Feedback and Suggestions
Feedback and Suggestions
Legion's upcoming changes are a great step in the right direction, but it needs just a bit more.
I suggest reducing his fatigue duration to 2.25. This will make him legitimately a dangerous threat at pallet/window loops, without actually turning him into Nurse. Counterplay would be holding W to the next loop (or running a long, safe loop where he can't hit you even at 2.25)
Legion's power is a number game. It's not something inherently unbalanceable. There's nothing in its inherent design that makes it flawed. The upcoming reduction to 2.5 fatigue duration means you're able to use it to some degree as a chase/anti-loop power, but it's still not super good at it. In my opinion 2.25 would be much better at giving Legion an actual power in loops without being overly oppressive.
The issue is that he's so good at getting people injured that also being semi-decent at getting them down would be a step too far, understandably so. Legion would be stronger than Kaneki if he could vault a pallet and down someone every single time. So you have to play it safe by finding a middle ground which is possible by adjusting the duration of fatigue and the movement speed.
I think the upcoming buffs will do a lot for Legion. He won't be a great killer, but he'll feel a lot better to play. If they want him to be good, it is possible. Reduce his fatigue duration to 2.25 and I promise you that Legion will genuinely become very dangerous around pallets and windows while having much more counterplay and interactivity than Nurse.
They're already reducing the fatigue to 2.5 - it's not like 2.25 is a significant difference. It just makes some hits a bit easier. He's still more escapable than Nurse by a long shot. I'm down to being wrong and seeing that 2.25 is somehow much more overpowered than 2.50, but there's no way to tell without testing it out.
From my 5 years of experience and thousands of hours playing Legion, the conclusion I have come to is that 2.25 fatigue duration (along with the rest of his upcoming buffs) are all he needs to be a balanced killer. His power is not fundamentally flawed or in need of any kind of rework.
I genuinely believe Legion with a 2.25 fatigue duration will solidly be an upper B tier killer. Not quite A, but damn solid in good hands.
Discuss
Comments
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Boy legion is going to be THE noob stomper. He was already bad, but with those buffs…
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Counterpoint, Hag, Plague, Vecna and Pig exist.
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And Sadako
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The last stats released showed Legion at a 58% killrate. So it will be interesteing for sure to see whhere the buffs put them at, as they're already in a pretty healthy spot killrate wise. Time will tell!
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blight without addons has 2.5s fatigue in basic and 2.0s with the addon, I don't understand why legion with its much weaker power has 3s or will have only 2.5s and has tons of restrictions like the inability to see blood
So yes, legion need a little bit more love1 -
Agreed completely. 2.25 fatigue duration is legit all he needs. He won't be A tier, maybe not even B tier, but definitely B tier in good hands. It will also raise his skill cap via knowing which pallets to vault and when to do it in order to get a down. He won't completely invalidate loops or pallets at 2.25 fatigue. Why does Blight get to have 2.5 fatigue while also having a lethal power? Why does Nurse have 2 second fatigue despite not giving a single ######### about loops anyway?
Legion at 2.25 fatigue duration will be perfectly fine imo. I'm down to being wrong of course, but obviously I do not have the means to playtest the suggestion myself.
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I think I would want to see more of how he plays with the 2.5 seconds before we talk about reducing it further. 3 → 2.5 seconds is already a significant buff, and this is coming with a higher movement speed during fatigue as well, the duration isn't the only thing that changed here.
I'm not opposed to revisiting Legion later if the fatigue still feels underwhelming with these changes, but it's too soon to make that determination imo.
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I would suggest that Legion have less fatigue for each hit in Frenzy. So, if you hit one person, you get a 0.1s reduction in fatigue, two people 0.2s, etc. This would make chaining hits more rewarding even when you not get the 5th hit.
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That's not going to do anything. There's no point reducing his fatigue for each hit since the fatigue is supposed to allow survivors time to reach a pallet or a loop, which doesn't matter if they're the 5th hit down. Sure it'll buff him but it's not necessary. We should avoid implementing power where it isn't needed. Just make the fatigue duration always 2.25.
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The fatigue duration primarily affects which pallets/windows Legion can potentially get a free hit at when vaulting. Like I outlined in the first post, you have to be careful with the duration because if it isn't long enough, then you just get hit whenever he vaults with no counterplay. But Nurse's is only 2 seconds and Blight's has always been 2.5 despite being infinitely more lethal than Legion. Therefore 2.25 doesn't seem like a big deal on paper but it would obviously need to be playtested on windows and pallets to see if it's balanced.
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Yeeeeeikes, friend… 🤨
Question, what Killers "take skill" to you and therefore "deserve" buffs? Why do you believe Killers made for more casual minded and newer players don't deserve any buffs? I can't understand making the game worse for people who don't want to play Killers that require studying a power bible or who are new.
Imagine if someone said "Survivors do not deserve to have perks made for new players, like Windows, buffed because they don't take any skill to use or activate." That would be absurd, right?
Edit: Downvoting me does not make my question go away: WHY do Killers that are easier to learn not deserve to be buffed for people who want to play easier Killers to enjoy? Why should we have to play more complex Killers just to win consistently? Why punish people who say, like Legion by never giving them any buffs? What if the player has a disability and can only play these Killers effectively because others are too complex for them, why don't they deserve to have Killers that are effective and feel good to play?
Seriously answer me this, don't just downvote and leave like a coward.Post edited by LockerLurk on0 -
Freddy, across all 3 versions, has been the biggest noob stomper ever. There's a reason he was in top 5 kill rate even post nerf for the original rework.
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yes. And it's not very healthy. I mean… He is weak and he should get buffs. But I'd go about it via nerfing his first "guaranteed" hit and adding brand new mechanics, that help him with injured hits.
That way he will be a bit worse against brand new players, but way better against skilled players that can manage M1-only killer (which current Legion is after 1st hit).
To clarify again. I don't think Legion is fine. He should get some help. But I think he shouldn't be "generally" buffed, because he would be impossible to deal with in low elo while still quite unplayable in higher elo.
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If you're a casual player you shouldn't care about winning and therefore shouldn't be asking for buffs, and windows just corrects for having to memorize things which is more of an inconvenience than skill
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Theres a difference between playing legion vs those other ones, while they are all noob stompers legions by far the easiest to play
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2.25 fatigue would feel really bad to play against, there just wouldn't be enough distance to make it to anything meaningful, plus it would probably feel quite bad to go against on certain loops, like a guaranteed hit and that's not good. I think the 2.5s fatigue from the PTB will feel excellent and good enough once they fix the animation for it.
What I would like to see instead though is more QOL buffs and other general buffs, like, being able to see blood pools in frenzy, and detect oblivious survivors with killer instinct (but you still wouldn't get any detection when you as legion are undetectable). Stuff like that. Also I'm not sure if it was fixed in the PTB, but making it so you have full collision after vaulting a pallet or window in frenzy, so survivors can't run inside your character model after you vault and make themselves really annoying to track, which is just feels bad to play against as the killer.
Post edited by MrMori on2 -
Do… do you hear yourself right now?
Why should casual players have to accept miserable rounds, often many a night, when they just want to have fun? Why is "winning" the rubicon for if someone is casual or not? Why do casual players have to accept losing as the cost of their fun because non casuals want to sweat all over them for their 200000th win in their Blight streak? Why should my casual SWF be punished because a Deathslinger wants to slug for a 4k? Why should my casual Ghostface be faced with team after team after team of high level players he can't handle with his kit just because I won a handful of games? That doesn't track. At all.
Casual players enjoy winning sometimes, too. It is not fun to be curbstomped nor is it fun to be the one curbstomping, I don't care how chill or seriously you take this game, the issue is not wins versus losses no matter how you spin it: we can all agree that curbstomp fights with no challenge or chance to win are not any fun, win or loss.
Shouldn't be asking for buffs? So casual players are never allowed to point out issues with the game just because they're casual?
I think you're a troll, friend, usually bait is more believable than this…1 -
Windows allows you to not have to learn tileset layouts to know where possible pallets may spawn. That's not "convenience", that's not "luxury", that's quite literally dumbing the game down with a perk. You're coping.
With that said, I don't think Windows of Opportunity is overpowered but it is annoying that it prevents you from needing to learn tilesets and pallet spawn locations which should be an element of mastery for both Survivor and Killer. Memorizing the layout of maps is a learnable, practicable skill that makes you a better player whether you want to admit it or not.
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Like I said in an earlier comment, it would just need to be playtested. Comparison in paper to Nurse and Blight makes 2.25 fatigue duration make sense. It could be overbearing but it would need to be tested around loops and pallets and the team would need to collectively come to the opinion about whether or not it's balanced.
I'm just putting forward a suggestion, that's all.
Post edited by Leon_Loves_Cheryl on-2 -
Do you hear yourself right now? Why do casual players who say they only care about fun have any reason to care about winning? It's just copium excuses to try and get killers that don't take any skill buffed so they can win without putting in the effort. If you want to win games then play a killer that takes skill, and if you're just playing for fun then don't complain about losing games. You can't have your cake and eat it too, but sure, brush off my point as bait just because you disagree, that's mature
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Nah, it's convenience. Memorization doesn't make you smarter so removing the need for memorization doesn't make you dumber, whether you want to admit it or not
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Being casual about winning doesn't mean needing to tolerate losing constantly. Your logic is not conducive to any kind of argument.
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Again you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to win then play a killer that takes skill, if you don't want to because you find them too difficult you have noone to blame for your losses but yourself.
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Lettuchia?
This game is not about winning. That doesn't mean that a casual player should just have to tolerate losing 9/10 games with their SWF and consider that a "fun night" of rounds, nor does it mean that they can't be annoyed the game's MMR makes that the case just because they won the last ten rounds the night before. The fact, like it or not, is that regardless of your mindset in the game, losing due to things you can't control like MMR mismatches or getting a bad map for your Killer is not fun, and losing repeatedly is extra not fun. Is it fun for you to lose just because you take winning seriously? No?
Then why do you assume it's fun for a chill SWF who runs non-meta to also lose? Why do you assume it's fun for someone who rolled in with Trapper for a daily to lose? Why would it be fun for a random SWF who is just vibing to suddenly get that 10k hour multi slowdown HellBlight and barely get a round they die so fast? Why would it be fun for someone who casually mains Pig to get slapped around by strong team after strong team just because of the time they logged on, the maps they got, or having won the last few games? Why is it okay that I can be Memeolas Cage and get a Nurse who wants to four man slug and thus no game, how is that fun?It's not, obviously. And you're asking people to be OK with these heinous mismatches and never ask for anything to make the game better for everyone just because "You're casual, so stop whining and feed yourself to the grinder"? Come on, now… like, be so for real, friend.
Losing isn't fun. Thinking that losing becomes fun just because someone takes the game less seriously is a really tone deaf take, considering this game caters more to the casual experience of "you win some you lose some". You're intended to lose some, not win forever, but for some reason this community has decided winning is the end all be all. So now, "casual" is a filthy word that some use for "bad", which means, Lettuchia, what you're actually saying is "if you're bad or choose any character/perk that's not meta, you deserve to have a crappy experience by losing to alpha chads who win a lot, like me." That's what you're saying, that the casual experience in this casual-minded horror tag game does not matter and you want things to be MORE competitive with stricter MMR.
I don't think you would like your games much if you always forever played against people that were exactly at or above your skill level, though…
Having to tolerate occasional losses is part of the game but the idea that you should not care about something that feels bad AT ALL if you're casual makes no sense. I can get bit by mosquitoes in my backyard in a place known for lots of mosquitoes, that doesn't mean I have to tolerate the fact that the mosquitoes are there and can't ask that my county spray for them. A curbstomp mismatch is the same, it sucks to experience no matter how seriously you take this game or what side you prefer.
There's no spin here except the spin you're giving, this argument is so pointless and tiresome. Because losing isn't fun, period.Post edited by BoxGhost on0 -
Well said. Too bad you didn't quote her so she won't get a notification. But everything you said here is on point.
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"You lost the debate, you have a bad take, let it go." I literally explained how you're wrong on everything you said already, YOU'RE the one that needs to get over yourself. YOU are the one with a bad take. You're a child.
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Genuinely, like GENUINELY crazy how you're gonna keep saying I'm being irrational and that I need to get overmyself, when I've done nothing but debunk everything you've said and you just resort to being a child saying "but the devs said so" "i'm right you're wrong." Guess I shouldn't expect more from a supposed dredge player but just, wow
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We're getting way off topic. Personally this will be my last comment on this tangent (can't speak for anyone else)
You said Windows of Opportunity is a "convenience" perk and using it doesn't "correct" for anything, it just helps. Like any perk, it's an aid. What we're trying to tell you is that if you learned the game and memorized tilesets, you won't need it as much. Memorizing and learning tile sets is absolutely a skill, it's an aspect you can improve on just like 50/50's and looping and whatnot. No one was judging you for using Windows before you preemptively tried to justify it which just betrays a sense of insecurity. Nobody's attacking you. Clearly you subconsciously realize the nature of the perk.Anyway guys. Legion changes. They're good and I like them. I'd like just a tad more of a reduction on his fatigue but overall I'm incredibly happy with these changes (I dreamed of a changelist like this ever since his fatigue was 4 seconds long at base.)
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Just looking at the popularity of Legion, I can see why the developers can't change them. We have kaneki as an example now. It would be another nuke.
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I think Ghoul's balanced just fine personally. They have to use their power intelligently to cut you off and M1 you. They can't kill you any other way. You can't nerf him in a way that's fair. You can't increase his fatigue after he cancels his power because that disincentivizes the coolest ways to play with (and against) him, which is attempting to cut off pathing and pallets/windows. Sure, if you're out in the open he can kill you easily, but the same applies to many other killers (Wesker, Billy, etc.)
He's fine.
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i played on a survivior for 2 days since i ever toched sruviviors, even invite my friends to play. Now im think i know why they are mad. 50/50. I think his slide should be cutten in half, this would solve his problem with ez downs. The ghouls that dont know how 2 use it dying tring to chase me. And even good ghouls cant sometimes reach me when i realise that would be cutten just used my lithe.
And im not talking about his new apron addon, it lies. (Reduces slide for 100% instead of 50%)-2 -
there are only 2 things i want
- being able to choose mixtape regardless of addon
- the chase theme playing during the whole duration of frenzy not just when in chase
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You're calling me a troll just because I disagree with you and in doing so are objectively attacking me
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I really like the buffs they've gotten this patch <3
Post edited by Rokku_Rorru on1
