Probably 3rd seal just because its permanent and makes you have to hunt for the totem. Unless you're really good and comfortable playing blind, or got a totem munching build then the perk is really annoying for solo Q.

Yeah, I agree Knock Out I believe is better due to the fact that it relies on the downed survivor to crawl towards their teammates and the team is permanently blind to the downed survivor.

I don't really see Hex: Third Seal a lot in my games, but Knock Out is something that a lot more killers bring.

Personally, I think Hex Totems should be stronger than their counterparts as Hexes should be more risk and more reward.

However, Knock Out is more low risk and high reward especially against a soloq team that doesn't know how to counter it.

If anything, I would put Knock Out on a timer and then put how Knock Out works on Third Seal so that there is no permanent blindness to the weakest role soloq.

But that's just my two cents, I really don't understand why there is such a thing as permanent blindness in a video game that directly supports cooperation.

Yeah, I see your perspective. I do hope that with the upcoming changes especially with the surrender mechanic being implemented that Knock Out will be monitored and adjusted accordingly.

As it stands now, it's a pub stomper for people unless they equip anti-slugging builds but Knock Out is such a niche perk because it has a low pick rate from what I understand.

But the reason why we're getting a surrender mechanic is due in fact to Knock Out's pressure on soloq and people complaining about it. Especially with people posting pictures of four man bleedouts via the forums (I'm sure it has been posted here) or on the official Reddit subpage.

I do firmly think it's strong against soloq versus obviously their counterpart SWF. If anything you can just simply put a timer on Knock Out and leave Third Seal for perma-blindness, but again - it just impacts soloq drastically in a way due to lack of information being withheld.

You are right that both are great together, however, I just see Knock Out mostly on my end. 😜

You are correct that obviously there are many things that are incorporated with Hex: Third Seal but interestingly enough - not many people use it in a full Hex build.

Think of something like Hex: Pentimento, Hex: Devour Hope, Hex: Thrill of the Hunt, Hex: Undying, or whatever plethora of totem defense perks there are.

I just hardly see Hex: Third Seal but yes, Hex: Third Seal does have a lot attached to it but I think that's why it doesn't necessarily stay up as long as some might think to favor Knock Out more than the prior. 😎

That's how it always is, isn't it? Up for 30 seconds on Killer, but can't find the thing and it takes 10 minutes when playing surv…Oh yeah for sure, last time I checked 3rd seal was maybe barely at like a .6% pickrate even, so I'll definitely be in a small minority here, lol. It's an underrated perk, but understandably so due to limited perk slots and it being a hex (which have been really weak since like the dawn of time, but are starting to get more support).

I've posted some of my more aggressive blindness builds around the forums and most of them use a combination of both slug perks or one over the other, but say it was you want to do a full-on Blind Domintation Pig build using only 3rd Seal.

If I were to put it in a build centered around hexes. I'd start with using something like Dominance, Undying, Third Seal, and that's all it'd need for the staples. Then just include a flex (Penti, Blood Favor, Surge, STBFL, Ruin, ToTh, ToT, Unforeseen, or commit to the slug playstyle and go Infectious) and pair it with her blindness add-ons. You could even throw that on a more mobile killer and it puts pressure on quickly, which is ideally what you will want while your totem has uptime.

I'm sorry to hear that you've had that experience when it comes to the Boons. I find that when I notice people are having Knock Out, I will ultimately push myself towards going into a locker. I actually ended up getting a 4 man out against a slugging Singularity because I would force him to hook me.

It's either you drop me and get no Knock Out value or you hook me getting no Knock Out value. The problem is, is that it makes a survivor have to notice it first, get picked up (however long that takes), and then utilize the locker which the killer can just set you down to bleed you out anyways.

As I've said, with the rise of Knock Out and blindness related builds (not add-ons) more people will opt to play SWF due to the fact that you can undermine these builds with simple communication. Just remember for next time, just try to put yourself into a locker and if you're slugged — what I like to do is to crawl away from my starting position and hope that someone finds me, at least that is how I played when I played soloq.

@Nun_So_Vile , I see the variety with those builds. It's kinda crazy that you made a whole build based around blindness but most of the time I just see Knock Out by itself. 😂 Those are some creative builds and I can see that you put a lot of time into creating them.

Do you typically use those types of builds or do you go for the simplicity of just using Knock Out? I would think that most killers opt for Knock Out because it's more generic to use and can easily give value once a survivor is down compared to simply hitting a survivor with a basic attack.

But as we've mentioned and we both agree that Hexes are generally really hard to get value from unless you're running a full totem defense build -- but even then they can be deleted from the match as a whole! I remember going against this Pinhead with Thrill of the Hunt, Devour Hope, Pentimento, and Undying (I think?) and my SWF and I destroyed his build by about 3 gens left causing him to be a perkless Pinhead. But at the same time, these types of builds are very strong towards soloq as obviously they don't have the necessary resources to combat these otherwise strong builds. 😅

Very good question! Like you mentioned about the streamers you watch, I'll run both perks, but that is a lot of perk real estate. Typically, if I'm going to run either perk the builds will depend on my reason and what exactly the means of obtaining victory are, but each have the same playstyle and the perks in them a purpose in mind, which is focusing on and supporting slugging playstyle with blindness as an extra benefit. In that last build I posted leaves room in the flex for really any flavor of perk you desire.

I like the creativity and and challenge of a hex build and I've softened my stance on Hex perks since running this build of Domination + Blood Favor + Rapid Brutality + Undying on Dracula. Blood Favor in particular has really has grown on me so it's sent me down this rabbit hole of trying some different ideas out. I won't always double-down on full hex build running 3rd seal by itself, I think 2 is enough if you have a solid idea of what you want the build to do. I'm hoping the upcoming changes to surv spawns will benefit hex totems as a whole since they won't spawn in already spread across the map.

3rd Seal is also an interesting one because of its most important ability giving blindness with basic and special attacks (Thanks Iron!). Where as Knock Outs sole purpose is for slug and getting effects after the chase has ended, 3rd Seal activates in-chase as soon as you touch the surv. They lose auto-pathing with WoO if they're using it, and the benefit there is you've potentially cut down your own time spent in chase by increasing their odds of making a mistake early during chase. And that's where time saved adds up in the bigger picture. Cause with WoO still active they can pretty easily use shift+W in injured state and have that vital info on resources to extend chase with a guided tour of the map even in solo Q. 3rd Seal's effect can also proc other perks that work on contact, so pair it with Blood Favor and make fairly short work of a player in chase.

I like to run Knockout by itself and somehow when I do I also end up using Franklin's. Those two together have been a staple in many of the builds i've done for some reason. I cannot remember how it got started, if its something I was recommended by a friend or just one night of theorycrafting stumbled upon it, but somehow they always wind up in the same builds. 😅😂

Oh yes, for sure! 3rd Seal definitely impacts my Deja Vu in my builds so I try to find it as quickly as possible.

I do think the perk enables a form of urgency to get rid of, as you've mentioned it blocks any form of information such as a WOO - I don't use it anymore but undoubtedly it is a strong perk amongst soloq and SWF alike.

I don't play killer as much on my end, as I generally find survivor fun for myself to play but I value perk and build creativity and yours has a lot of thought into it and definitely keeps survivors on their toes.

I think people get used to how the opponent plays a lot of the time, so when the builds they're going against aren't necessarily meta but still function in a strong way, it still provides the necessary foundation for a team to figure out!

Like you've mentioned, if a killer is feeling frisky they can definitely implement both as they are inherent slowdowns to the game and puts the survivor in a situation where they need to act in urgency and utilize new ways to counter Knock Out - I think the issue is more or less the fact that people do not know how to counter it. I've been posting videos on my channel specifically highlighting how to counter Knock Out. 🤔 Especially one where I went against the slugging Singularity but obviously it's hard to spread that knowledge to other soloq and SWF teams! I appreciate your input and thank you for expanding my knowledge on it even if I, myself only primarily see Knock Out during my games! ❤️

Edit: You make me want to upload the Singularity video, haha. I appreciate constructive conversations on here, especially with how divisive killers and survivors get when it comes to the gameplay! Why I typically take a break sometimes because people definitely do get quite passionate on the forums, but it's nice to have a genuine conversation without it being so heated.

Reasonable conversations are what I like to see. 😝

Solo queue players hate perkless killers. That's what you should run.

You lost me when you said die as a team, cutie Yoichi never dies.

Never put him in that dilemma.

Even against the most meta of meta builds, he will persevere.

Even against the Knock Out and 3rd Seal builds, he will go detective his way sleuthing around getting the pesky totems and use his detective skills to pick up the downed teammates. No matter, cutie Yoichi is on the case and even when the entity takes him, he loads back in, and does it all over again. #JusticeforCutieYoichi

Yes, I could never. You have balls of steel because I cannot be in that position running my mains with no perks and no add-ons. Personally speaking, run whatever you want to run - it's a game and people cannot tell you how or what to play.

I let Mr. Tat0rhead have the fun of doing perkless survivor and have his own chaos! Couldn't be me and I'll admit I am a person who depends on perks to be good — at least I recognize it. 😜

Thank you for that tip! I really appreciate it. I'll definitely try and keep that in mind.<3

^ to my surprise, it was a 3 man out. I completely forgot that Zarina died to Rancor, but regardless 3 man out is a nice result for the game to me anyways. 😊

Oh sure, no problem! In reality, you should thank @Nun_So_Vile because I more than likely wasn't going to upload the video today! Haha.

I was probably going to do a comedy video or something along those lines as I do daily chase videos anyways. I'm glad the video helped and hopefully it helps others as well. 🤗❤️

Aw, thank you! ❤️ You as well, whether you're working, in school, or anything else! Wish you the best, cheers!