http://dbd.game/killswitch
Haste and Hindered changes
I am gonna make a more concrete version of this to put into the feedback section, this is purely to discuss and have the community influence my opinion before I put it in feedback:
On one end, absolutely needed, Hindered stacking and having Hope stack with Bloodpact, Teamwork Power of Two can legit make people impossible/too easy to catch. On the other end, it makes a LOT of killers and perks kinda bad.
So 2 things I am hoping to see will either come with the current patch or in a nearby future patch (and I mean nearby-nearby, like the mid-chapter after the anniversary chapter at best)
1. Rework haste and hindered perks to have better individual values
2. Add 2 additional effects that work like haste and hindered, but CAN stack.
1 is pretty obvious, some haste effects are simply not strong enough for their requirement, but that's also exactly the reason behind 2. If you split current haste perks and hindered perks into 2 sections its both easier to keep it balanced while also making it easy to switch perks between effects. Aka, lets say you make Batteries Not Included a haste perk right now, but then its terrible because 5% sporadically isnt enough, but 5.5% near generator area's is too much(ofcourse, just as an example), you can swap it to the non-haste haste side where it remains 5% but CAN stack with other speed effects.
Perks like Boon Dark Theory, Teamwork Power of Two, Play With Your Food, Batteries Not Included, NOED, Devour Hope but also effects like Bloodlust, basekit BT, Clown's invigoration bottles, Trapper's trap reset haste boost and Legion's BFF addon could be added to the non-haste haste list.
While the on-hit effect, Sprintburst, Hope, Bloodpact, Guardian, Machine Learning(currently the only killer perk I would put here based on current numbers, but realistically I would expect Unbound, Game Afoot and Furtive Chase to be doubled/tripled in number and join this list) would be unstackable with other perks on the haste list(but could still stack with the non-haste haste list).
It would be easier to balance due to either increasing the number of a non-haste perk and putting it on the haste list, or reduce the number of a haste perk and put it on the non-haste list. The same would be true for hinderance. As an example, I would 100% put Clown's hindered bottles and Forced Hesitation on the regular hindered list, but I see no reason to not stack the hindered bottles with Nothing But Misery and Knockout and put those on the non-hindered hindered list.
I legitimately believe thats the proper future of these effects, just having them all be treated the same creates an awkward balance where certain perks are too easy to trigger when they stack and thus need lower numbers, leading to them never being used, or certain perks are too hard to trigger for when they do stack and no numbers being high enough.
Comments
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I mean killer have BK hast buff for loosing it called BL hast perk still stack on killer because Bal is still in the game when it activated this is purely a nerf to survivors and barley and
killer at all
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in terms of meta perks, sure. But Play With Your Food, NOED, Batteries Included, Machine Learning, Devour Hope, Furtive Chase, Unbound, all perks that are now mutually exclusive with each other, not even talking about Clown, who has 50% of his power deny all those perks entirely making it effectively inaccessible to him.
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All this perks were balanced around the fact that they could stack with one another, so while its true that many would be bad now and in isolation, with this change I bet that we will see lots of changes coming and the numbers going up surprisingly high here and there. Batteries included might give suddenly a +10% speed boost around completed gens, which is now a significant boost, but because it doesn't stack with anything else, its probably okay. If what if Machine Learning gave a +12% boost? With the way it has to setup, I liked to use it a lot during the time it got buffed and comboed it with Rapid Brutality. With it being such a setup perk and gens rarely getting done one after another but in tandem, I don't remember a single instance where it proged more then two times in one game.
Without stacking, the perks new itentity will be centered around its core case, and thats a good thing.
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They kill the haste build, but didn't do anything about Gen'speed.
The generator speed should be reduced, If they remove meta haste and hindered.
Now M1 killer is dying because they is slow.
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You cant adjust genspeeds anymore, unless you're willing to kill gen regression perks as a whole to do at most 5% damage, and perks like thanatophobia to add at most 5% slowdown.
Genspeeds are fine as is. High tier killers absolutely do not need regression perks, they could solely use aura perks and win games. The issue lies at low mobility, and its difficult to improve low mobility without accidentally buffing high mobility. My personal wish is that, presuming that Wraith and Spirit will have their increased lunge rates be considered M2's, m1's will simply add bloodlust. Each hit gets you in the next tier up to tier 3, and downing someone reduces it to 0 again (so you wont be able to abuse it).
It would be a good rework for bloodlust, which is kinda out of date as it is now (it is rewarding bad killers who make bad choices, reworking it to give speed after a hit would reward good choices instead). It would bring back hit and run a little bit, breaking pallets or getting stunned no longer resets it, so it would IMO be a good change that could help low mobility killers gain a bit of mobility in the game.
But no, no more slowing down gens. They are already a snoozefest. Slowing them down any more will just lead to players leaving the game. No one wants to sit at a screen pressing spacebar every 5 seconds while waiting for a 100 second loading bar to be finished, only to be interrupted and do it all over again.-1 -
I get what you're saying but another concern could be the downside to this.
If they buff all the perks to be strong as if they were stacked before, then players will have their "unfair" hard to counter haste at every activation, as opposed to having lots of small levels of haste throughout the match but only have really high haste at a few points when the activation conditions align right.
In short I suspect BHVR is aware of this and haste will never be as good as it was before while also ruining a lot of fun builds that were not even that good most of the time. In short, these changes you want to see in order to balance out the removal of stacking are probably never coming.
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A problem arises that many Haste perks are situationally conditioned.
That is why people usually stack them with other haste perks to create both utility for survivor or killer.
As the OP mentioned, them limiting haste perks individually will do nothing but create more situationally used perks that used to interact with each other but now no longer do that.
People using Blood Pact with other haste perks do not warrant a nerf to haste related perks given that these perks (let's use Blood Pact as an example) indicates that you have to be near the obsession to gain value. Let's say a duo SWF or a full man SWF (one has Blood Pact with other haste related perks, alongside the other - I've seen Cru5h with a similar build). You have two survivors predominately in chase, they are practically interlocked and intertwined the whole game as they need to be near one another meaning less gen pressure as a whole as it means these two survivors are together and less gen progress is on the map in general.
I don't mind this change as now in @Defnotmeghead words they won't be "catchable" but it pushes more people into running more meta related perks instead of sh*ts and giggles for a YouTube channel.
So, by all means if a person thinks haste stacking is broken on survivor with these niche combos - these perks that are used (formerly in tandem with others) will be weaker individually. No one will use Blood Pact or the Teamwork perk because NO ONE hardly used them other than for meme worthy videos.
It wouldn't affect me, but I as a person who likes build variety and creativity feel for people who run these perks for albeit situational advantages and gives killer the boost on their side as you have two people willingly playing around to not be "catchable" while trading off progression in the game. Again, the perks are hardly used and makes Behavior have to fundamentally buff these perks individually and we all know how long it takes Behavior to buff perks in their application and usability with many, many, many perks that still need to be addressed.
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I will answer you two together, as this are some interesting points you brought up.
Yes, in the past, a lot of perks were extremely niche and situational and this was what kept people from using them in the first place. You had to go out of your way to make use of a lot of this perks and they only worked by combining them with other haste perks, in order to boost their effect high enough to be noticable. But when you get a Rapid Brutality/Machine Learning/Batteries Included train going, it allowed you to ignore any mindgames and outplays and just bulldoze a loop and smack any survivor, no matter their skill level. Thats fun! But you had so many moving parts that needed to be at the right place at the right time, that most people never bothered with it and for every cool bulldozer moment, you probably had 5 or even 10 or 15 situations, where one of the more general useful perks had served you better in any shape or form.
I get the concern that Skitten brings up and how it might feel unfair on paper, to have players always go against the fullpowered version of such a combo, but hear me out:
1) we don't know the numbers yet, but while I suspect that the numbers will go up, they probably will be in the middle of the range of such builts, where the perks start to become useful on its own, but not utterly gamebreaking. Taking my example, a Batterie included would give maybe +7-+10% haste, but not +20-30% haste as with a full on "everything falling into place"-combo.
2) by making individual niche perks more independant, they become viable in a lot more situations, and by this they should sneak their way into more builds. We all lament the fossilized meta all the time, but thats because people want consistancy from their perks, and not a wild goose chase for a situation that only comes up once every ten games. So probably any killer could slot in a Batteries Included into their 4th perk slot and just play a bit differently then last game, without feeling it like a perk tax or a nuisiance, even though they don't get value from that perk in every chase, but those times they do, its impactful enough to warrant the non-meta approach. And that would be a very good thing.
The Bloodpact playstyle can be fun, but back in the past it wasn't worth it besides some Youtube streamers trying to construct the perfect conditions where 8 perks fall into place and create the absurdest form of synergy, just to break the system. I could see myself and one of my regular Duo SWF friends doing a couple of Bloodpact runs, if all it takes is one perk slot, and not like 4 spread over both out builds. Sure, we would have to run together everywhere, but it might make things fun and shake them up enough to be worth our time. Again, variety is king.
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It's concerning for the game as a whole to have such an approach to balance and this is beyond worrying for the future of perks in dbd.
Are they going to stop with haste or are they going to overall delete the very concept of perk synergy? Are we eventually going to only be allowed one Haste/Hinder perk, one gen regression/speed perk, one chase perk and one stealth perk? This would hurt build freedom a lot.
The kick limit already does a tiny bit of that since Eruption just can't be used with Surge if you don't want to accidentally hit the limit in record time and suddenly have a gen that you're basically forced to concede.
Even if they stopped there, it's still unhealthy, they're going to absolutely have to greatly buff these perks for those to be useful at all. By doing so Killers will essentially have easy access to large haste effects and while limited at one, it will still take only one perk slot. While Survivors will lose a whole niche kind of build, further reinforcing the "use only meta perks" trend and making the game more stale instead of having fun creating a "zooming" build that has like 3 different caveats to even work and requires at least 3 perks.
The fact that (presumably) perks wouldn't even stack with the various basekit Haste/Hinder that certain Killers have is even more limiting (I already hear Clown and Wraith crying in a corner, tons of add-ons invalidating perks and Wesker's infection officially being worthless with any Hinder perks) since that's an entire segment of a Killer's power that's made useless by a perk, why not play a stronger Killer and bring the same perk at that point? Killers shouldn't have part of their kit entirely invalidated by a category of perks, it's enough that some perks simply don't work together or can backfire.
A simple cap to Haste in order to avoid extreme situations where a Survivor can be faster than the Killer would be enough. And that would still allow buffs to Haste perks which are really weak (Dark Theory for example) and open the door to new perks without limiting perk options too much.
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While yes it does remove synergy, it does so with the intention (key word intention, it requires accurate execution) that the perks will be able to stand on their own merits, as haste builds for both Survivor and Killer were gimmicks at best. Removing gimmick synergy that doesn't help you win much in the first place, in order to create more enjoyable perks on their own merits is absolutely the right direction.
There is a fundamental difference from a design standpoint between perks synergizing and perks requiring each other to even have a viable function. I'm totally fine with "haste builds" not being a thing. I'm excited about making builds centered around a single strong haste perk as the keystone of the build.
I WANT there to be only one regression perk if they were all buffed heavily to compensate. This is a really good direction for the game. If you can't stack 4 haste perks or 4 slowdown perks, build diversity goes UP, not down. You have MORE options, and each feel powerful enough to be worth the slot assuming BHVR balances well. And I don't think it's fair to just blindly assume that they won't.
The issue with the current PTB is that not enough perks have been adjusted.
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