http://dbd.game/killswitch
Kaneki main here - I actually think the nerfs are well-thought out and fair. Well done BHVR.
I can tell that BHVR is genuinely trying to do better in regards to balancing instead of Chucky'ing and Skull Merchant'ing everything. The effort shows in Ghoul's changes and I appreciate it.
I will say however that I don't feel like the dash range needed a nerf - just the range in which you can grab survivors needed that two meter reduction, not the power holistically - but otherwise it's honestly fine. It's a good changelist and the character still feels fun to play.
I also want to voice my appreciation for not touching the cancel fatigue. I've voiced multiple times in the past that nerfing the cancel fatigue is a terrible idea because it would disincentivize the Ghoul from using the power in intelligent ways to outmaneuver survivors during a loop. It would really suck if Ghoul was forced to stare at you for 3 seconds after cancelling power (like Legion) so I'm really glad BHVR didn't go this route.
His vaulting speed is also fine and shouldn't be changed and I'm glad it wasn't. Wesker can down you with M2, Kaneki cannot. So the compensation Kaneki has is a faster vault **in order to M1 you** since he can't M2 you at loops. It just takes time to adapt and learn which loops he can catch you at by doing this and which he cannot. It's actually quite binary unless he's Hasted or you're Hindered. It takes time to map it out.
Comments
-
Give BHVR time, theyre still looking for the sweet spot for the Ghoul. Ive not played since it updated but I know even prior to these changes he was absolutely atrocious to go against. Its likely he will need a few more tweaks before hes a challenge for survivors and not a straight roflstomp.
-1 -
I agree, the nerfs might actually make him more fun to play. I cant count the times the stupid autoaim has blocked my bodyblock plays. I disgree on the vault speed though, the pallet speed could definitely use some kind of nerf. After all short loops are meant to counter his power and the current enraged pallet vault is too fast to handle.
-1 -
Nah the fatigue cancel also needs to be increased. Most of these maps have been gutted to have majority dead zones, save for a very few maps. It's incredibly cheap for him to dash across the map at you to take a health state and then dash cancel while you're surrounded by literally nothing since you made no distance.
1 -
It's a really bad idea to nerf his fatigue cancel in any way. He's pretty fair right now after the latest changes anyway.
The whole point of his ability and his skillcap is to dash intelligently to cut off your path, and give you a moment or two to try to get away before he hits you. If you make him take too long before he can hit you, even after playing correctly and performing a good dash, he's going to be piss weak. He's already an M1 killer.
His gameplay loop is to try to cut you off and then down you. It is not designed to "cut you off, stare at you for 3 seconds and let you get somewhere safe before he can hit you". That's not only unfair to him since he can't down you directly with his power anyway, it's also dumb to play against. You're asking for something dumb to play against. You're trying to push him away from using his power in funny ways while chasing you.
I really feel for BHVR here because the community often does not actually know what they're asking for. BHVR clearly seems to have the right ideas though, because they correctly did not touch the cancel fatigue and the enraged vault.
As I said, it just takes time to learn where to kite him towards. If the enraged vault means he can catch you with the M1, that just means you can't run that loop while he's enraged and while he can see you to vault at you.
There ARE loops wide enough where his enraged vault does not lead into an eventual M1. My point is just that it takes time to figure out which loops you should or should not run while he is enraged. The vault speed is the way it is because he needs to M1 you. Wesker's vault is slower because he can M2 you, so they slow down his vault to prevent him from just abusing it to catch you with an M1 if you're outmaneuvering his power around a pallet.
It wouldn't make any sense balance-wise if Kaneki's enraged vault was too slow because you'd just play Wesker instead. There are fundamental reasons why Wesker's vault takes longer and Kaneki's is shorter.
The character feels perfectly fine now. I think it's fair for both sides and no further changes are needed.
-3 -
With wesker though, he is unlikely to M2 you at tighter filler loops which are often round and too short to set up a hit with. His vault largely serves as a counter to god pallets/vaults and has some niche use cases on loops like shack with mindgames. My point being that wesker is countered by tight loops, and his vault does not perform highly on them.
This is unlike kaneki, who is quite adept at longer loops and denies distance better than most killers in the game. he is countered, like wesker, by using weaker tight loops to effectively make him an m1 killer who has to play the tile normally. it isnt like he'd be weak at such loops even if he had no vault, because he could spend the time getting the pallet down, break it, then catch up a few seconds later for the hit if theres no nearby loop. Combine this gameplay with the enraged pallet vault and the survivor is placed with a lose-lose on many loops, where dropping the pallet basically results in a free hit a lot of the time. I say this as someone who was a wesker main before becoming a kaneki main.
Maybe they shouldnt touch the vault speed itself but the weird tech where you grapple to the survivor across the pallet to vault it, forcing them to stand still while you travel and hindering them after. I have seen clips where this tech results in the survivor getting hit in shack over god pallet after dropping it and going to the window. Im not sure how strong the vault is without this strategy because its basically the only way I vault but with it is certainly too powerful and is very reminiscent of old chucky who could do basicaly the same thing, even without using his power afterwards. I dont want the vault gutted or anything but it does need some slight changes.I definitely agree on the cancel fatigue. If they'd touched that I would have never played him again ;-;
1 -
Maybe they shouldnt touch the vault speed itself but the weird tech where you grapple to the survivor across the pallet to vault it, forcing them to stand still while you travel and hindering them after. I have seen clips where this tech results in the survivor getting hit in shack over god pallet after dropping it and going to the window. Im not sure how strong the vault is without this strategy because its basically the only way I vault but with it is certainly too powerful and is very reminiscent of old chucky who could do basicaly the same thing, even without using his power afterwards. I dont want the vault gutted or anything but it does need some slight changes.
I agree but only to a certain extent. Instead of hindering the survivor or freezing them, I would rather just have a faster vault so that you achieve the same exact result but without the strange or janky-feeling interactions. As I said, fundamentally, Wesker's vault is slower so that he can't just shrug and be like "okay, I can't M2 you so I'll just M1 you for free instead." Kaneki doesn't have the option of M2'ing to down you in the first place, so he has to vault faster. Plus it's only when he's enraged, and only when you're directly on the other side and in line of sight.
-1 -
I agree that he should vault faster I just feel this is too fast. I don't think any killer should vault that fast, from trapper to nurse as it just creates unfun gameplay with little input from the survivor or killer the get hits. Dropping a pallet should always the survivor some distance, as they've chosen to consume a resource to do so. Having any killer or ability that completely negates that is, in my opinion, bad design.
And on the topic of enraged mode itself, even with the nerfs kaneki with likely have it most of the match and especially during chase considering it doesnt go down while their still deep wounded. I would 100% agree with your sentiment if enraged mode was something more on par with blood fury, which is itself a resource to be earned and managed. And while enraged mode isnt his default state or anything, on open (most) maps getting enraged will not be a major challenge despite the hitbox changes.
The only reliable way a team can deny enraged mode, and in my opinion the most effective kaneki counterplay, is to stealth around enough that he cant find you to begin with to get enraged (but the abundance of aura perks, escpecially on mobility killers like him challenges this).Anyway I've got to go now so if you choose to reply to me (thank you) I wont be able to reply back for ~1h, thank you for the discussion!
1 -
Dropping a pallet creates a wall, which only by extension may create distance. Killer powers that bypass this are not inherently broken. You can argue that Nurse inherently breaks the game, because she does, but even she has counterplay.
I think we should be willing to shakeup the game's core fundamentals with new character releases. Kaneki does it in a fair and balanced way in my opinion because dropping a pallet doesn't necessarily have to always and predictably be "I gain distance on you for sure no matter who you're playing or what you do" because that makes the game trite and dull.
And on the topic of enraged mode itself, even with the nerfs kaneki with likely have it most of the match and especially during chase considering it doesnt go down while their still deep wounded. I would 100% agree with your sentiment if enraged mode was something more on par with blood fury, which is itself a resource to be earned and managed. And while enraged mode isnt his default state or anything, on open (most) maps getting enraged will not be a major challenge despite the hitbox changes.
The only reliable way a team can deny enraged mode, and in my opinion the most effective kaneki counterplay, is to stealth around enough that he cant find you to begin with to get enraged (but the abundance of aura perks, escpecially on mobility killers like him challenges this).
You aren't supposed to be easily able to evade the first hit of his power. The reason why it's so dangerous is because it cannot down you, so it gives him a lot of effects. The vault is merely to help facilitate this in certain angles (because you need to be able to see them) on certain loops (because you won't land the M1 on all of them) and only when enraged (which is the core of his power.) His enraged mode has easy access because it's where most of the killer's design is and because it's nonlethal. Making it a finite resource won't solve as many problems as it will create. Lowering the duration already reduces the overall length of time that Kaneki is especially deadly during a trial while also forcing more non-lethal power hits to regain it.
-2
