Nerf for Ghoul is required
There are a few key issues with this killer:
1. Mobility around hooks:
I have never seen that many campers since the facecamper Bubba ages. With his leaps the Ghoul can interrupt any unhook easily without loosing too much pressure. His power should not work without downside around hooks. The dredge for example get's a short cooldown when using the remnant around hooks and can't enter lockers beside hooks. So I suggest leaps either have a cooldown around hooks where the Ghoul cannot attack or the Ghoul cannot leap at all in a 16 meter radius around the hook. Also if the Ghoul enters the 16 meter radius his enraged mode should be canceled.
2. Canceling power
I think this part of his power was not thought through well.
The Ghoul can leap very far distances, even leap in front of a survivor enabling a bodyblock from a ressource and if he then cancels power the survivor has nothing to work with. Now this may sound like an tech or something you need to learn but it is not hard to do at all. So basically you cannot run him on weak tiles and never in the open. The fact that he can cross that much distance possibly bodyblock and instantly attack makes it quite impossible for most players to make a play.
Here I suggest a longer cooldown after canceling power before the ghoul can attack again. Much like blight cooldown. Simply seeing that the Ghoul is comming your direction with the visual indicator is not much help.
3. Hitbox
The hitboxes or action windows of the Ghoul are very forgiving. A lot of hits I have seen so far were beyond reason. Either a wall a pallet or entire buildings being in the path the Ghould still hits its target. You don't even really need to aim for a survivor because the window is just that forgiving.
I suggest decreasing the action window and decreasing hitbox possibilities.
If dbd is about skill then the Ghoul is bypassing this a little bit. People with thousands of hours getting killed fast by low experienced killers is a strong indicator that the system is tilted.
Comments
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Honestly, for all the rants about the Ghoul, this is one of the most levelheaded and productive ones I have read so far. Its true, nearly every killer has some kind of system in place that limits the use of their power around hooks in order to prevent camping and hook farming, but the Ghouls power is unrestraint in any way and you really feel this with how most Ghouls return to the hook like clockwork and get right back into the mix. Though from my own experience with playing the Ghoul, most players just book it after the unhook and I have been left with untold number of cases, were i couldn't find the unhooker and was only left with the blood trail of the unhooked. Even though the Ghoul is strong, he is not an autowin by any mean and in this current state of the game, one slip can mean 2 getting done without any opposition. So if the unhooking survivor fails to protect the unhooked one, even if I don't like to I sometimes had to tunnel and slug, just to create pressure.
The power canceling, I am very torn about. Right now its the highest form of skill expression with the Ghoul, swinging in around a corner and cancel, ready to slay! Thats so cool! But it also leaves survivors with nothign to work with and thats uncool, I know that feeling myself. It is a fine line to walk, because if you miss your cancel window, you are stranded in a potentially strong loop with no opportunity to catch up to the survivor and you just waste a lot of time, if the cancel animation would be longer and more punishing, this would even dwindle down the opportunity were a Ghoul can make cool plays with his power and in the overwhelming number of cases his power couldn't be used to gain an upper hand in any case, only to traverse the map and initiate a chase. Thats what people meant when they said "Ghoul is just an M1 player with high mobility". Right now thats not true, but its a fina edge to make the power utterly unusable in chase.
This might all be inflated because of the current event, were even in a good match gens fly like crazy and even good Ghoul players have to be on their toes. I lost many games simply by not sealing the deal on a survivor on death hook and letting them get away this one time, because the current event is so abyssmally stacked against the killer with the ticking clock of the blood gens in the back.
The hit box of the Ghouls power will forever be a red flag and at this point there is nothing BHVR can realistically do about it. I can understand why they made the power hit scan, because at this ranges and with the latency we got in the game it would be unrealistic to use this part of the power, but that the animation plays the instant the game detects a hit just leads to all this aweful moments where surivors get stuck by tantacles through walls, rocks, even entire buildings and that of course feels cheap as hell. At the very least BHVR could maybe shrink the hit box a little bit, as right now there is a 50cm aura around a survivor that will register the hit. When I let two survivors go in one of my last games I played around with the hit box and it really is very generous.
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I totally agree I can even vote for you for President VOTES UP BECAUSE THIS GUY SPEAKING FACTS
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or we just suck at the game and still in bronze
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The problem with this statement of opinion here is that we're facing brand new players who have never played before and losing miserably to them because of how The Ghoul is currently set up. I have almost 2k hours in the game and would consider myself a rather decent player. My boyfriend isn't that far behind me in playtime and would be comp level if there were such a thing for dbd. Our matches against new killer players don't last very long, and we have no problem looping them for a couple of motors before we end up getting downed because we've exhausted resources in the area. We can both take a chase each and get out with us being the o ly two hooked the entire match. With The Ghoul, the match is over in a matter of minutes because there's not a lot of availability to counterplay with how he's currently set up. I think he's a really cool killer (and overplayed right now, but that's understandable), but he's more effective than a basement Bubba against a fresh batch of survivors that don't know any better.
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Here I suggest a longer cooldown after canceling power before the ghoul can attack again.
Nerfing the power cancel fatigue is the worst possible thing you can do.
What you're asking for here, is going to be the WORST POSSIBLE VERSION of this killer because you'd disincentivize using his power in interesting, skillful ways, basically shoehorning him into only using it when he's guaranteed to catch up on you, with zero risk-taking from the player's part. You're asking him to be weaker than Legion while simultaneously being more boring. They can't increase the downtime after his leap without just turning him into Diet Legion.
The whole point of his ability and his skillcap is to dash intelligently to cut off your path, and give you a moment or two to try to get away before he hits you. If you make him take too long before he can hit you, even after playing correctly and performing a good dash, he's going to be piss weak. He's already an M1 killer.
His gameplay loop is to try to cut you off and then down you. It is NOT designed to "cut you off, stare at you for 3 seconds and let you get somewhere safe before he can hit you". That's not only unfair to him since he can't down you directly with his power anyway, it's also dumb to play against. You're asking for something dumb to play against. You're trying to push him away from using his power in funny ways while chasing you.
Asking for this change belies a massive, fundamental misunderstanding of the game.
I also want to take this time to remind everyone that they already removed interesting plays from his power going from PTB to Live. For those unaware, you could actually hug tech with Kaneki on the PTB, sliding *against* obstacles and around to the other side. This allowed you to catch people off-guard very easily at Killer Shack for example. They already nerfed his power's lethality while looping. Trust me when I say you really don't actually want this killer to only ever use his power between loops just because you want him to stare at you for 3 seconds every time he cancels his power.
Unlike Blight and Wesker, all Kaneki can do to down you is mindgame you with a melee attack or outmaneuver you with his dashes. He cannot down you with his power so increasing the duration of his cancel fatigue will wreck the killer completely. What will he have to fall back on? His ability to injure? Legion does that better. ######### Legion.
This character is fundamentally not designed to stare at you for a year after cancelling power. They already removed his ability to hugtech shack and windows with his power. Wesker can dash into you and make you call him daddy, Blight can dash into you and inject you with meth, Kaneki has to ACTUALLY OUTMANEUVER you and block you from reaching important resources and he deserves to be rewarded for that. You can lower his movement speed while aiming the power so he has to think quickly, and you can lower the range in which he can target survivors with the pounce so he has to move more precisely, but you CANNOT touch the cancel fatigue duration or you will make the character extremely binary.
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This is so sad he just released and you already have complaints it's like you wrote this years ago
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I've had no problems facing the Ghoul. This is most definitely a skill issue.
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I dont 100% disagree with your points here, but I believe the only change needed is the power grab vault speed needs to be reduced. It is literally a stronger version of Chuckys old manual pallet scamper.
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I got to be honest calling the kagune leaps highest form of skill is not really a good statement to me.
I took a few turns with him and to me leaping right next to survivors or in front of them cutting them off from ressources was pretty easy.
High skill moves to me are long distance prediction blinks from nurse, oni 180's, crossmap hatches from huntress. The leap's however are basically a blight dash but you don't have to be precise about it and you cannot dotch it with a tech like corner tech or crouching.
Overall this killer is pretty easy to control and that is paired with his high mobilty and the abiltity to injure survivors fast pretty strong.
However the Ghoul just got its first set of nerfs and we will have to see how that plays out.-3 -
Lots of salt in this statement.
However I stand by that. The fatigue after canceling the power is too low. There is no risk in leaping close to a survivor. Worst thing that can happen is you misclick and end up 5 meters off. Not even enough distance to make it to another loop on half the maps.
His mobilty is too high to justify that short cooldown.
You are as fast as blight and ask for no cooldown. While blight rushes can be dodged an m1 cannot (or only if you manage to spin the killer which rarely ever works against experienced killers).
His power is basically for mobilty and fast injuries, not for free downs-4 -
2. Cant agree with cooldowns, this will affect him very badly, change to Enrage itself will solve his issues. Like make enrage something he should earn? Like oni's ability? Oni can and possible will came back to the hook if someone rescue while he is in power, billy and blight can do this too to interrupt the survivior.
But as i see 3 dashes is a bit too much for him.
Enrage should be earnable to make him fair, not just im comming, press secondary power and you die. (No ma how and what you are did)
Ghoul with 2 dashes is easier to avoid, rather than 3.
Ghoul can make a mistake but shortly can erase it while Enraged.
His pallet vaults still a problem/
1. But camping is that you should prevent, if you face the "right" ghoul.
Im just ended in the situations like, i hooked someone, travel throgh map, dont see anybody, dude that was hooked was rescued after short period of time, i came back because i dont want to waste time to find someone else and: (THEY ARE HEALED RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE HOOK!) "O no you are camper because you didnt allowed us to heal! GKYS!" (Guys and girls! Ghoul have free injuries, he have great mobility, just when you just got saved, dont waste time RUN AWAY from the hook as far as you can!)
As a survivior same picture dudes just refuse to came with me after rescue :(3. Hitboxes, reducing time to make a grab with his indicator have its effect, sometimes i miss just because i cant react with 0,18 sec to hit the button. And just lose lose, or even if i hit and kagune just breaks off at corners, or obstacles. (AND ITS FINE THIS IS HOW THIS HAVE TO BE!) This change need more time for players to learn how to use its advantage.
(Yep still ghoul just got nerfed, but it didnt change anything. Devs dont have time to tweak him again, and i think its useless to write here something about him. Mb after or even in FNAF release we ll get his last nerfs…)
(This is my opinion you might disagree with it, its fine. For the record IM NOT a killer nether survivior main. I play both. For a long time.)
K:"Love the ghoul love his playstyle, he was changed but it affect only console players."
S:"Devs need more time, to tweak or rework him into something different. I hope his playstyle will be changed into something more fun than this."-1 -
Dude, you totally misread my post, I didn't called Kagune Leaps itselt the highest form of skill, like in the game at all, but that good Kagune Leaps are the highest form of skill expression as a Ghoul player right now.
Everyone can just do three leaps in succession and cross the map in seconds in order to pressure someone over there, but that is just strong map mobility, thats not some clever use of your power of expression of skill. But when you leap in front of a survivor cancel your power in time to intercept them, while blocking the shack window and letting them run frantically into you, hoping to wriggle through, or slide around a corner and come to rest just an inch in front of the pallet that the survivor wanted to reach, THAT is not your everyday play, that is some cool skill expression and completely on par with the long distance Nurse blinks or crossmap hatchets, that only can happen with experience. BTW, Oni 180 are 100% a thing of the past and won't come back, as they were patched out as a "never intented" bug.
But coming back to Kaneki, all this skillful part of his kit is very dependant on the timely canceling of his power and getting to the survivor before they can gain too much distance. Its why Chuckies original scamper was strong (too strong), but Weskers leap over pallets is nothing to write home about and unable to procure a hit in anything but a very specific number of loops. If Kanekis power canceling is nerfed too much, then he will be unable to use his power in chase at all and be left with just a high mobility killer that can relocate fast, but nothing else to fear from. Thats what I meant when I mean its a very delicate balance and easy to make or break him.
I kinda hate how the breaking of a pallet sends him into cooldown, which works good with his kit, but now a lot of people talk about applying this mechanic as a blanket mechanic to all movement or dash killers. We saw the same with the killers terror radius a while back, when before some killers had a unique terror radius, but then everyone got the same one, and for example Pig suffered a lot because of this, but over time we saw that sometimes it makes sense to ditch a "one size fits all" approach in favor of going with what the killers unique power and kit bring to the table and what playstyles they demand.
Imagine if Kanekis power cancel had a cooldown comparable to Wesker pulling away his tentacle after he vault: you couldn't use Kanekis power in chase or around loops at all and were just left with one option: disrepect the pallet and just bullrush after the survivor and wait for the inevitable stun, as finesse had no part of your kit anymore.
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My only nerf NO MORE HITTING THROUGH WALLS. Its cheap and makes the game not rewarding since all your look for is if you can hit doesnt matter if it should be a hit.
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His pallet vaults still a problem/
Any reduction to the vault speed would be detrimental to the character. He needs to vault fast because his power is nonlethal. If you make him slower he's just a Legion that injures far more slowly and moves around the map more quickly.
Let's take Wesker for example.Wesker can down you with M2, Kaneki cannot. So the compensation Kaneki has is a faster vault in order to M1 you since he can't M2 you at loops. It just takes time to adapt and learn which loops he can catch you at by doing this and which he cannot. It's actually quite binary unless he's Hasted or you're Hindered. It takes time to map it out.
It just takes time to learn where to kite him towards. If the enraged vault means he can catch you with the M1, that just means you can't run that loop while he's enraged and while he can see you to vault at you.
There ARE loops wide enough where his enraged vault does not lead into an eventual M1. My point is just that it takes time to figure out which loops you should or should not run while he is enraged. The vault speed is the way it is because he needs to M1 you. Wesker's vault is slower because he can M2 you, so they slow down his vault to prevent him from just abusing it to catch you with an M1 if you're outmaneuvering his power around a pallet.
It wouldn't make any sense balance-wise if Kaneki's enraged vault was too slow because you'd just play Wesker instead. There are fundamental reasons why Wesker's vault takes longer and Kaneki's is shorter.
If Kaneki's enraged vault was any slower there'd be no reason to use it most of the time. Just play Wesker instead. They don't want to make another Legion where the power is 99% useless in the loop itself. They don't want to make another C or B tier killer.
If you want to reduce Kaneki's vault speed, what are you willing to give him back in return? How would you compensate his kit? Because right now after his latest changes he's fine. We don't want another killer like Legion who is only able to use their power (you know, the fun part of playing Killer) outside of chase. They already took away Kaneki's ability to hugtech around walls from the PTB. They already nerfed his power's chase ability before he went to the Live servers. The compensation they made for removing the hugtech was speeding up his enraged vault.
The vault speed is not an issue. He needs to be enraged, and needs to have direct line of sight on you, and needs to be directly on the other side of a pallet or window. It has counterplay. You can loop in such a way to deny the vault by staying out of sight or just making you aren't directly opposite of him. People are complaining because of a failure to adapt - people are used to the Killer being directly opposite of them being a good thing. Which, again, is what Kaneki is meant to shake up. New character releases are meant to shake up the status quo of the game. As I said earlier, it takes time to learn which loops he can vault and eventually catch up to hit you at, and which he cannot. The only variables are whether or not either of you are hasted/hindered (and that's fine because those mechanics exist for that specific purpose anyway, to make the game less predictable.)
Keep in mind the vault also takes all of his power tokens, so you can chain the loop if there's another one close enough because he won't have cooldowns available to chase after you. If he Enrage vaults on you, at a small loop where he can M1 you, and there's no tile close by that you can run to before he catches up to you…well, he gets you. He's supposed to. There are other killers that are also deadly when you're out in the open.
It's either "he can vault and hit you" or "he can't vault and hit you".
The character feels perfectly fine now. I think it's fair for both sides and no further changes are needed.
Post edited by Leon_Loves_Cheryl on3 -
maybe is me just not getting used to all the new ins and outs, but tonight every game with the Ghoul felt miserable: I was constantly getting into the grab cooldown when my Kagune failed to hold on to something (why is that even a thing?), before I felt like Spiderman, traversing the map in agile leaps and bounds, now i feel like a fat toat on a string, getting pulled along before flopping to the ground, and with the bite you now have to be extremely precise and I have gone for three chases back to back were I got no chance to get enraged.
I guess thats it and we nerfed another killer into oblivion.
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was constantly getting into the grab cooldown when my Kagune failed to hold on to something
I agree. They should remove that. It would be a huge quality of live change for him. I would also love to see a option in the settings to make his crosshair permanent. At the moment I struggle to know where it will pop up and get confused. PC players can already do it so why not add something like that to console?!
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its not like the Ghoul is now unplayable, but he now definitely is no S-Rank contender anymore. I have a hard time visualising what the hitbox for the bite now looks like, but before it was like a big halo around the survivors and with that reduced by 94% I have no idea if it is now just the torso? A bit more? A bit less? Some visual aid would be welcomed.
And yeah, the grab is the most annoying change by far. The missing 3m if you used the add-on lead to countless missed grabs accompanied by a short miss animation, and I really don't understand why this is a thing - if its for the bite, okay, maybe, but for the map mobility, I don't get it.
The one defining feature of all killers is sadly, that they are balanced around being much more sluggish and less responsive then survivors. If you ever take a brake from DBD and play a normal FPS shooter, you might be blown away by how snappy and responsive you can move. I guess this is a requirement to sell the "big, stompy, brute killer" and give the "small, yet clever and agile survivor" a leg up, but in cases like this it only sours the experience.
The Spiderman time was like magic and I am happy that I experienced it, but I guess thats it and the chances are pretty low of ever getting that back.
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Dude, wesker can and will punish you if you did a pre drop and in that moment he used his dash.Kaneki dc, he'll vault any way.
Even his grab for some reason can stuck you in place if you dont have kagune mark. SO HE CAN DOWN you with m2. Right now with these "nerfs" HE CAN. Before he just injure you, now he can vault after you and in that moment you STUCK, if you are a bit away from a pallet you droped.So there is a decision, stay in and get injure, and possible wont get downed, or walk a bit away and STUCK in place when ghoul trying to bite you and get downed any way.
Even with MFT you barely have distance to make it, if he vault after you. If you are not injured you are cooked.
This guy dont have any sence to stay in the game like this.
He must suffer like every other killer does.
Kaneki wasnt made with sence, he was rushed. Easy power to get value. One "Gang/band" had the simillar problem.(Legion)
Even hillbilly, my boy have some hard things to learn. You just cant pressing m2 over and over again, overdrive can ruin some things. But he is still beter than kaneki for me.
Because Kaneki was born to be skullmerchant, his kit is doomed to be nerfed until he will turn into trash. Sad to admit that. Ehh… bipolar forum there you can offer your suggestion, but there is 1000-7 mains, that will downvote you for it, and say that you re on one side or another, even if you opinion was liked, in another post same opinion will be doomed.
He wont stay like this for long. No one will. Game should be about surviviors who's escaping. And another player as a Killer dont need to be there. Waiting when killer bots will be added…-3 -
Why are you talking like it's a bad thing that his anti-pallet grief can down someone? That's the whole point. It doesn't count as a power that can down you if you need to disrespect the killer at a vault for it to work. The mechanic literally only exists to prevent griefing. Complaining about getting downed by a vault power is ridiculous. Don't disrespect the killer at the pallet/window and you'll be perfectly fine. Don't play dumb and you won't be downed by the power.
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I mean you drop pallet or you vault it, you die. Thats not how it should work. Pallets exist to give distance for surviviors, and when 1 killer breaks this game logic, thats not good. He will be nerfed.
Wesker suffers from longer cooldown after vault, but still can punish some pallets, chucky cant turn 180 so you can run a side one or another to prevent getting hit by s&d/
Legion cant down you.
This guy dont suffer at all, which means this is a problem.0 -
"Nearly every killer"? The killers affected are the few that either don't need it, or are not super strong. Bubba should be, but isn't, same with Billy, Trickster, Huntress, Deathslinger, Nurse, Blight… Do I even need to continue? only like 20% of the roster has their power disable near hook, when well over 50% of them should have it.
As for Ghoul Specifically, he is stronger than Nurse. Why? Well, you don't need more than a few hours to know how he works and get a 4k every game. Nurse takes a LOT of time to master, her skill ceiling is astronomical, her skill floor is also pretty high up. Her skill floor is higher than the Ghoul's Skill CEILING!!! Power Canceling should not exist! Or it has a hefty cool down like Legion has. His power should be mobility and injury at max, and speaking of injury, they should not have the freest injury in the entire game. He should also not FREEZE THE SURVIVOR IN PLACE when they get hit. The only way to circumvent this is when vaulting. And speaking of vaulting, they should NOT be able to grab a survivor to vault a pallet, or it should give the survivor a speed boost so they can counter it. Lastly, Ghoul needs a rework of their add-ons. Hide's Headphones should apply a TIMED Oblivious once Deep Wounds is MENDED. Also, Endurance should still work in deep wounds, but it cuts the timer in half, to counter killers that bypass the mechanic, like Ghoul, Slinger, and Legion.-3 -
Can we just leave the ghoul alone please? He's already been nerfed hard TWICE now... anymore, then ppl will start complaining about a buff, then a nerf again. The cycle won't end
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Im sorry but "ghoul stronger then nurse" in his current nerfed state is insane skill issue.... you want some tips against him?
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He's not even that nerfed. If you know how he works, you can easily 4k every game. He just gets his free injury, waits for his power to regen, then flies right up on your butt and cancels his power, free down.
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"Skill issue. Just learn how to loop him."
I've tried. Even at the small, crappy loops that people say are a hard counter for Ghoul. With MfT Haste and Resilience, hugging the loop as tightly as possible. It doesn't matter. I vault the pallet, I get grabbed, and they vault the pallet so fast that I can't even make it back around a little 2-second loop fast enough to get over the pallet, I get downed mid-vault. Best luck I've had is looping Main Building at Toba. I've had a few leave me. Sometimes I flat-out screw up, and then there are the times when I'm running a loop perfectly, but the Killer is really experienced which would be fine except for the insane fast vault if they grab you over one while Enraged (which is all the time) and the borderline nonexistent cooldown to M1 after they cancel their power. I'm willing to admit when I screw up a chase and I do... a lot. What I'm not a fan of is running a loop as well as humanly possible and still getting downed in 30 seconds because of two mechanics that are still absolutely broken in chase.
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