General Discussions
General Discussions
Grim embrace
Why does this perk still activate after a survivor has died? Isnt it just much healthier to deactivate the perk once someone is dead?
I dont even mind it being buffed a bit if it means people who tunnel someone out dont exponentially benefit from the effects compared to those who dont tunnel
Comments
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That would be a good option, but they probably scraped this concept when the removed it from ruin.
Right now i would wait for the anti-tunneling-mechanic first.
Otherwise you would need to change the perk massive without a reason. Why massive? Bc while its annoying that the killer can kill one first and then get value, it would also be annoying if the killer cant find the last survivor for the strong effect bc they are hiding.
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True. Unlike Pain Res, that gives you equal value for each survivor, so even when tunneling, it is useful, Grim Embrace only has a minor effect for the first 3 survivors. So it's way more benefitial to just spread hooks than tunnel one or two people out and then try to get rest of the stacks with survivors who can simply start hiding and deny them to you.
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Y'all look for any possible angle to get a killer perk nerfed. It shouldn't deactivate on death, because you still hooked all 4 survivors once each. You earned the perk. How could the killer be tunneling if he got the perk to work? Unless you're trying to say he hooked 3 people, and then started tunneling, in which case how do you not win that match as survivor? That's the problem with switching to tunneling once you're already losing: it never works out. It's why killers "tunneling from the start" is such a copout, because it assumes that you only need to do it later or when losing, which is the absolute worst time to start. The greatest critics of the strategy don't even know how it works or plays out.
Every time the devs have attempted to nerf tunneling, or make something so weak that it can't be used with tunneling, it's been an abject failure. Same with anti-tunnel survivor perks. It punishes the non-tunneling killers more than the tunnelers. This change would do the same.
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I mean, what exactly stops the killer from tunnelling someone out and THEN hooking the other three people?
That's kinda the point being made here. Killers can get the full effect of a strong slowdown perk after tunnelling someone out to put themselves in a massively winning position.
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It's slowdown. It's supposed to work when conditions are met, and they're never light conditions (contrary to what the devs said when nerfing Pain Res. "Simply" hooking a survivor.). And I thought we were past this, because of the Ruin change. Nobody likes playing killer with perks that deactivate themselves just because someone dies.
The moment we apply the same standards to survivor stuff, the argument falls apart. "3 gens have been done, so your gen boost stuff stops working." "3/4 survivors are healthy, so your healing boost stuff stops working." You're punishing the player, arbitrarily, for being in a favorable position. Now, we did have DS and OTR deactivate in endgame... because it was a literal free escape. The killer getting Grim Embrace, a mere 40 seconds of slowdown (I thought it was 60. It's even worse than I thought.), does not automatically cause the the killer to win the match. The survivors can loop, heal up, body block, whatever for the 40 seconds, and then back to business as usual. A 3v1 is not an automatic survivor loss either.
Nerfing killer perks because they could* be used by tunnelers as well as normal players isn't sound logic, and would encompass basically any and all killer perks. "The killer's got Nurse's! Too much info against the tunneled!" "The killer's got Oppression! Too much gen pressure while the tunneled is on hook!" "The killer's got STBFL! Too quick of a cooldown against the tunneled!" It's ridiculous, and it would be endless. I don't even see one of these "top killer perks" so often and so consistent that any one of them sticks out too much to me. Deadlock, Grim, Corrupt, NOED, Pop, Pain Res, yeah I'll see them every now and then, more often than others, but they're not in every single match, especially not Grim. If anything, all these once-meta perks have been relegated to supplementary perks. They don't do enough on their own, so they're just there to support other perks, or vice versa.
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The argument actually doesn't fall apart and is, in fact, bolstered when looking at the survivor equivalents. You mention it yourself, DS and OTR deactivate in endgame because the perks - which are otherwise fair and reasonable, at least disregarding bodyblocking with OTR - provide far too much value in the endgame specifically.
The argument could easily be made that having access to strong slowdown perks after someone's died is the same. The perks are reasonable and fair on their own, but if someone dies early, they're far too impactful.
It's not about whether a perk can be used while tunnelling, it's about how much more effective it is after someone's tunnelled out. The whole point of tunnelling someone out is that it heavily affects generator efficiency for the survivor team, because a 3v1 benefits the killer very heavily if it happens early enough, so something that harms generator efficiency even more in a very direct way becomes questionable.
It's not the only thing to fix tunnelling, obviously, and I'm not even necessarily saying it absolutely has to happen myself, but I think it's a very reasonable pitch that warrants legitimate conversation. Killers tunnelling someone out and then also getting Pain Res and Grim Embrace is a pretty obviously overwhelming advantage.
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Conceptually I wish the game was designed more around this being the game design. That as survivors are killed the killer gets weaker, balancing out the game a bit more.
That said, its hard to do that at the moment. Especially if Grim Embrace was buffed, it would create scenarios were the last survivor who hasn't been hooked should absolutely just hide from the killer, which is the reverse of what you want from the game where the unhooked survivor should be pursuing chase.
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I think Grim Embrace is fine as is. There many other perks that need attention then this one.
It should keep its function as is.
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If the killer got less powerful the more they completed their objective, you would just create a situation where killers are forced to incapacitate survivors without killing them aka slugging. Which being forced to slug as a killer isn't fun and killers always slugging isn't fun for survivors either.
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I'm just not a fan of the orchestrated gameplay loop that's being pushed here. I really don't like the speed up/slowdown mechanic 2v8 had with the gens. That cannot come into 1v4, or it will kill this game. What you're suggesting is basically the same. "The killer's playing too well, thus the survivors need a comeback mechanic."
And this is all based on the idea that the survivors need handouts because the killer or their stuff is super oppressive. I don't think slowdown is oppressive, especially not with the perks we have now, in the state that they're in. They shave seconds off a gen. A good survivor can loop the killer for like a minute; they often don't, and it's still enough. The math of the game has been done a hundred times, and every time, the survivors do their objective faster than the killer can do his, giving them an automatic win. It doesn't always happen, but that's due to human error. Pain Res and Grim would not be overwhelming, 3v1 or not, against good survivors. You must take them into account, because the human error I mentioned? They possess little of it.
This is not a reasonable ask. This is ridiculous, especially now. It's saying, "Well, slugging is dead. Now let's go back to disincentivizing hooks. Let's go over every ability and idiosyncrasy killers have and find a way to 'fix' it, to our advantage."
At the very least, all this has reminded me of Grim's existence. Good thing, too. It could be the perfect 4th perk I've been looking for in my Pain Res/No Way Out/Remember Me build. Cheers to that.
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It's not a comeback mechanic, and it's not about playing too well.
It's a question of "if players have these tools available in this scenario, it would be unbalanced". That's not a comeback mechanic for survivors because they don't get anything, and it's not about playing too well in general because if you're actually playing well instead of tunnelling someone out straight away, you shouldn't need to have the strongest slowdown tools available to you at that point. Lesser/differing perks should help you close the match out perfectly fine.
Or maybe not! A genuine part of the conversation would be whether killers who are actually playing well would be unfairly punished with this idea. It's worth a discussion overall, for sure. You just can't start that conversation from the perspective of not acknowledging how much of a massive advantage it is to both have someone dead early and have continued access to meaningful gen slowdown perks.
Good survivors aren't infallible robots, you don't need every shortcut in the book on top of strong perks just to stand a chance. If you do, maybe they're just better players than you, it's possible.
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yeah but you're still saying that the killer should be punished for doing good. just because tunneling exists, doesnt mean a perk should be nerf'd
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To be clear, just to clarify, I am defending this idea being worth talking about rather than saying it absolutely should happen myself. I am fairly in favour of the idea, but I'm not saying there's no conversation to be had about it.
But, to that idea, it's not really actively a punishment if you know that's how the perk works ahead of time. When you bring hexes, you know that they deactivate when a specific condition is met, and you accept that when you bring them. It'd be the same with Grim Embrace or specific other slowdown perks - you know they deactivate when a specific condition is met, and you play around that.
If it happened randomly, or to every perk that you brought, sure, that'd be a punishment. If it's a baked-in part of a handful of specific perks, that's just how those perks work at that point, same as hexes or survivor perks like OTR/DS or Deliverance; they do their job then they deactivate.
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When exhaustion perks get disabled whenever 2-3 gens are left then we can agree upon deactivating grim when a survivor is dead.
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Also, one thing I neglected to mention in my earlier comment, is that Grim Embrace already heavily encourages to NOT tunnel by design.
The point was already made clear.
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You didnt read a thing right? Buff the timer on hook 1,2,3. Keep the time on the 4th hook the same. Deactivate it if someone is killed.
That way, those who tunnel dont get exponential value, and those who dont tunnel actually get the deserved value. Right now, if you tunnel someone out at 4 gens remaining, you have 3 survivors who are already going to have a difficult time finishing 4 gens with 3 survivors. Adding a super easy 40 second gen blockage on top of that is beyond overkill. Instead, make it a perk that rewards people who dont rush a kill. The risk is that survivors can do all gens, the benefit is that you get a huge blockage.
And how could the killer be tunnelling if he got the perk to work? Simple:
Blight, pain res, grim embrace. hook survivor 1, chase 2 but rush back to 1 the second they get unhooked, hook 1 again, chase survivor whoever and the survivors either have to leave the person on hook as long as possible while you get another pain res and grim, or they unhook so you can tunnel them out faster, both are not beneficial options for survivors, then you tunnel out 1 again and still have 3 gens remaining. A 40 second blockage once 1 survivor is dead, is basically 2 free hooks for most killers.
And no, currently anti-tunnel perks do not really punish non-tunnellers more than the tunnellers. Even OTR means 2 survivors aint sitting on gens instead of only the one you're chasing.-1 -
It's not too hard to do, in fact, other than Ruin (because its a hex), I think all gen regression perks should be 130-150% of what they are now as long as 4 survivors are alive, but maybe 75-80% of what they are now once 1 survivor has died. It makes killers want to keep all survivors alive as long as possible because their perks would be much stronger.
Basically the thanatophobia treatment to anything gen slowdown and gen regression-wise. Once 1 survivor is dead, you wont be able to get maximum value. So you have to choose to kill a survivor, or to keep the perk's power.
As for the final survivor hiding from the killer, that means that that survivor isnt gonna sit on gens, which means free pressure. And thats pressure that the killer can use to get everyone else dead on hook and just get quick kills. Especially if other gen regression perks like Pop and Surge do 150% of what they do now. That survivor would need to be on gens otherwise the gen regression perks would whittle away too much.
The only current problem would be slugging, and I do agree that they would need to fix that first before changing things. Because why would a killer hook someone who is dead on hook and downed, when they still have to find that last survivor to get grim embrace value.0 -
As I said, I wish the game was designed around the idea. We'd be talking about a very different game design if that was true. I also said it would be hard to put something like that in the game now.
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If anything they should nerf tunneling as a whole, not just a specific or handful of specific perks
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Survivors were literally "punished" for using haste perks too well to the point that they became a group of perks. Killers are using Grim Embrace too well with other gen regression perks through tunnelling. So honestly, it would make sense for killers to have perks that are stronger than they are now as long as all survivors are alive, but either be deactivated or weakened when survivors are dying.
Aka, early to mid game perks. The opposite of end game perks that dont have any effect or very little effect during the game, but have significant power once gens are gone.
And you can argue that survivors could have similar types of perks, like anti-tunnel perks that are 150% their current power at 4-5 gens, but 70% of their current power at 1-3 gens-1 -
I'd still want exhaustion to be disabled when a certain amount of gens are done. They do exactly the same thing Grim Embrace does, buy time. Except exhaustion is WAY more available than Grim and way better in the majority of scenarios.
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See, I agree with you that Grim isnt as available, generally speaking. But when talking top 5 strongest killers (where you are most likely to see Grim anyway), Grim isnt that difficult to trigger, and exhaustion doesnt really matter. Those are also the games where players are most-likely to die before Grim even gets the 4th stack (which is overkill if 3 survivors are left). The 4th stack should be used to kill a survivor because you definitely need someone dead if you've spread out hooks that much, but it shouldnt activate if someone is already dead, because then you can use it to kill a survivor once one is already dead, making it literally impossible for survivors to push out more than 1 gen.
Which is why I always state that Grim should get a buff in general, one that does block gens for 10-12 seconds per hook so that all killers can benefit from it, and maybe up the 40 seconds to 60 seconds too so that all killers can benefit from it, but have it disabled once a survivor dies so high mobility killers dont benefit from something that low mobility killers cant benefit from.
Exhaustion perks for survivors, overall, are pretty balanced. The killers who mainly have issues with them are killers that have issues even if there are no exhaustion perks in the match. And if they get tweaked to no longer have issues when no exhaustion perks are in the match, chances are, they can also deal if exhaustion perks are in the match.
Effectively saying, killers tend to be balanced around what is available for survivors, but not as much to what is available to killers. Even Myers and Trapper can somewhat deal with Lithe and Sprintburst, but soloq cant deal against a tunnelling Blight or Nurse who uses Grim due to lack of comms.1 -
because current ecosystem of this game is already punishing spreading hooks enough
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Then why give a reward based on spreading hooks that punishes survivors even more than they already are by losing an entire survivor?
Grim Embrace is designed to spread hooks and avoid tunnelling someone out. So why reward the exact opposite of what it is designed for, MORE than what it is being designed for?0
