Final debate between stronger side killer vs survivor

Killer and survivors enter match without perks, offerings and add-ons, no tools box, medkit, map nothing.
Which side do you think will dominate under a standard match?
Give well structured arguments only
In a Dead by Daylight (DBD) match where both the Killer and Survivors enter without perks, offerings, add-ons, or items, the Killer has a distinct advantage. Here’s a structured breakdown of why:
1. The Killer’s Built-in Strengths
Unlike Survivors, who rely heavily on perks and items for efficiency, the Killer’s core mechanics remain potent even without enhancements. Key advantages include:
Inherent Map Pressure: The Killer always knows where Survivors will be (e.g., generators, hooks, exit gates). Survivors must constantly move and react, while the Killer can dictate the flow of the game.
Guaranteed One-Hit Advantage: While Survivors need two hits to go down, they have no way to heal themselves without a medkit or perks like Self-Care. Once injured, they stay vulnerable.
Hooking Survivors Is Unchanged: Without perks like Decisive Strike or Deliverance, Survivors have no second chances after being hooked. A Killer who gets a down always progresses toward a sacrifice.
No Tool-Assisted Loops: Without Dead Hard, Sprint Burst, or medkits, chases are entirely skill-dependent. The Killer’s speed and mind games become even stronger.
2. Survivor Struggles Without Perks and Items
Survivors rely on their perks and items for resilience. Without them:
No Healing: Without Medkits or perks like Self-Care, a single hit puts a Survivor in a dangerous state indefinitely.
Longer Generator Times: No toolboxes, Prove Thyself, or Resilience means generators take the full 90 seconds per Survivor, allowing the Killer more time to pressure objectives.
No Chase Perks: Perks like Dead Hard, Sprint Burst, and Window-related perks help Survivors extend chases. Without them, most Survivors will go down quickly.
No Hook Second Chances: Perks like Borrowed Time, Decisive Strike, or Unbreakable give Survivors counterplay after being hooked. Without them, the Killer has fewer obstacles to sacrificing players.
3. Exceptions & Edge Cases
While the Killer generally dominates in a no-perk, no-item environment, a few scenarios could challenge this assumption:
Map Dependence: Some maps (e.g., The Game, RPD) have strong natural loops. A highly skilled Survivor team could out-loop a basic M1 Killer.
High Coordination: SWF (Survive With Friends) groups can communicate and make strategic plays. Even without perks, a well-coordinated team can extend the match.
Certain Killers Struggle: Killers like The Trapper, The Twins, or The Pig, who rely heavily on their power and add-ons, may struggle more than straightforward Killers like The Wraith or The Hillbilly.
My Conclusion: Killer Dominates all the time.
Comments
-
Lol, what a debate and objective summary :D
It's same as always
- SWF | Top killers
- Most killers
- SoloQ and F tier killers
15 -
Basically what it boils down to - if you have a highly coordinated SWF with strong perks, they can go toe to toe with any killer — look at Momo's Blight versus a highly skilled comp team.
Watch any comp team go against certain killers, you will have your answer quite shortly.
Soloq on the other hand is in the trenches.
10 -
Killer always wins. Survivors require the killer to be very bad at the game to have a chance.
-19 -
Eh, you could use that same argument towards survivor.
Killer doesn't always win, especially as killer is prone to mistakes just like a team of survivors are. They're just more penalized more than a group of survivors as survivors can afford to make mistakes as there's four of them.
Soloq survivors are another story as yes, them going against a killer with little to no mistakes - they will have a harder time going against a meta build killer or Knock Out slugging killer due to their built in lack of coordination.
A skilled SWF can compete with a killer, as long as they're organized and know beforehand. It's why Momo's streak ended to a comp team that was aware that they were going against him, giving them the advantage over Momo.
It's not so black and white that killer or survivor wins, it's more so centered on who does less mistakes, what builds are used, and the skill set and game sense each has.
I'm sure I'll get downvoted, lmao.
4 -
Sounds as skill issue on your side to be honest…
9 -
No Healing: Without Medkits or perks like Self-Care, a single hit puts a Survivor in a dangerous state indefinitely.
I've heard tell of a very rare tech that can heal Survivors, I'm not sure if I should say it though…
11 -
have you actually ever tried playing as killer?
7 -
That’s funny - against good survivor teams I actually struggle quite a bit. Maybe I’m just a trash killer player. Why don’t you show us some of your killer gameplay so we can learn how it’s done so easily?
3 -
People underestimate how much you have to pay attention to things as a killer.
Same for the survivor side, I think that's why it's so divisive in general on the forums.
Killer -- you have to ensure that you close down a chase fast, monitor your gens (you're practically babysitting them), be aware of your surroundings for those pesky flashlights/flashbangs (if you're not using Lightborne), and a plethora amount of other things.
I find myself getting more frustrated when I play killer than I do survivor, hence why I prefer playing survivor. You can relax and not deal with some things as there is general downtime for you unless you're experiencing a snowball or something generally out of your control.
When you play killer, you can easily get tilted for how people are playing but I mean, both sides can get tilted I'm just speaking on killer. I got more annoyed playing as Wraith and dealing with survivors on Eyrie of Crows than I do playing survivor on Midwich but that's just my opinion. 🤷🏾♀️
3 -
playing as survivor is way less stressful than playing as killer. As long as I have competent teammates, I definitely prefer the survivor role. The major problem with survivor side is of course solo queue where you get none of the communication benefits that SWF enjoy and the matchmaking system doesn’t work so you will often get paired with brand new survivors even if you have thousands of hours in the game and know what you are doing.
6 -
Yeah, I think that's why the MMR system needs a general overhaul.
Instead of it being based on W/L conditions, it should prioritize what the specific individual is doing throughout the game. How much a survivor is pushing the game forward doing generators, unhooking people, taking protection hits, and other team based coordinated things and I am 99.99% sure that many games in soloq will be much better. Doing it on a generic W/L condition without any teamwork cohesion is what pushes people to play with odd soloq people. You have people who do the bare minimum, straight up leave, and their MMR rises while the people doing the most get the same level of MMR if they also win.
Same for Killer as well, reward people for doing their objectives - such as a killer and their hooks versus outright kills to keep their MMR up.
I don't know what they will do with the MMR overhaul update, but they need to include more things and it be more nuanced for a game of this caliber.
5 -
No perks, no items, no add-ons, nothing, I'd wager killer wins. All the protections for camping and tunnelling thrown out, no anti-slug, all the band-aids demolished creates a very clear path to victory for the killer.
3 -
Doubt it, at least for me it is much easier to play survivor without perks than killer (depends on what killer).
If no sides can use items, addons, perks, then if we talk about SWF I would definetly bet on them. It's a killer with no information, slowdown, or chase…
2 -
Yes, imagine playing with no gen slowdown, no healing slowdown, nothing. There is nothing to slow down the other side other than simply hooking (as a general sense of slowdown) or slugging. I just can't see killer having an easy time here unless of course they're playing a character with high map mobility and the skill set to snowball.
-1 -
""I tried playing killer for a while. After winning every game with a 4K I got so bored, that I only ever played survivor, since."
6 -
Lmao. 😂😂😂
Edit: I was not aware putting laughing emojis here would garner downvotes, I'm simply laughing in agreement with @Akumakaji
Regardless, killer and survivor are not painted so easily to be easier than the other. Obviously both have their strengths and weaknesses - I play survivor because I enjoy the role more, not because I believe I can 4k each game and think it's easier.
Post edited by CautionaryMary on-2 -
I can see myself winning with Blight, but most killers would be difficult.
2 -
Didn't momo win thousands in a row? Surely you not going to actually sit there and type he didn't verse any good SWF?
Yes, killer will always win. You can play perfectly as survivor but still lose if the killer is good.
-5 -
Why not limit yourself to make it interesting? There are so many options…
I love when people take meta builds and are suprised when soloQ gets stomped, especially at start when you play against babies.
-1 -
Basically the best killer player in the world always wins, therefore all other killer players also always win. Got it
5 -
I never defended the killer's winstreak for having thousands of wins, you are putting words into my mouth.
The question was who would win in a straight neck-and-neck position, I mention how I believe survivor would win if they're a highly coordinated SWF depending on many variables and factors.
As I said in my previous response, it's not as black and white as many things.
Would a highly coordinated SWF beat a basekit Blight? Probably not. How about Nurse? Dracula? Or any other S-tier killer, still no.
But against let's say anything even A tier and under potentially the survivor side will edge out over the killer side.
I am quite aware of the killer winstreaks being in the thousands versus the measly hundreds for survivor - however, that does not change my opinion that a basekit killer with no built in slowdown would struggle against any highly coordinated SWF, especially if they utilize clock callouts.
-1 -
Yes and my point is most games are not SWF teams. Please use the average games as a yard stick for measurements
1 -
But the things that make swiffer stronger are also gone. No perks, no items. No flashlight saves, no perk synergies, none of that.
1 -
Whether they have perks / items / addons is not as relevant as the question
SWF or not?
What killer?
Taking out addons on the killer side is much bigger than survivors losing items (though varies a little by killer). Losing perks hurts the survivors more.
If we're just talking generally with both sides trying to win, probably killer. With no anti-tunnel protections whatsoever beyond the basekit BT, pretty straightforward on what needs to be done by the killer.
1 -
Would a highly coordinated SWF beat a basekit Blight? Probably not. How about Nurse? Dracula? Or any other S-tier killer, still no.
But against let's say anything even A tier and under potentially the survivor side will edge out over the killer side.
But you're comparing unalike things. You are taking the strongest possible setup that survivors could have under these parameters, 4 person SWF with clock call outs, and comparing it to weaker killers.
4 -
The way you have laid out the description of the game is just completely not how a game of DBD is - with your restrictions and everything tied into your initial post - it can go either way.
Why would a killer constantly know where a survivor is 24/7, while a survivor has to constantly be on the move?
Additionally, in the case of not healing and just going around 1 hit is completely different to how a regular game of DBD is.
In this situation, the game is just completely far removed from what DBD actually is - but I'll bite and say that it more than likely goes towards the killer in this situation - but again, your scenario and restrictions are placing it as a killer sided match-up, not that DBD is inherently a killer or survivor sided video game.
-1 -
Well, my post was directed towards @PetTheDoggo 's initial response and I adjusted my answer accordingly to the parameters set from the above.
Regardless, it's such a far removed aspect of what DBD truly is.
Even then, you could still use these clock callouts - there's no rule restriction in the initial post that says it is not allowed.
Information is very vital when it comes to playing this type of game. If there was a highly coordinated SWF going against a killer with these restrictions, they will still give the killer a hard time — now can they win is another story? Soloq would be absolutely obliterated in the above scenario.
0 -
We don't need it... The most powerful tool is still there. We can talk to each other, which make us way more time efficient than soloQ.
We can easily say who goes for unhook, we can make a call where to go for heal etc.
1 -
As a killer your success and mistakes starts and end with you. You tend to assume that survivors are a coordinated unit that are being controlled by a singularity mindset.
1 -
Not really, just expect 4 good survivors who know basics… You really don't need to have clock callout system to win against most killers…
Killer's mistakes start and end with killer, that's true, but quite often there is also less room to make mistakes as a killer in first place. There are some huge mistakes survivors can do, but also many where you have chance to win anyway.
2 -
Well, usually when you have comp players killer/SWF going for win streak, you will end with other comp players stream sniping them to end it…
Also pick one, if killers can't say all survivors they play against are comp level SWF, then you are not playing against comp Blights who have 4 slowdown and tunnel as soon they can…
-2 -
its comp swfs > top killers > average swf > low tier killers > solo queue
4 -
Is he? Just because he is a known streamer doesn't mean he is like the best. There could be hundreds of killers as good as him or better that nobody knows. I feel like that is a disingenuous attempt to justify the OPness of killer. I feel like you would have a different opinion if some random survivor streamer could just own every game and escape every time they wanted to. The truth of the matter is that survivor streamers rarely escape. There is no contest to see who can be a good survivor because the game is that far stacked against survivors. As soon as they see a cracked Blight or any other killer then they just lose.
1 -
The truth of the matter is that survivor streamers rarely escape.
Hens even as soloQ managed 65,5% escape rate (50 games), which is very good imo.
Also you clearly like to mix comp players and just streamers, so right we have Zaka and Knighlight going for SWF escape streak and so far they are at 70. I don't know if they played since then to increase it.
We had several attempts in past, many went over 100 and most I know about was something over 500, but maybe there is better.
Funny is you can usually see with survivors win streak, they actually limit themselves. They are not going for best possible builds and use comp rules instead. I want to see win streak with builds on level when they went for fastest escape, good luck dealing with that… It would be very boring tho.
2 -
I dont need to read this post to know the gist of the replies.
Killer mains: Its survivor sided!!!
Survivor mains: Its killer sided!!!
People who actually play both: 🙄
0 -
look at the escape rates. Even at high MMR solo queue, which should be the most stacked against survivor according to you, survivors are escaping 40% of the time, which is exactly the escape rate that the devs are targeting for this game. Sorry, you are just flat out wrong and the stats prove it
0 -
I think survivors will always win under default conditions. There's just not much you can do against very fast gens. Now, they can rush gens at the cost of allowing a 3-gen or slug snowball, but against the survivors who just don't go down, and have match awareness, that doesn't work either. Survivors have never needed items or gen rush stuff or second chance stuff to win. That's all just extra advantage. Overall, the math of the game does not support the killer winning; There's not enough time.
2 -
provided both sides are equivalent in skill, build and mindset?
it's even. a lot of people are going to pick a side, but i think that the three things i picked decide 99.9% of games, so if you're trying to determine which is better, you have to decide which side has the more unbreakable mindset, more practiced skils or, after both of those are considered even - the better build.
0 -
That's if the killer's tunneling, or is going straight from survivor to survivor to gen to survivor with no missed guesses. So either he's tunneling, basically allowing the other 3 survivors to do whatever they want, or he's playing hit and run, which is unviable.
0 -
yeah we would have zero of these kinds of arguments on this forum if people bothered to play both sides
1 -
I think it's more that they're getting lucky. We know that after 1-2 matches as a new killer you're playing, it immediately sets you to a higher MMR with efficient survivors. But sometimes players who play rather noobish actually have that as an advantage. My friend, who's a noob, who will seriously make Wraith or Ghost Face look unbeatable because they don't know how to play against them, while simultaneously they'll be able to loop a Nurse for a minute+, I guess because their movement is so erratic and not planned, the Nurse just keeps guessing wrong on her blinks.
The same can happen with experienced survivors against noob killers, especially in regards to the "no mindgame" mindgame, where the killer doesn't bait the double back at a loop, causing a longer chase, he does it again, causing a longer chase, and at that point you're likely "Surely he won't do it again, because he keeps getting punished," and yet he does it again and ends up downing you because of it, because you mindgamed yourself thinking he was gonna mindgame you. A complete noob can down you in that fashion.
-2 -
He couldn't have. It's not THAT hard for a good SWF to win. One decent team, and your streak is gone. No killer is able to down fast enough to stop the runaway gens, unless it's like a god-level Nurse/Spirit/Blight, in which case that hardly proves killer in general is like really strong, because those killers are the cream of the crop; no other killers come close to their power. And you can't justify all killers staying as weak as they are now because 3 of them perform well.
I actually played against a god Spirit recently, who was like 90% accurate on her phase hits, and I didn't play well at all. She was tunneling/slugging me, and I managed to dodge like 2 phase hits total. The 1 chance I had to breath, I ran off to a corner to self-heal, and then hid and did far-off gens the rest of the match. In general, in part because of me, we really didn't play that well as a team. But that was against a literal god Spirit, when we had no comms, and I martyred so that 2-3 escaped. That's the highest a killer of that level can get, against a random good solo team: a draw or loss (I can't remember exactly the result). And it was on a farm map, which everyone says apparently has 0 pallets.
0 -
Hens even as soloQ managed 65,5% escape rate (50 games), which is very good imo.
Minor correction: that was the escape rate for all of the survivors over those games.
More importantly, he excluded some games that got mentioned a little during the Youtube video. I don't know the specifics because I don't think the raw footage exists so I don't know how frequently it occurred.
He couldn't have. It's not THAT hard for a good SWF to win
This really reads as 'despite the overwhelming evidence of almost 2000 games, I just don't want to believe it'.
Even if you somehow exclude him, there are plenty of streamers who've gone on long kill streaks. How are they magically missing all of the SWFs that everyone else seems to be hitting?
8 -
Well, we've already experimented with perkless matches via the Lights Out mode. That should tell you a good bit on how much Survivors or Killers win their games.
1 -
the game definitely favors killer on average, though only slightly and the standard deviation is pretty high (due to both sides having a lot of stuff they can do to make it easier or harder on themself) so it's by and large fair imo
comparing people that bring in nothing is a misstep because that is not reflective of how the game is actually played. killer is the stronger role, yes, but comparing how well naked survivors do against naked killers is not at all helpful
3 -
Killer and survivors enter match without perks, offerings and add-ons, no tools box, medkit, map nothing
Which side do you think will dominate under a standard match?
Soooo we're unsure of what you mean by "map nothing" and "standard match". You mean no "map offering" and a trial with average (aka non competitive) survivors? Cause our answer kinda depends on the killer and map.
0 -
Survivors objectivly hold an overwhelming advantage at higher skill levels.
Towards the middle things are less clear and become highly dependant on what killer you are playing as or against but generally things are pretty ok.
On the lower end killers hold the advantage.
This is problematic because new survivor players struggle really hard to get anywhere, while killers are punished for getting better as matches become progressively more and more stacked, forcing them to tunnel, slug or play an S tier killer to stand a chance.
BHVR tends to look at aggregate data that averages the kill rates across all elos and makes balance choices on that. In truth this is ignoring a really important nuance. Kill rates are likely higher at lower elo, more balanced at mid elo and at the high end favor survivors way more.
The goal that BhVR should be chasing IMO is trying to tighten up the spread a bit. Make lower elo more survivable, and nerfing survivors on the higher end.3 -
It's an interesting thought experiment, but I don't think it's as much of a "final verdict" debate ender as you might hope it would be, unfortunately. There are still three very important variables that aren't being accounted for with this supposedly level playing field - two of which people I think would broadly agree with, and one of which I suspect might be a bit of a hot take of mine.
First, map. There are maps that heavily favour survivor, maps that heavily favour killer, and maps anywhere in between - if this supposedly equalised match takes place on Garden of Joy, that's going to be a very different outcome to if it takes place on Haddonfield, and so on. However, one can assume a generally down-the-middle map for these thought experiments, so that one isn't too big of a deal.
Second, killer. This one's a lot harder to average out- a perkless, addonless Trapper is going to struggle substantially more than a perkless, addonless Nurse. There's just no getting around the fact that the game doesn't and can't favour a role wholeheartedly when the killer role has such a huge variance in strength.
Third and finally… well, how's the killer playing? If it's a no holds barred, anything goes kind of match, then the killer has a significant advantage in that they have access to tunnelling, excessive slugging, and to a much smaller degree camping, but survivors don't have access to the meaningful tools to counter it. It's tempting to say therefore that killer is the stronger role, but… is it? Or are those specific strategies unbalanced?
If the killer weren't leveraging unbalanced shortcuts, it'd be a more "honest" game, so to speak, and the outcome could easily be very different. It's a meaningful distinction that should be made here, when talking about the overall state of balance.
As an aside, your post makes multiple mentions of injuries leaving survivors vulnerable indefinitely without medkits or perks, but… survivors can heal each other? That's a pretty major core part of the game. You also make reference to chases being exclusively skill based without perks to alter them in one point, but then say chases favour the killer and survivors will go down quickly in another point, which seems contradictory to me. Surely both can't be true at once?
2 -
"Killer and survivors enter match without perks, offerings and add-ons, no tools box, medkit, map nothing."
Why would that determine what side is stronger? People are allowed to bring any combination of items, perks, add ons and offerings in the only permanent mode this game has.
Selecting your build and knowing how and when to use it, is an integral part of the game, that absolutely affects the strength of both sides. Removing them from the equation would falsefy the results.
2 -
Survivors objectively hold an overwhelming advantage at higher skill levels
Kid named 48% swf escape rate:
4