, the game is balanced around SWF, so if you solo queue, it will be a lot more challenging. You'll essentially need to bring your A game and be able to hold your own. You'll want to learn how to efficiently loop. You never know how experience your teammates are, so you'll probably need to do the countering all by yourself. If you see no one is countering, then you'll need to. If they are countering, then you have room to do gens and such. What's rough is when you're countering but others don't realize you are and can ruin it. Thats a problem with solo queue - it's innately weaker than swf. Sadly, the game just isnt balanced around solo queue, so it'll be harder to succeed. Communication with teammates is key, so hopefully we have some sort of way to do so in the future. Solo queue needs some love.
Post edited by RpTheHotrod on-4 -
Often times, when to unhook is not really up to Survivors. Killers will often patrol hooks, meaning that no matter when an unhook happens, the Killer will be close by.
Likewise, basekit Endurance only means you can't get turbo farmed like the old days. It does still disable DH, OTR etc etc from working when the Killer hits you off of hook.
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DS, OTR, STB mostly. There are more than that but those 3 are downright offensive. People call them anti tunnel second chance perks but thats not really what they are at all. An anti tunnel perk would activate only if you are hooked consecutively. Thats not what these perks do. DS and OTR have timers. If the killer is playing really well, it is entirely within the realm of possibility that another teammate can get hooked, and the person with DS for example gets chased again for sticking around or trying to unhook, downed and then the killer is punished because they are playing well. They didnt tunnel. This kind of thing happens all the time.
When every survivor in the match is running not just one second chance but many it becomes extremely frustrating to play against
Also, its not like I have a problem with every second chance perk either. Some of them are perfectly fine IMO like DH and SB for example (that is not even close to a comprehensive list)-5 -
As someone with that all elusive "more experience", the only time I have ever seen that employed was during scrims and "competitive" matches.
I cannot recall ever having seen that strategy employed to ANY success in pubs.
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I see.
The reason I wouldn't have considered those myself is that "second chance" implies they simply give you the option to bail out of a lost chase, which these perks don't- they don't undo your mistake, they punish the killer acting in a specific way.
None of them are OP either way, of course, but I was mostly wanting to know your definition.
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any perk that give the survivor another chance are second chance perks. STB is a second chance because it allows the trading of a hook state from a stronger survivor to a weaker one. The stronger survivor is not necessarily the best target to chase if you have the option to chase a weaker survivor. There are A LOT of second chance perks and most of them arent even all that bad to deal with. Heck, even the ones that are meta wouldnt even be that bad if it were just one person with one of them. Instead though you end up seeing all the survivors have at least 1 and stacking them has a compounding effect on how difficult a match can potentially be for the killer.
Out of curiosity, what definition do you use for second chance perks? Maybe my definition is not completely right, and i'd like to compare.-5 -
My definition would be that it allows survivors to undo a mistake or extend a chase that should've been lost- an actual second chance at doing something so you can do it better the next time.
By that definition, the only second chance perk I can think of is Dead Hard. Maybe Deliverance too? But that's getting a little abstract with it.
DS, OTR, StB- none of those revolve around undoing mistakes or extending a chase when it would otherwise be lost. They're insurance perks against specific actions the killer could take, and don't work outside of those actions. The same goes for Unbreakable, which sometimes gets called a second chance perk.
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I dont think my difinition is necessesarily wrong but I also dont think yours broadly is really wrong either.
Maybe second chance perk should be treated as a larger term and then you have the perks that fall under it sorted into groups according to the type of second chance effect they apply? In general I think this is more of a useful system to adopt because rather than using a term like second chance where many many perks can fall under it, you can say I dont like these specific kinds of second chances or go even more specific and say I dont like these specific perks (which people already do get that specific). So, less generalization.-1 -
I think using the term "Insurance perk" is best for stuff like DS/OTR/StB/UB and such. That more accurately conveys that they're a shield against specific types of gameplay, rather than being generic aids to help mitigate the effects of your own mistakes, from the survivor perspective.
Or just talking about the specific perks you dislike, where appropriate. That works too.
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I love me some forum posters that will talk about how killers need to get skilled and get some gamesense but in the same breath defend Windows of Noobertunity to the death despite it literally playing the game for survivors
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To be fair, WoO doesn't do much for SWF. It does a lot to help Solo Q though, who may not know where their teammates have decided to drop pallets.
Unless you are upset about not being able to punch down on Solo Q anymore, WoO is not the right thing to blame.
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Some of you don't get how significant and game changing is making the survivors spawn within 12 meters each other all the time.
That change is an indirect buff to lethal pursuer, which is already a very good perk for pressure in early game, but also make corrupt intervention a bit less meta.
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I don’t even use this perk, but the reason people defend it is because it helps solo que since you can’t tell what pallets are available when it’s your turn to get chased. It doesn’t play the game for you. You still need to do well in chase
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Oh boy, I have a treasure map! I'm rich!
Except I'm not, because I'm not actually going to get the treasure.
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Sounds like the players should develop gamesense and understand where the chases are happening instead of crutching on a perk that plays the game for them
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So, I never said or implied that PR was impossible to counter. In fact, the counter is nearly trivially easy, because you just let go as the killer hooks and then get back on the gen after it explodes. That also counters DMS.
You don't need a literal comp level team with coordination to do so, and I stand by the facts that I gave that 99 ing a gen as a "counter" is just the worst play in basically every scenario.
But the fact that you have to go back to a video from November 2022 says a lot. They knew the killer up front. They knew the map up front. They had an entire slew of perks that have since been nerfed. Dead hard, prove, distortion to name a few. Most of the tiles, tile logic, and pallets on those maps have also since been nerfed. You gonna go back to 2016 and claim that insta completing gens with BNP or perma sabo is still a viable strat?
Does your "people just don't want to learn to counter" apply to everyone? Prove got nerfed because people didn't want to learn to pressure more than one survivor. Distortion got nerfed because people can't use game sense, context, scratch marks, and every other cue to find survivors. Maps and pallets got nerfed because people can't learn to use bloodlust correctly, loop tiles properly, or zone survivors.
I'm not sure where you got on this tangent, but this doesn't have anything to do with pain res anymore.
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Are you really arguing killer players get handheld more than survivors? That's quite a take there
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Not entirely sure how they are supposed to do that when they have no information.
You are running blind in Solo Q. It seems I have my answer though, you do resent not being able to steamroll Solos.
Post edited by Pulsar on11 -
Your concept is okay, your example is not.
It really goes against your argument.
You're welcome to watch tournaments of some of the best players - they all play VERY differently depending who the killer is and what he's running. While the below isn't a tournament, it showcases how a professional team faced off against a ghostie.In these matches, and comp in general, survivors know the killer and map they will have. Not only are the survivors in comms, they can set up their strategy for how to play before the start of the match. 'Pro teams' remove the elem
ent you are talking about - adjusting your playstyle during a match. Survivor teams are able to plan out exactly what they are going to do, where they are going to attack, and how they are going to play because they know everything ahead of time. They also only need to plan for a few addons as those are extremely limited.Its one of the primary reasons looking to comp is such a bad example for discussing DbD pub games (I say this as a person who watches a lot comp and really enjoys it for what it is).
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How would you say survivors are getting their hands held?
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How on earth do you get that from "Does your 'people just don't want to learn to counter' apply to everyone?"
I won't deny that players on both sides have a problem of not adapting at times. But this whole conversation started by someone saying to 99 a 6th gen to avoid pain res. That's just plain not it, completely unrealistic take.
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ah yes just like when old eruption was a thing, the common counter killers players suggested was “develop game sense of when someone was gonna go down”. Thats so helpful
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Nnnno?
DS only activates after an unhook, only for 60 seconds, and only if you don't do anything to progress the game in that time. That isn't a perk that bails you out of making a mistake, it's a perk that exists to protect you if the killer makes the specific decision to chase you immediately after unhook.
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Yep and that was stupid lol
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That was a whole article to basically say stop nerfing killers and nerf survivors instead??? I'm not a great killer I admit that but I win at least 70 percent of my killer matches with fair gameplay rarely do I slug but when I do it's in last ditch effort to keep survivors on their toes at the exit gates. When I play survivor there's 3 gameplays I face, 1 slugging all 4 survivors off the bat, 2 tic tac toe killer with a 3 gen, and lastly the tunneler strategy. I don't mind that they are all common moves cause they are effective if you wanna win but to make it all there is in DBD is hurting the game more than anything and with the broken MMR new players quit before even starting cause the painful startoff experience and makes it so no new blood is added to the pool
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the problem is that the entire system is broken and flawed, and they dont have the guts to do an overhaul. And as long as the core game remains broken, nothing they'll do will fix it
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4 seconds of aura reveal, done.
Oops, Killer will still tunnel because tunneling is absurdly strong and extremely difficult to counter.
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If you're not seeing it in your matches, then you're likely not in the mmr where people are taking advantage of the hard counter. You'd greatly benefit your team if you'd set up and run the counter yourself, though if you're not in a swf, the others may not realize what you're doing and accidentally sabotage the team allowing PR to affect vital gens again. One of the problems with solo queue is a lack of communication which is something I feel most of us wants to have addressed. I know they refuse to do voice chat, but I'd love to see some pre-made text prompts you can do (ie hit chat key, then 1 is gen related which then prompts other choices such as finish gen, don't finish gen, I'm doing gen, etc...) for example, you could hit V (for chat) 1 1 when aiming at a gen and it'll say Finish that gen. Or V 1 2 for don't finish that gen. Etc...
The game is balanced around SWFs, they generally innately have communication. Adding a chat kind of pre-made comms would allow people to communicate in a limited form to/from solo queue players. This would end up making survivors stronger than they already are, so BHVR would have to keep an eye on how it affects killer gameplay. I have a feeling a lot of killer kills are due to solo queue kills with their inability to properly interact with the team in a way the game is balanced around (SWF).
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Just wait until you start playing vs survivors who you cant end a chase in 5 seconds against. Once survivors know how to loop you and how to deal with you, if they are bring the meta perks you are going to struggle hard.
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Look, I'm not trying to sound insulting, but I'd just suggest you'd read how PR works before discussing further. You're going off a misunderstanding of how PR works. Letting go of the gen just before they get hooked doesn't counter the perk at all, it still loses its progress. All Letting go does is avoid a particular perk combo which locks the gen, but that's an entirely different topic.
You're correct you don't need a comp level team. You're reinforcing what I'm saying here. I'm saying that's simply how to counter PR. Anyone can do it, you just need enough experience to know what the counter is and how to use it. Many people cry foul saying PR is overpowered. Thats just a lack of experience. I'm just saying what the counter is so people learn more and have improved survivor matches. PR isn't a big deal and it's easy to invalidate it. DBD has a LOOOOOT of stuff to learn - it isn't newcomers friendly due to so many variables being in the game. You got core mechanics, tons of perks, tons of killers each with their own counter - even people with 10,000+ hours still learn new stuff. The entire game is about getting more experienced and learning how to effectively counter your opponent. Every single one of us needs more experience, and as we gain that experience, we become better players. I'm not saying you're a newbie, for example. I'm sure you've played a while. I'm just saying after more experience, you'll come to realize PR does have a hard counter and utilizing it will trivialize its presence in the match. Learning new things is a good thing. Heck, I'm 2,000 hours in and I STILL learn things. Thats part of the process, not an insult.
The video could be 5 years old or 5 days old - doesn't matter. The point of the video is experienced players don't just hold m1 on a gen. I'm just showing that even to the most experienced players, adapting to the match is the key to success. PR is something to adapt to. If you do, you trivialize it. You're accusing me of not knowing what I'm talking about, so I'm just pointing you to a video that even the most experienced players in the game have to adapt to what comes at them. As fornyou bringing up BNP and sabotage, now you're just going way off topic trying to change the subject.
As for your '"people don't want to learn to counter" apply to everyone" question, I'm having a hard time believing you're genuinely asking this question, but I'll humor you. Naturally it doesn't apply to people actually adapting and countering. I'm referring to people who just want to hold m1 on gens and get upset when something easily countered prevents them from continuing from just holding m1 all match.
It's not a difficult concept: succeeding in DBD and becoming a better player is all about gaining experience and utilizing that experience to counter and overcome challenges that impede your progress. The fact that you refute this, well, I don't know what to say other than what I said previously...just keep playing and once you get more experience, you'll start understanding that counters exist and utilizing them will be a springboard towards more successful matches.
You can see there's an issue of people not wanting to adept with downvotes over the statement that the game requires people to learn and adapt to challenges. A lot of people don't want that (as you can clearly see from the votes). They just want a streamlined path of success. In DBD, it's just not going to cut it regardless of how much they want to downvote the idea of overcoming challenges. We have literally had people post that killers are OP because survivors can't outrun the killer. Is that the case? Of course not - they just need more experience to start learning how looping works, the difference between slow/medium/fast vaults, and so on. With PR (or any perk for that matter), it's no different. There are counters, and it all comes down to learning how to deal with them. Occasionally we will have a problematic perk that definitely needs rebalanced, but PR is one of those basic learning experiences to put under your belt. Bam, now you're even better equipped to be a rockstar survivor completely invalidating PR for your team. Thats strength! The alternative is just bashing your head on that vital gens in the center that is constantly getting blown to pieces by PR then being stressed out over it declaring the perk is broken. Thats just not realistic.
Edit- typo fixin'
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We really think your missing how this (getting and keeping a gen high enough to counter pain res) doesn't really work well in like 90% of matches.
Pain res hits the highest progressed gen on (a survivors first) scourge hook right? So for your "counter" (going to an off gen and 99 it) to work Survivors gotta keep an out of the way gen high enough that it would be the target (which would likely be 99 so others could finish gens with no risk right?) then have to pretty much keep it up if/when it loses progress, effectively needing a babysitter and consistent work whenever it regresses (after all, if it gets a drive by kick or something and you didn't fix it this "counter" won't work)…which makes it kinda worse in normal games cause thats kinda turning it into a 3v1 with 4 survivors alive until the 3 other survivors have proced pain res via getting hooked. That out of the way gen is eating the regression limit instead of a needed gen yet is still repeatedly being worked on while either your team waits (SWF coordination) or is doing their own thing (solo chaos) and likely at risk of dying due to the killer being unlikely to just be doing nothing. That's not very effective or efficient for the survivors all just to "counter" one perk to our minds.
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Look, I'm not trying to sound insulting
Yeah, I kinda think you are, but here's my final thoughts on this matter:
Regarding Pain Res: both of us are saying that the perk is going to take it's chunk of the generator, no matter what you do. I'm saying you should go about your business, stop the gen regressing immediately, and as a by-product you also have a gen that gets hit by a guaranteed less than 20% because you're still working on it. Your argument is that, somehow, going out of your way to expend effort on a 6th gen in a corner, which is going to get hit by the maximum 20% chunk, and then regress further because you're doing something else is somehow the better option? You either honestly believe this and are refusing to admit you could be wrong, or you're lying and pulling a "hello, fellow survivor mains".
Here's what I'm talking about with this question:
Does your 'people just don't want to learn to counter' apply to everyone?"
When I say that I'm considering meta shifts and how people had to change their play styles. When Dead Hard got nerfed, sure, some people wanted DH for distance back, and people had to adjust, but after a bit of learning period (month or two), people either kept using the perk in a different way, or switched to something else. That's adapting. The same thing happened with DS in 6.1, Circle of Healing and medkit nerf completely shifted the entire game's meta, and arguably MfT's nerf did also (although people just basically went back to exhaustion). Largely, people adapted, and I'd say the people who haven't, and are still clamoring occasionally for those nerfs to be reverted, are a very small minority. Everyone else has adapted and moved on.
Now, here's the real reason I asked that question: Killer players also have difficulty adapting and refuse to change. You seem incapable of even considering that possibility, and every example you've come up with is (unsurprisingly) survivors. Consider regression, then. Ever since CoBruption and gen kick meta, killers are (nearly every day) screaming for regression buffs. Does that not sound remarkably like the "refusal to adapt" that you were talking about? Why is it that you seem to think this only applies to survivors?
I can only guess, and can't actually read minds, but I'd say that your inability to change your PR stance (see what I did there?), on top of your inability to self-reflect that killers might also suffer from this problem occasionally too, is almost entirely the reason you're getting downvoted. I'm not perfect, but you've said basically nothing that would change my mind here. And it appears that I'm not alone in that either.
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Eh, Killers still kill over 50% against "High MMR 4-mans"
Likewise, whilst I played, I was winning the VAST majority of my matches, even against competitive players like those on Misery. It would be statistically impossible for me to not be in the highest bracket, not that it means anything since MMR is useless.
In competitive, this was also not a winning strategy, in most matches. It merely wasted Survivor time that they often could not spare. It only helps you win harder, as it were.
Suffice to say, I am not convinced of anything in your explanation except that you think you know quite a bit and are more sure of yourself than even I would be, in your stead.
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…But that's not your mistake. That's the killer making a very specific decision. If the killer doesn't chase you off hook, you don't get to use DS.
It's the same as Unbreakable- that doesn't fix your mistake, it protects you against the killer leaving you on the ground for over 24 seconds. Sure, you needed to be downed to use either perk, but it's not being downed that lets them work, it's the killer deciding to do the thing they're supposed to protect against.
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Considering that you started that chase on a massive back foot and 60 seconds is a long damn time to be in chase even if you weren't being tunnelled, I don't think that's particularly fair.
It exists to protect you when you're otherwise very vulnerable, not to bail you out of a mistake.
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I mean, you can disagree with me all you like. My basis is based off of strategies and techniques of some of the most experienced players in the game. I just took those as a learning process and applied them to my own games and it has made a tremendous difference in win rates. If you disagree with those players who practically bleed DBD, then hey, maybe you know better than them. Perhaps you could join some of their teams and show them the ropes. There's room for improvement no matter the level of experience. If you genuinely know better that who many consider to be the best players in the game, then that is incredibly impressive. Should start steaming, you'd make one heck of a following.
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Ideally, yes.
Intangible and invisible Survivor that can't use items until they progress the game, in which case they lose those previously mentioned abilities and/or if EGC triggers.
Can't be tunneled or slugged, but also can't progress the game until they choose. Fine tuning needs to be done, but it satisfies both parties. Survivors don't get a free I get to do gens 4 free or hang around for a save button
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I did stream, on occasion. Some people here watched it and saw what I did, they have some basis for why I think the way I do.
The average game held nothing of any note for me. No challenges, no enjoyment, no learning. So, I started playing in scrim nights for a bit, which was enlightening. I competed in one of the Community Cups, didn't get far enough to be streamed, I don't think, but fun all the same. Played against a couple good comp teams in pubs, didn't exactly blow through them, but I did perform well.
All this to say, I know what I am talking about. I have not seen anyone employ that strategy to any real boon. It is rather like old PGTW. It would often let you "win harder" and turn games you would've won into landslides. I have seen it done in comp, and against me in scrims. When it worked, the Killer was already on the back foot and likely going to lose. It had little to no effect often though, as committing one person to babysit a gen is a tall task amongst opponents of equal skill.
I hardly think that anyone will recommend Solo Q to 99 a gen for the whole match. That would simply be ludicrous. A team with no communication can hardly pull that off consistently. If you are doing that, you are not helping your team in the rest of the match, which is not great.
Seems likely to me that you are simply playing against players worse than you.
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I'm convinced you're OhTofu's Forum account or something. All you do is give his opinions verbatim, call for killer nerfs constantly, and argue that broken stuff on survivor was actually fun and fair like old Dead Hard and MFT.
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Old DH was pretty awful, up there with old DS. I don't like making perks reliant on ping though.
MFT, well, I never really had an issue with it honestly. Broke up the meta a bit at the time.
So there's that disproven, and easily so.
Can't say I watch OhTofu. I played in his scrim nights once upon a time, but I haven't caught a stream in at least a year. I do not like how the pendulum has swung towards Killer over the years. It did not feel good while I was still playing, and I am sure I would still hate it if I picked up Killer again now.
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What is there even to add to this thread at this point? It's like 300 posts already. The basekit anti slugging/tunneling/camping will make solo queue better while SWF gets even stronger to the point where good players would have to try to lose. Map offering and spawn changes look nice. People on this thread talking about how they win 95% of their killer games going for 12 hooks on M1s without gen slowdown but somehow have no footage of this are FOS
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People on this thread talking about how they win 95% of their killer games going for 12 hooks on M1s without gen slowdown but somehow have no footage of this are FOSAnd the thread won't progress if that is the take away.
Win the vast majority doesn't mean 95%. Don't tunnel or slug doesn't mean 12 hook. Not everyone is saying they are playing M1 killers or going without gen slowdown. You're combining a lot of different statements throughout the thread and taking it to the extreme.
I don't think anyone doubts that survivors CAN be good or that survivors CAN win, its just the odds are pretty heavily in the killers favor when they queue up.
As for video, someone took this challenge recently and the immediate comments, as predicted, were 'well, the survivors you show are just bad'. Any video that is uploaded will just be shot down as not high MMR.
That's the thing: I'm willing to believe I and others aren't at this super mythical MMR that some talk about (now that is the video I'd like to see of nothing but 4 man SWF after 4 man SWF). Except there's a much better, more public example than I: streamers. I watch streamers with thousands or tens of thousands of hours in the game, massive win percentages, who if they aren't at high MMR, no one is.
The survivors they hit? Sometimes good, usually a mixed bag, and generally not that different than what I see in games. And they put absurd challenges on their killers to try and make the game actually interesting while still winning.
That's better evidence than any video I can upload.
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