General Discussions
General Discussions
How do we feel about the new Skull Merchant changes?
Comments
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Not a fan of hacking the drone giving aura reading. SWF can just have someone follow her around disabling them like Trapper and basically having constant aura on her. I'm sure the drone will control like crap for how easy it should be to hit conceptually.
No strong feelings towards Skull Merchant either way but I'm not a fan of designing everything towards the bottom of the barrel survivor players that can't be hard pressed to even think for 5 seconds while killers in this game are designed to be clunky and feel awful to use, especially on console.
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I really hate this changes so very much
They're straight up removing every single unique aspect I enjoyed and turned her into another dash type ability, with the removal of lock on stacks and clawtraps
Only changes I considered good are the removal of haste and hindered,
I honestly felt like we weren't listened in what she really needed and instead cater towards the people who despises her
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bottom of the barrel survivor players that can't be hard pressed to even think for 5 seconds while killers in this game are designed to be clunky and feel awful to use, especially on console.
If any of this were true soloQ wouldnt be in the state it is currently in. No killer is balanced towards the bottom barrel of survivor.
Skull merchant changes can only be better than what she is at the moment. People just need to give it a try and see how it plays out rather than doomsay.1 -
I’d rather have BHVR using their resources on other things like game balance, maps, reworking/updating the other killers, introducing new things (new game modes, new items/add-ons), etc instead of reworking Skull Merchant like 50 times
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On the topic of drone hacking, is there a different approach - putting aside aura reading - that you feel would fit into this interaction while still maintaining a risk vs. reward?
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The drone is already disabled and she can't use it, right? Aura reading on the killer is way too valuable for a team to have consistently. Aura reading needs to be easier for the killer to get than a survivor because a killer that can't get into chases quickly is going to lose the game badly. SWF will be able to constantly pre-run and have info on Skull Merchant just by having someone dedicated to hacking drones.
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Lets not balance this game "because SWF" please….
If she is still getting undetectable from putting her drones down and being in the drone radius then aura read from hacking wont be that much of an issue.8 -
Sadako (and Chucky to some extent) would beg to differ
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Did you ever play against a SWF with a strong looper using the original Object of Obsession? It sounds like you didn't
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Unnecessarily complex, if you need a wall of text to explain a power something is wrong. Survivors will continue disconecting against her, because what they actual hate is the area denial, even if it does nothing.
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I really like what we've seen so far. Her being able to control the drone sounds awesome, at least the idea sounds so much better than the drones simply hovering there waiting for a survivor to come by. It allows for more input on the killers' part and thus more skill expression. The new general detection passive sounds neat too, it's the kind of thing I've always believed she should be able to do. I've always thought of the Skull Merchant as a surveillance kind of killer, always carrying lots of intel on survivors' locations & such, so I'm really glad they decided to go for this approach.
If I had to point out anything, I'd argue that the odds of survivors failing the hacking as it is right now are very low, so maybe the mechanism of hacking itself should be changed into something that requires a little more skill, so that there is an actual chance survivors might fail to complete the hacking and Skull Merchant will benefit from that failure. Maybe make it a short Simon Says or show the whole combination for like a second before hiding it, nothing too crazy but that might catch the clumsy survivor off guard.
Overall, I think we need to see the actual rework happen before we can truly judge. But it's fair that Skull Merchant mains and enjoyers are providing feedback on what we've gotten so far, since the rework should be appealing to them first and foremost.
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I think it sounds promising. Reserving judgement until I see how she plays out on the PTB
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SWF doesn't need the aura read. They have comms.
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The "bottom barrel of survivors" get dominated by any killer regardless of what it is. The "bottom barrel of survivors" get dominated by perkless trappers.
Lets keep this thread though about Skull Merchant rather than whatever you are attempting here that goes for you and @xGodSendDeath
No killer should be balanced around what an SWF is capable of. Otherwise we would have a game full of nurses.
Aura read is fine in SMS case as she constantly has undetectable, and can time it if she sees her drone hacked. They havent even specified how long the Aura read is for, which I am guessing isnt 8 seconds (the duration of placing a drone).
Much like I have already said, changes will need play to figure out what needs fine tuning.
And per the notes, shes ALSO getting undetectable from taking over a drone. So this whole aura read worry seems to be more on the SM allowing it to happen rather than it being an issue at all. You essentially have only small possibilities of this occurence even happening in a match.-2 -
Somehow, worse than the original Freddy rework. At least that introduced his teleport, which was genuinely fitting to his character— It had at least one positive.
This is just infuriating. BHVR has shown that they have no interest in powers that aren't as generically appealing and homogenized as they can justify— Turning one of DbD's three trap killers into another projectile killer with no utility is an awful decision made with blatant disrespect for existing fans of her design. Why are we even releasing new killers at this point if they're all going to be another projectile or dash killer? Why are we getting rid of existing killers with unique functions in favor of Another Projectile?
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I think the point was that you don't want to balance the game around what a coordinated four man SWF might do because they are the outliers.
And when original OoO was a thing, the entire game was a lot more survivor sided than it is now. For better or worse, what things were like five years ago doesn't have a ton of relevance currently.
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I like it. No idea how she will be played in the end, but she was super-boring for me, so anything what makes her more exciting to play is a win for me.
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First off, don't assume my intentions. I was merely responding to what YOU said, which no killers are balanced around low skill survivors, which they are. Pig for example has been nerfed numerous times for being a pubstomper, and Sadako was reworked due to being a pub stomper.
Second, the reward for disabling her drones should be just that, disabling them. There is not really a reason that she needs to have her aura read as well, as having her power disabled is enough of a punishment. We also don't even know if she is going to have her undetectable from placing her drones, as they only mention undetectable being gained from operating the drones.2 -
This particular design choice with this killer's rework deliberately increases the gulf between SWF and solo queue when people are actively encouraging the devs to bridge the gap between the two. It's going to suck playing against SWF with this killer even more than it already does
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- Pig and Sadako are not balanced around low skill survivors. Again, go make a new account, play perkless on a trapper and youll stomp. Lets focus this thread on SM these talking points are going nowhere and I think you have a wildly different metric for "low skill survivors" than anyone I am aware of.
- This was one of her problems to begin with. Disabling them did not really benefit anyone, as she can replace multiple drones even with a designated person doing it, faster than you can disable them. As well as, overlapping 3 drones sometimes in areas, making it still a 3 gen holder after the expose changes.
There is no notes saying undetectable is going for placing a trap. So you cant just sit there and doomsay about changes that arent even said to happen. She has undetectable for 8 seconds placing a drone, as well as from the notes taking OVER a drone.
Again needs some play, stick to SM though in this thread. Talking about other things can be for a separate thread.
-3 - Pig and Sadako are not balanced around low skill survivors. Again, go make a new account, play perkless on a trapper and youll stomp. Lets focus this thread on SM these talking points are going nowhere and I think you have a wildly different metric for "low skill survivors" than anyone I am aware of.
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The survivor successfully disabled part of her power, denying her its use and any pressure it would do. Why do they need yet another benefit on top of that? The reward is the power denied, the risk is the killer can take advantage while you are vulnerable. If that isn't enough to incentivise certain players that is a player problem.
And in the same way, the killer is already punished with the loss of their power, why do they need to be punished even more on top of that? The survivor reward should be denying the power and nothing else. The ever stacking punishments you heap on killers are a fundamental problem that really needs to stop because its what causes so many problems that you have to then keep bandaiding.
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- Yeah, if you smurf you will stomp, like I said though, bottom of the barrel survivors don't get placed with skilled killers. And it is undeniable that Pig and Sadako are balanced around low skill survivors. Sadako's entire second rework was because she pub stomped. And Pig, despite being one of the weakest killers has gotten constant nerfs because she gets high kill rates at low MMR. It certainly isn't because she is so oppressive against people who know what they are doing.
2. Given that they haven't made mention of getting undetectable with your drones, yet they did mention getting it from controlling your drones, I think it is fairly safe to assume they have gotten rid of it, just like they have with haste, hindered, and presumably deep wound.
Hacking her drone means she can't use it, and given that drone passively will do basically nothing, not allowing her to use them is a reward enough. Does Singularity need to be revealed or be in some way impacted when his bipods are disabled? No of course not, disabling them is the reward, and it should be the same for SM.
4 - Yeah, if you smurf you will stomp, like I said though, bottom of the barrel survivors don't get placed with skilled killers. And it is undeniable that Pig and Sadako are balanced around low skill survivors. Sadako's entire second rework was because she pub stomped. And Pig, despite being one of the weakest killers has gotten constant nerfs because she gets high kill rates at low MMR. It certainly isn't because she is so oppressive against people who know what they are doing.
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- This just buries the hatchet here you are dead wrong about bottom of the barrel survivors and balance:
Lets keep to things that are based in fact not whatever you are coming up with about killers and their balance. As well as keep this thread about SM.
Again you are wrong about killers and their balance. Just want to drive that one home here. I didnt even have tIII perks on the P100 group up there by the way.
2. You cant say something is going to be unbalanced based on nothing. You are literally assuming the sky is falling without a shred of evidence (like the assumption on low tier survivors you made above, which was proven wrong as well)
Please, lets play it out. Actually see what happens in game, take what we KNOW not what we assume. And things will move forward in this game.-2 - This just buries the hatchet here you are dead wrong about bottom of the barrel survivors and balance:
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Your gonna give the devs new ideas about nerfing Singularity now...
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P100 doesn't mean skill, remember?
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This game doesn't revolve around fully coordinated SWFs, just stop demand to balance everything around a pool of 2% players and castrate the potential of survivors accordingly, get over it.
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@ChuckingWong you are being disagreed with. you have stated your opinion, "we should wait until the PTB". this is your opinion. you do not have to re-state your opinion every time someone disagrees with you, it has been stated and it is on the record. please have the decorum required to allow the thread to be about something other than your sole opinion, which lots of people disagree with, including myself. you do not need to make extremely large posts reiterating your opinion every time someone doesn't agree with it.
i personally would rather the developers not waste their time on this rework. i don't want it to go as far as a PTB, because once this reaches PTB stage, it's going to be irreversible. we were lucky that the twins rework happened to be absolutely ridiculously insanely overpowered in a way that is fully game-breaking so that PTB got reversed. skull merchant won't be so lucky.
skull merchant is, at time of posting:
the only killer that is both trap killer and stealth killer
the only trap killer that doesn't need to camp basement or hooked survivors to be strong
the only trap killer who can use her power mid-chase without the survivor just leaving immediately
she is, for all intents and purposes, the only successfully implemented trap killer.
let's not delete that because she doesn't have mass appeal, ok? it's not fair to the people who love her just because survivors refuse to learn or adapt.
take her back to her first rework, but keep the scan lines as permanently visible, and then see how things go from there.
maybe survivors would be more equipped to deal with trap killers if there were more than three of them? maybe survivors would be more equipped to deal with trap killers if trapper and hag were modernised to actually be good in current DbD? let's not turn skull merchant into a dash killer because some survivors are bad at the game, it would be a huge loss to remove the ONLY stealth+trap killer in the entire roster to make her a worse pinhead.
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I have no opinion on it because i was one of the people who despised Skull Merchant from the very MOMENT she entered the game.
Of course, as of now, SM isn't that bad to play against as long as you're paying attention, but back then she was god awful lol.
Though, I'm not surprised to see the amount of Doom Posting from killer mains, it's expected for those who probably still play that THING.Also, for the love of god, please stop saying "SWF" this & "SWF" that. Any competent Survivor, With or without a team could figure out how to use Aura Reading to their Advantage, SWF isn't the end all be all.
Sheesh.5 -
- Again, I am literally just responding to what YOU said. And if you HONESTLY believe that NO killers are balanced around lower skill level survivors then I don't know what to tell you besides I heavily disagree. Some killers are balanced around higher skill levels and some around lower, and I think that is quite obvious, but you are entitled to your opinion. I could also go take 3 screenshots of 3 lost games and it would have just as much weight as your screenshots.
2. You are making just as many assumptions about the changes as anyone else in this thread. Let people discuss things without this attitude that no one is allowed have an opinion until the changes are in the game already. I am fairly confident that BHVR put out these early ideas so that people could discuss them and give feedback.
2 - Again, I am literally just responding to what YOU said. And if you HONESTLY believe that NO killers are balanced around lower skill level survivors then I don't know what to tell you besides I heavily disagree. Some killers are balanced around higher skill levels and some around lower, and I think that is quite obvious, but you are entitled to your opinion. I could also go take 3 screenshots of 3 lost games and it would have just as much weight as your screenshots.
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Oh no D:
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After using an EMP, Singularity's programming gets reset and he remembers he was never suppose to harm the crew.
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- Yea I mean there is no single killer in this game, balanced around the lowest tier or "bottom of the barrel" survivor.
I refuted what you said with possibly the most unnecessary example above, p100s arent present in "bottom of the barell". So you need to change the definition of low tier or bottom of the barrel, because the opponents I have in this screenshots aint it.
I get the cope about p100 not meaning everything but bottom of the barrell and low tier survivors dont even have p10s, much less p100s.
Again you are just digging this hole deeper than it needs to go. Pig is not balanced around those survivors, and she is on the weaker end of things for sure. But you are dead wrong in this case.
2. Its not in the notes, I could easily say something just as silly as she is going to get expose back to drones. Stick with what you know please.
The amount of undetectable with what we know, is going to make this aura read a non issue.No thats not my opinion.
Thats my opinion on one of the changes and interactions of aura read happening, not her entire kit.
I have to restate this as there are two people in here which are confused by this. To the point they are making up changes that arent even listed to happen.
Id like work on her for sure, and any change, especially the ones listed, are better than what she currently is. The drones should be bidirectional for a start and not this one scan line BS they have going. (Which its getting back read the notes)
Shes still a trap killer based on the notes. So I don't know what the whole thing about dash killers you have going on at the bottom is. You still have drones, they still have scan and reveal, you still have all that system.
(Which it still has read the notes)
She is still a trap killer.
Read. The. Notes. Please-7 - Yea I mean there is no single killer in this game, balanced around the lowest tier or "bottom of the barrel" survivor.
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she can take control of the drones, and use them to
and here's the fun part
DASH INTO SURVIVORS
where the drones explode, and injure the survivor.
just like viktor, a dash killer. or like wesker, a dash killer. or like blight, a dash killer. or like billy, a dash killer. she just briefly takes control of a drone, and then plays viktor wesker billy blight, and dashes into the survivors. like a dash killer would.
don't condescend to me about reading the notes. why don't you try comprehending them first?
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Choose to, not have to.
Please. Read. The. Notes.
IN ADDITION, to the CHOOSE TO, take control of the drones.-9 -
These changes are terrible and completely ruin everything about her.
Nothing more needs to be said.
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but you can't claw trap any more. so scanning the survivors does nothing except tell you where they are. and then you have no stealth to sneak up on them. wouldn't it be so much easier to just pilot the drone and crash it into them? it would. because she's a dash killer now.
oh and if you don't, then the survivors will hack your drone, and then they can see your aura. in addition to you not being able to hit them.
"you can choose to"… lmao.
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Where are you getting this no stealth thing from? Where is that listed in the notes? Screen shot for me please
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- A small handful of games proves nothing, just because a killer is balanced around lower MMR/lower skilled survivors does not mean it is literally impossible to win at a higher level. I have a hard time believing you aren't just ragebaiting at this point since you seem to be incapable of listening, understanding anyone's points, or being civil.
2. "The amount of undetectable with what we know, is going to make this aura a non issue."
The only undetectable we know of for sure is her getting it when she is piloting her drone. You are making assumptions in that she gets free undetectable on demand when NOTHING of the sort is mention in the notes. Take your own advice and
Read. The. Notes. Please
3 - A small handful of games proves nothing, just because a killer is balanced around lower MMR/lower skilled survivors does not mean it is literally impossible to win at a higher level. I have a hard time believing you aren't just ragebaiting at this point since you seem to be incapable of listening, understanding anyone's points, or being civil.
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Here's how a killer gets balanced for low level survivors:
Killers: Wow, gen speeds are INSANE. 3 gens get done at my first hook! That's so unfair that survivors have 60% of their objective done while I get one hook!
Survivors: Holding M1 on a gen is boring. The only thing fun is the chase. Give survivors more objectives don't make gens take longer.
Developers: Here's Sadako, Pinhead, Skull Merchant, etc.
Survivors: Your average survivor doesn't understand how these killers work! They don't know what to do!!! Please rework them!!
Developers: Rework
Gen speeds stay the same1 -
- Again I gave an example, hard proof that youre wrong about low tier survivors and killers being balanced around them so keep up whatever narrative you have. So much so that I went to the extreme end and provided screens with no gen regress, and not even tIII perks. Against people that have prestige 50+, these aren't bottom of the barrel survivors.
Maybe you struggle on pig/sadako and think this is why, who knows. But fact of the matter is, no killer in this game is balanced around low tier or "bottom of the barrel" survivors. Its hard to take anything you post seriously.
P100s dont exist in low tier survivors. Getting to 20k points in a game, hell even 15k points in a game, dont exist in low tier survivors.
Rage bait here seems to be coming from the other direction. - So you just assume changes happen? Even when they arent listed?
Rage bait here seems to be coming from the other direction pt II.
Again I can make the same assumption you are attempting to do, by saying:
"oh yeah and expose is probably coming back to the drones"
Theres nothing in the notes saying you are losing undetectable on releasing a drone. 0. Nada.
Take what you know. Read the notes. Not assume random changes that aren't even listed.
-6 - Again I gave an example, hard proof that youre wrong about low tier survivors and killers being balanced around them so keep up whatever narrative you have. So much so that I went to the extreme end and provided screens with no gen regress, and not even tIII perks. Against people that have prestige 50+, these aren't bottom of the barrel survivors.
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Yes, not everyone is a god-tier player but only killers are expected to be when it comes to balance and character design
Not at all how things are designed. Good bait though
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Yeah, there is no point in discussing anything with you. You are either trolling or are not actually reading what is written by anyone in this thread.
Assuming you aren't trolling, here is some advice. Try listening to other people, reading what they write, and being more civil. It may help you understand what people are actually saying and help you have an actual discussion, instead of you just getting angry at everyone for disagreeing with you.3 -
Crashing drones into survivors seems fun, but with a charge up to it will it really be affective with loops or open areas only? It's already insanely hard aiming the Houndmasters dog on the 2nd dash with such a small window and narrow hit box really don't need to that to the drones .Really i would like her to reverted back to her 2nd version but works little differently. Ranting out an idea
Haste and hinder gone completely. Traps still injure maybe deep wounds. She doesn't gain stealth anymore when placing drones, when a survivor has an active claw trap on them they suffer from oblivious instead as well as show their location on her radar. Running into a drone beam recharges battery instead of haste/hinder. Visually change the drone beams cut them in half horizontal instead of a cone so they can see that they could duck under the beam and be fine. Hacking minigame be slightly harder instead letting them take it slowly and safely and on fails the drone explodes on their face with injure and loud notifications for killer.
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The devs literally balance it around swf though - people are going to provide feedback as such.
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Impossible though. SWF that know that you need to do generators to escape and can communicate where the killer is are so rare that you'll basically never run into it!!!
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ah those werre awful times
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It gets rid of the old SM that was hated and at least tries to give her some new life, so it's good.
I'll reserve ultimate judgment for whenever we see footage of it.
I do not envy BHVR in this. The SM mains will never be happy unless there's a return to how SM used to be. The community outside of SM mains won't be happy unless she's completely different and BHVR probably won't be happy until they have a design that doesn't cause people to DC or suicide or quit the game in some other way.
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I like it because you can control the drones, and the info aspect sounds fun. That was enough for me to say im very excited in the survey.
I am starting to see the problems with it though. The drones injuring does make it sound too much like twins. She is also lacking stealth i think, unless this version keeps her 24m terror radius i guess.
And ofc i do think it's sad for skull merchant mains. But personally i never liked skull merchant gameplay, because she can't control drones. Controllable drones is all i want really.-1 -
Does anyone think BHVR designs around both SWF and Solo'q?
Are we asking the right question? I'd rather "What do you balance around, BHVR?' and then get a response. All you are doing is speculating, 100%. Everyone.
So, hopefully a mod can come in and do ANY sort of clarifying. UGH
-2 -
Operating a drone sounds like fun and I am excited about it, but I have a few concerns.
First, I understand that a certain amount of time is required before the drone can be operated, but this time seems unnecessary.
It depends on the operability of the drone and the time required, but the lag time before the drone can be operated makes it difficult to use during chases.Secondly, the drone breaks when it hits an obstacle. I have previously seen something to the effect that objects that appear to be flying, such as Rich's fly, are not actually flying, and it is impossible to actually fly an object.
If that is the case, this drone also looks like it is flying but it is not actually flying, right?
In that case, the survivor would only have to climb over the window to completely disable the drone.If the drone needs to be installed and it takes time before it can be operated, and when it thinks it can be operated, it goes over the window and completely blocks its ability, then there is no point in operating the drone.
Also, as others have said, changing what is operated in this way is similar to the Twins, so it is likely to be backward compatible with the Twins.
I can't think of any other good ideas, but would it be difficult to create a hacking drone instead of an attacking drone?
For example, when setting up a drone, you could select a window or board and hack it to make it unusable.
In this case, it seems to me that it would be a killer like no other, which could also give her characteristics as a drone while maintaining her original killer ability as a trapping type.
Of course, it would require delicate adjustments, and this is just a random idea that I just came up with, but I felt that with careful thought, this could be a killer that could be enjoyed by both camps.Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
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